I am a Victim of Fraud! Please Help "n" Advise

[zayedee]

Hi to all,

 

Last week I sold a Nokia 8800 Aston Martin Edition phone via Email accepting T/T bank transfer payment.

 

Right, thas is how it goes...

 

I have a business of selling items on ebay and hence the above mentioned phone was listed on Ebay so a guy contacted me via email asking that "if I would agree to sell the phone to him for which he will make the payment of £412.00 by wire transfer T/T as he does not have an ebay or paypal account" to this I agreed.

 

As per our agreement I immediately checked my account on line and after seeing my account being credited with £412.00, I posted the item and provided him with the tracking no. of the parcel.

 

...till before this payment I had around £30 in my acc. and after receiving this I spent some of it the next day...

 

However 4 day's later when I tried to pay for something with my card (at my local store), it got declined so I got home and tried to log onto my internet banking which was also declind access to.

 

So I decided to pop into my "HSBC" branch the following day and had a meeting with customer service manager,

 

who told me that "the money (£412.00) which was credited into my account was done so without the authorization of the individual from whos acc. it came (in other word's it was a fraud) and hence it was reversed out of my acc. (without my permission or authorization ) which left my acc. with £230.00 overdrawn resulting in my account to be suspended and that is why I was not being able to use my acc. or card and as a result I HAVE LOST THE £412.00 AND ON TOP I WILL HAVE TO PAY FROM MY SIDE TO BRING BACK MY ACC. TO £00.000 OVERDRAWN.

 

Remember they did not conatct me to inform anything relating to this fraud in my acc.

 

Above all...THEY SAID i HAVE TO PROVE THAT i WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THIS FRAUD!!!

 

Lastly, after some talikng with them they agreed to re-activating my acc.

 

So my concern is that: Do I have a ground to demand my money £412.00 back from HSBC bank or not, and if not then at the least to waive the £230.00 overdrawn from me??????

 

I would greatly appreciate any advice from anyone with some knowledge in this regard.Thanks

 

Best regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lateralus]

even though this was hsbc - i truly feel you would get a more experienced response in the debt section - saying that. i would have thought that there was a whole thing in place to deal with this as it is like using a credit card - there is a certain amount of insurance to cover transactions.

my suggestion is to post here:General Consumer Issues

also, i seem to remember that one of the moderators - Martin3030 - is pretty good with some of this stuff - so I'd pm him with this and see what he says. hth

[zayedee]

Hi to all,

 

Last week I sold a Nokia 8800 Aston Martin Edition phone via Email accepting T/T bank transfer payment.

 

Right, thas is how it goes...

 

I have a business of selling items on ebay and hence the above mentioned phone was listed on Ebay so a guy contacted me via email asking that "if I would agree to sell the phone to him for which he will make the payment of £412.00 by wire transfer T/T as he does not have an ebay or paypal account" to this I agreed.

 

As per our agreement I immediately checked my account on line and after seeing my account being credited with £412.00, I posted the item and provided him with the tracking no. of the parcel.

 

...till before this payment I had around £30 in my acc. and after receiving this I spent some of it the next day...

 

However 4 day's later when I tried to pay for something with my card (at my local store), it got declined so I got home and tried to log onto my internet banking which was also declind access to.

 

So I decided to pop into my "HSBC" branch the following day and had a meeting with customer service manager,

 

who told me that "the money (£412.00) which was credited into my account was done so without the authorization of the individual from whos acc. it came (in other word's it was a fraud) and hence it was reversed out of my acc. (without my permission or authorization ) which left my acc. with £230.00 overdrawn resulting in my account to be suspended and that is why I was not being able to use my acc. or card and as a result I HAVE LOST THE £412.00 AND ON TOP I WILL HAVE TO PAY FROM MY SIDE TO BRING BACK MY ACC. TO £00.000 OVERDRAWN.

 

Remember they did not conatct me to inform anything relating to this fraud in my acc.

 

Above all...THEY SAID i HAVE TO PROVE THAT i WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THIS FRAUD!!!

 

Lastly, after some talikng with them they agreed to re-activating my acc.

 

So my concern is that: Do I have a ground to demand my money £412.00 back from HSBC bank or not, and if not then at the least to waive the £230.00 overdrawn from me??????

 

I would greatly appreciate any advice from anyone with some knowledge in this regard.Thanks

 

Best regards

 

 

[buzby]

The short answer is , NO. The bank as no option but to refund any credit made once it has established that a genuine fraud has taken place - it does not require permission of any sort. It's not clear from your post whether you also completed the eBay sale normally, or completed the transaction 'off eBay', in which case you have no protection.

 

Was the buyer in the UK or overseas? If the latter, then there is probably little chance of you recovering your money, but there might be a chance to have the item returned via the carriers IF they've not delivered it.

[ddvmor]

Here's my two pence worth. I work as a fraud investigator in the fraud department of a major cough bank cough!

 

In my experience, the bank's obligations are slightly different to buzby's interpretation.

 

The bank that made the fraudulent payment is obliged to refund their customer as they have made a payment outside mandate (good phrase that... make a note!). It does not neccessarily follow that HSBC are obliged to return the funds to the originating bank. There's no legislation that requires them to do so. They can choose to do so if they believe that Zayadee was a party to the fraud, but they take the risk that Z is innocent and will then make a counter claim on them for making a payment outside mandate from his/her account. Z has changed his/her position, assuming correctly that the funds are cleared and available for use and the 'refund' has left him/her disadvantaged.

 

I would suggest a polite but firm letter to the chairman of HSBC stating that as HSBC has paid outside mandate without the customer's permission and disadvantaged Z, that an immediate refund should be made to return the account to the position that it was in befiore HSBC made their mistake.

 

It's also worth mentioning that a review of Z's account will show a salary, direct debits and normal spending which demonstarates that the account was not opened for the puroses of fraud. Including a print of the eBay auction and any correspondence between you and the buyer should satisfactorily demonstrate that, as far as you were concerned, the transaction was a genuine one.

 

Hope this helps.

 

P.S. - hope you don't mind me shortening your name to 'Z'. I'm very lazy!

[buzby]

The arbiter in this situation isn't solely that the the originating bank recalled the funds and that HSBC couldn't do this unless it suspected the customer of fraud. BACS provide defined 'windows' where payments can be refunded, there is an opportunity within 5 days that a reversal can be called for and the beneficiary has no say in the matter.

 

What you have outlined is attempting to convince the bank that the reversal should not impact on the recipient. This is all well and good, but is at the DISCRETION of the bank, and there is no guarantee this will be exercised. The OP asked if the bank could do a reversal without agreement or authorisation, the answer remains 'yes'. However after the initial period expires, it cannot do it automatically.

[CAGisforME]

Buzby is quite correct.

 

It would be interesting to note which bank the transfer came FROM.

 

In my experience working for a cough bank cough the "window" in which the funds haven't officially "cleared" via transfer is shorter if the initiating bank is the same as the recipient account. (Normally only 24 hours).

 

I would suggest writing and claiming that the payment was taken outside of mandate, as you never know what may be thrown up. However, don't get your hopes up too high as the bank IS within it's rights to remove the money within this "window".

 

If, when it is investigated, (as it should be if you complain) it turns out the money was taken out outside this window then you would have grounds for a more serious complaint and grounds to expect the account to be put back in the position it was in.

 

I would suggest keeping all the emails etc pertaining to this "sale" and the name/address you were given by the "buyer" etc to hand over to the bank, that way you show yourself to be co-operating fully with their fraud investigation and can show categorically that you were not involved in perpetrating the fraud.

 

This is, unfortunately, a lesson learned about selling "off ebay" and therefore negating all recourse to protection that you would have had.

 

I do hope it works out for you.

 

[Movingon]

Just to note, all the documentation you read on eBay regarding how to sell and how to do business makes it quite clear that dealing with parties outside of eBay, when the item is listed on eBay, is a Very Bad Idea™. You are repeatedly advised as you go through the auction process and the online help has a whole section dealing with this.

 

It is possible you could be returned to the condition you were in before but it may be that you will have to return the items you bought (if they were items) with the money for a part refund; which you will only get on a goodwill basis.

[Guest Gertie100]

Having read a lot of similar stories on here about payments being reversed etc can someone confirm when is it safe to assume that the money won't be taken back out of your account for what ever reason?

 

If I want to sell something on ebay how long after the transaction before you can spend the money without worrying?

[Movingon]

Someone earlier in this thread suggested 5 days but I've no idea for sure.

[Guest Gertie100]

Think I might steer clear!

[CAGisforME]

Bank Transfer, like all methods of accepting payment, demands caution from both sides.

 

If the Bank Transfer goes "in-house" - ie Barclays to Barclays for example, then the transfer occurs the same day, and the following day the money should not be able to be removed unless a fraud on behalf of the RECIPIENT can be proven.

 

Theoretically once you have made a transfer you cannot reverse it. However, should you see a transfer that you did not initiate leaving your account you would normally have a small window in which to stop it.

 

However, if you have received money in to your account from a bank other than your own (Barclays to HSBC for instance) then this window is longer (5 days is about right).

 

Note that I have used the words "However", "Theoretically" and "should" etc. This really is down to the bank to clarify their position and they can, to a certain extent, exercise their discretion.

 

In THIS particular case someone has received goods and not paid and has, in my opinion, gained goods by deception. As the phone was posted off and there is a DEFINATE paper trail with the recipient bank the Police should be informed and a FULL investigation should take place. In this way the recipient can show that they did not perpetrate the fraud or illicit funds by deception, however the recipient of the 'phone would have a hard time explaining themselves to the Police.

 

 

In my opinion this is a big problem for folks such as myself who trade on ebay. Do we take Paypal and risk the old "Credit Card Chargeback" game, or take Bank Transfer and hold the goods until the "window - as decided by the bank" has closed?

 

With regard to ebay protection, as the payment was by BT it would only have been covered by ebays Standard Protection and therefore only just over £100 would have been recoverable.

 

Bank transfer is my preferred method of receiving payments BECAUSE it leaves the paper trail that I referred to earlier.

 

 

Think about it.......The phone was posted to a name and address. The bank account that SENT the money is traceable and so, if there is ANY connection between the name and address sent to and the bank account then it's up to the bank (and the police) to question whether this transfer was CORRECTLY reversed.

[CAGisforME]

Having read a lot of similar stories on here about payments being reversed etc can someone confirm when is it safe to assume that the money won't be taken back out of your account for what ever reason?

 

If I want to sell something on ebay how long after the transaction before you can spend the money without worrying?

 

 

It is NOT common for Bank Transfers to be reversed. (You may be referring to Paypal Chargebacks - I'm not sure?)

 

If you want to sell something on ebay then the SAFEST possible method to receive money is, in my opinion, bank transfer. You can send it by any method and it is, I can assure you, contrary to any popular belief, extremely difficult to stop a bank transfer.

 

(Try it yourself - send a fiver to a mate and try and stop the transfer the next day! - Good Luck!)

 

Banks NORMALLY will not stop a transfer and reverse it unless a fraud has been perpetrated.

 

If you accept a cheque it can still bounce.

 

If you accept Paypal you will need to ensure you send the item by means that are trackable online (minimum Recorded Delivery) and if the "buyer" pays with a dodgy card you could STILL lose your money. Similarly if their address is not "confirmed" with paypal you could still lose your money if they decide to state they haven't received their item.

[electron99]

Just out of interest, how do you carry out a Bank transfer on a private account?

[CAGisforME]

Just out of interest, how do you carry out a Bank transfer on a private account?

 

This can be done using Online Banking, Telephone Banking (provided your private account has those facilities) or in the bank branch with the personal banker on the banks own computer system.

 

Hence there is always a paper trail.

 

Banks call Bank Transfer by different names (for instance on Barclays Online Banking it's under the suffix "pay a bill or someone")

 

 

[buzby]

Eiter fill in a Transfer Slip at the bank counter, or use PC Banking to enter the details.

[CAGisforME]

Just for clarity.

 

A transfer slip at the counter is fine.

 

Paying in cash/cheque to another person's account using a paying in slip, over the counter is NOT considered a transfer.

 

I have said this as for some time on the ebay forums there was discussion as to whether this was covered by ebay Protection. It isn't. However, online, branch and telephone transfers are all covered because they leave a trail.

 

[electron99]

Thanks for the replies.I am about to sell an item on e-bay, and will give it a try.Presumably it is safe to give a private buyer your account details.

[CAGisforME]

Yes, electron.

 

By giving them your sort code, account number and name you are giving LESS information out than on a cheque. (A cheque has your signature & potentially your card number on too!)

 

 

Have a look on this website, run by ebay sellers: bank transfer buyers

 

or check on the ebay forums. Just remember, Paypal is NOT safe, unless you are sending by online trackable means to a confirmed address and even then there is no protection against Credit card chargebacks unless you have full Seller Protection - and then it's not guaranteed.