Black Horse Ltd - Can they do this? URGENT HELP REQUIRED

[Ant84]

My dad bought a car around 3 years ago through Black Horse. As with any car finance agreement, I told him that he could send the car back to them after he has paid half of the balance. He then phoned Black Horse, they told him that he cannot do that as it is a personal loan agreement, not car finance. He accepted this and has this week advertised the car for sale, the buyer has done a HPI check on the vehicle and it has shown up as having outstanding finance, and now the buyer has understandably pulled out. Today, he has phoned Black Horse back and they told him that he cannot sell the car, as it still belongs to them.

 

The situation is quite confusing. I was under the impression that if it was a car finance agreement, then the car belongs to them until the balance is settled in full but you can send the car back to them and terminate the agreement once you have settled half the balance. On the other hand you have a personal loan agreement, where the goods you buy with the loan money never belong to the lender, and you are free to do as you wish with the goods but you still have to pay off the loan. Black Horse are obviously saying it is both, but surely it has to be one or the other, and my dad isn't legally bound to keep the car?

 

In their T&C on the contract, it says...

 

 

 

5 - VEHICLE PURCHASED WITH THE CASH LOAN

 

If you sell or otherwise dispose of the Goods at any time before the Total Amount Payable has been paid in full, we will require you to settle this Agreement within seven calendar days of the sale or disposal of the Goods. The settlement amount payable will be the unpaid balance of the Total Amount Payable (less any applicable rebate).

 

 

 

Surely they cannot do this? They are acting as though it is a personal loan, but with the rules of a car finance agreement.

 

Can someone please give me some advice on what I can do here? Quick responses would be greatly appreciated.

[barracad]

bump

[jimfishybob]

A HPI check will only show up finance if it is attatched to the car in question. If it is a personal loan then HPI will know nothing about it. Sometimes lenders will lend you money on the understanding that you are going to purchase a car with it and this can be used in their credit scoring decision as if you default they may be able to use the car or it's equity to settle your finance.

 

If the finance is showing on HPI I would suspect it is a car-loan, i.e. attatched to the car. Consequently you should be able to hand it back, (in reasonable condition), to the finance company, (known in the industry as halves and thirds). I'm also fairly sure that if you have paid over one half of the loan then the Black Horse may not repossess your car anyway. (Maybe someone wants to check out how far this goes back, maybe only until Jan 2005 when FSA rules came in).

 

My advice at the moment would be to contact them and ask them to explain in writing why exactly you can't hand the car back. If it's because it's a personal loan then ask them to remove the data from the, (sometimes inaccurate, anyway), HPI records.

 

It's worth understanding that finance companies don't advertise halves and thirds because they lose a fortune when you do it, it's usually hidden away in the T&C's somewhere and only then because it's a statutory requirement.

[alanfromderby]

This may also be a case where it is worth giving Trading Standards a ring.

 

Also you may have a claim under the Data Protection Act if they have wrongly notified it as being a car loan.

[JonCris]

This may also be a case where it is worth giving Trading Standards a ring.

 

Also you may have a claim under the Data Protection Act if they have wrongly notified it as being a car loan.

 

Also notify HPI that their record is disputed.

[JonCris]

This may also be a case where it is worth giving Trading Standards a ring.

 

Also you may have a claim under the Data Protection Act if they have wrongly notified it as being a car loan.

 

Also notify HPI that their record is disputed.

 

Also in the future try & avoid using a personal loan to purchase. Try & get a good rate from the selling garage & use their Hire Purchase finance facility. If a garge is using PL ro sell their cars its because they dont want any comeback & I should avoid them

 

Your protection should the car be a lemon is much greater. You can not only demand the dealer put it right or give you your money back but also the HP company under sec 75 Consumer Credit Act

[GSMGuy]

As an ex finance manager for a large dealership, I can tell you what is happening here..

 

Under a HP agreement, you are buying the car from the finance co, and it remains theirs until the final payment is made. However, you have a lot more protection under consumer law, in that if there is a fault with the vehicle, you can take action against the finance company. I had a Ford Galaxy about 18 months ago, that I bought on HP, when the auto gearbox went, and the dealer wasn't interested, I got in touch with the finance co (Black Horse)and pointed out their obligations, they paid for the repairs and a hire vehicle - over £3000!

 

Similarly with my current car, a Merc ML - there have been a couple of faults present since purchase that the garage has not been able to rectify - after 14 attempts! Needless to say, my solicitor has now written to the finance co, rejecting the vehicle and asking for a full refund of the deposit and payments to date (circa £7000)

 

Anyway, I digress...

 

Importantly, ifyou have a cash loan with Black Horse, it is secured on the vehicle, but it is NOT a HP agreement, they do this simply to get out of their obligations. It's perfectly legal, but if you don't understand the difference, you can be caught out - Needless to say when I changed cars, Black Horse were very eager to put me on a Cash Loan agreement rather than HP - So I simply borrowed an extra £500 taking me over their limit of £15000, and making sure it went onto a HP agreement, and therfore protected me, and not the finance co..

 

Hope this explains.

 

Mike

[Montague123]

Hi

 

I hope someone can give me some advice

 

I have HP with Black Horse for a Freelander

 

It says on the letter

 

Total amount to be paid on agreement £23k

Paid £9k

 

I have two questions

 

1. Can i hand the car back at some point - is it a third or half paid?

and secondly

 

Due to a marital breakdown the car was taken by two burghley bailiffs two months ago from the bottom of our drive.

 

2. Is this allowed

 

Any help would be great

 

Many thnks

[dw190]

1. Can i hand the car back at some point - is it a third or half paid?

and secondly

 

Due to a marital breakdown the car was taken by two burghley bailiffs two months ago from the bottom of our drive.

 

2. Is this allowed

 

If you have paid 1/3rd of the total cost, the goods cannot be repossessed against your wish without a Court Order.

 

If you have paid at least 1/2 of the total cost you can return the goods without further payment so long as you have taken reasonable care of the goods.

[craig_b]

I work as a Debt adviser and have dealt with several cases where Blackhorse have placed HPI notices against vehicles which have been purchased under Personal Loan agreements. the good news is that i have managed to have all removed by making a complaint to the Finance & Leasing Association. This is misuse of the HPI register. the vehicle is yours. You owe Blackhorse Money not the vehilce which was completely yours the second you executed the Consumer Credit Agreement. If you want me to do you the letter and give you the contact details of the Compliance officer at the FLA I will gladly do it for you. you can have this removed.

[GSMGuy]

I work as a Debt adviser and have dealt with several cases where Blackhorse have placed HPI notices against vehicles which have been purchased under Personal Loan agreements. the good news is that i have managed to have all removed by making a complaint to the Finance & Leasing Association. This is misuse of the HPI register. the vehicle is yours. You owe Blackhorse Money not the vehilce which was completely yours the second you executed the Consumer Credit Agreement. If you want me to do you the letter and give you the contact details of the Compliance officer at the FLA I will gladly do it for you. you can have this removed.

 

Now THAT is handy to know - sounds like Black Horse are trying to have their cake and eat it!

 

Mike

[jo5ephedward5]

this is what happened to me...(see link in my signature for my thread)

 

I called trading standards and they have told me that so long as black horse have this cluase in their loan it was my oversight for not reading it...now surly if its a personal loan they have no right to A reposses the car and B to add it to the HPI register as its not a HP agrement!

 

good luck with this...having spoken to one of their stubborn manager i'd say we're gonna need it.

 

Just found this on the FLA website: FLA :: Motor Finance :: Loan, Lease or Hire - a guide to buying a car

 

Personal Loan

A personal loan from a bank, building society or other loan provider (though occasionally available via dealerships) can offer many advantages. Interest rates are usually competitive, loans are often quick and easy to arrange and offer buyers the flexibility to shop around different dealerships for a deal that suits you. But be sure you know exactly what rate (APR) the lender is actually prepared to give you.

Loans can be secured – using your home or other asset as security for the loan – or unsecured. If the loan is not secured on the vehicle, the purchaser has the option to sell at leisure without having to repay the loan.

• Using a personal loan to buy a car restricts the option of financing other major outlays – like holidays or home improvements – by this means.
  
• Always give full consideration to the implications of borrowing against the security of your home.
  
• Always make sure you are not misled by the headline APR interest rate in the advertisement. Check the specific rate you are offered and re-visit other options before finalizing the deal.

now i am right in thinking this is not a secured loan on the car...they never told me this when i brought it and it just says personal loan on the forms i have...not secure pesonal loan...

[dw190]

now i am right in thinking this is not a secured loan on the car...they never told me this when i brought it and it just says personal loan on the forms i have...not secure pesonal loan...

 

If there is no mention of the car on the forms then they cannot hold it as security.

 

Ask them to provide you with documentary evidence to support their assertions that they have any charge against the car. Give them no more than fourteen days.

 

I think they are using that fact that they usually ask what the loan is to be used for which you would have replied "car".

[jo5ephedward5]

If there is no mention of the car on the forms then they cannot hold it as security.

 

Ask them to provide you with documentary evidence to support their assertions that they have any charge against the car. Give them no more than fourteen days.

 

I think they are using that fact that they usually ask what the loan is to be used for which you would have replied "car".

 

it was arranged through the dealership as all black horse finance is so you dont even get that privilge...i've written to black horse and given 14days and i will prepare a letter to the FLA as i know black horse will try and fob me off!

 

will keep you posted

[Ant84]

I work as a Debt adviser and have dealt with several cases where Blackhorse have placed HPI notices against vehicles which have been purchased under Personal Loan agreements. the good news is that i have managed to have all removed by making a complaint to the Finance & Leasing Association. This is misuse of the HPI register. the vehicle is yours. You owe Blackhorse Money not the vehilce which was completely yours the second you executed the Consumer Credit Agreement. If you want me to do you the letter and give you the contact details of the Compliance officer at the FLA I will gladly do it for you. you can have this removed.

 

Craig, that would be fantastic if possible.

 

Many thanks.

[jo5ephedward5]

indeed an idea of what to put in the letter would be excellent, there are a few people with this issue (myself included) and its knowing where to start!

[JonCris]

this is what happened to me...(see link in my signature for my thread)

 

I called trading standards and they have told me that so long as black horse have this cluase in their loan it was my oversight for not reading it...now surly if its a personal loan they have no right to A reposses the car and B to add it to the HPI register as its not a HP agrement!

 

good luck with this...having spoken to one of their stubborn manager i'd say we're gonna need it.

 

Just found this on the FLA website: FLA :: Motor Finance :: Loan, Lease or Hire - a guide to buying a car

 

Personal Loan

A personal loan from a bank, building society or other loan provider (though occasionally available via dealerships) can offer many advantages. Interest rates are usually competitive, loans are often quick and easy to arrange and offer buyers the flexibility to shop around different dealerships for a deal that suits you. But be sure you know exactly what rate (APR) the lender is actually prepared to give you.

Loans can be secured – using your home or other asset as security for the loan – or unsecured. If the loan is not secured on the vehicle, the purchaser has the option to sell at leisure without having to repay the loan.

• Using a personal loan to buy a car restricts the option of financing other major outlays – like holidays or home improvements – by this means.
  
• Always give full consideration to the implications of borrowing against the security of your home.
  
• Always make sure you are not misled by the headline APR interest rate in the advertisement. Check the specific rate you are offered and re-visit other options before finalizing the deal.

now i am right in thinking this is not a secured loan on the car...they never told me this when i brought it and it just says personal loan on the forms i have...not secure pesonal loan...

 

I really do despair of some Trading Standard Officers & their total lack of knowledge about consumer law. I help on another site & the amount of times I have seen comments from TS which are just plain wrong & misleading beggars belief.

 

Just because a company puts something in the TC's of a contract doesn't make it legal. If it's a personal loan then the goods you buy are yours period! & should not be registered at HPI

[jo5ephedward5]

Its not the first time i have had issues with trading standards - i think if you write to them they do things 'properly' but on the phone they are just normal people - after all it would be very difficult to find a large team that all specialise in all areas etc - i guess they need a switch board so they can put you through to someone who can help with your situation!

[JonCris]

Yes but in which case they shouldn't be giving advice about something they don't understand. Having said that the consumer laws (unlike many others) are relatively straight forward as they are designed in order that the lay person can understand them so why they aren't trained sufficiently before giving advice escapes me.

 

Many victims give up after speaking to them when in fact they have good cases to pursue.

 

Sorry to sound cynical but I think they prefer cases where there is a photo op or working for big business like the entertainments industry which is always bound to attract publicity

[marlow]

My loan was for a Yamaha R6, which I sold on one year later. They did ask me if I had the bike still but when I said no they didn't say much about it. It isn't "hire purchse" that everyone keeps for some unknown reason calling their black horse loans, they are simply that...loans. And if I did still have the bike I sure as damn it wouldn't leave it anywhere they could take it without consent. When I was on the phone the other day to the current DCA they have on the case, she asked my address which obviously I had to give her, then asked if I owned a vehicle. Why on earth she asked this I don't know, because they wouldn't be able to indentify which vehicle I drive. In any case, I replied "what's it got to do with you?", too which she didn't take very kindly. :D

[jo5ephedward5]

Black Horse primarily deal with Hire Purchase - when they do sell using loans they put the car/bike etc on the HPI register to stop you selling it - this is what people are trying to remove i think...after all they may be in the wrong to sell with a loan and stick it on the HPI list, but its bound to be an offence to sell a car on the HPI register.

[JonCris]

Black Horse primarily deal with Hire Purchase - when they do sell using loans they put the car/bike etc on the HPI register to stop you selling it - this is what people are trying to remove i think...after all they may be in the wrong to sell with a loan and stick it on the HPI list, but its bound to be an offence to sell a car on the HPI register.

 

It is NOT an offence to sell a car which is on the HPI register. Its an offence to sell something you don't own. The whole point is that if your car/bike has been purchased through a personal loan & not hire purchase then it should NOT be registered with HPI as you own it outright at the outset

 

Lloyds registering vehicles purchased via their personal loans scheme is an abuse of the system as 1st they are trying to avoid their obligations under the Consumer Credit Act which does not protect those using personel loans as well as it does those buying on Hire Purchase whilst claiming the same protection that would be afforded to them if the car was on HP

 

Anyone purchasing on dealer supplied HP has much more protection than anyone using a PL as should the vehicle "be not fit for it's purpose" under the act the loan company has as equal a liabilty as the supplyer. In the case of a PL no such liability in law exists. You could purchase a lemon return it to the dealer but still have to pay Black Horse in full. In other words as has already been stated Black Horse are trying to have their cake & eat it & the simple truth is they can't.

 

Should their agreement be challenged I'm almost certain the OFT & the courts would define their agreements as being a sham & only recognisable as straight forward personal loans.

I also suspect that Black Horse may have shot themselves in the foot as should any such agreement be challenged because of their actions the courts might consider there not only to be an "unfair relationship" under the 2006 CCA but that their agreements are technicaly wrong & therefore unenforcable...Remember the consumer laws are interpreted very strictly. Even failing to put the interest in the correct place on the agreement or adding interest to PPI premuims has recently caused the courts to declare such agreements as unenforcable............Just a thought

[JonCris]

Black Horse primarily deal with Hire Purchase - when they do sell using loans they put the car/bike etc on the HPI register to stop you selling it - this is what people are trying to remove i think...after all they may be in the wrong to sell with a loan and stick it on the HPI list, but its bound to be an offence to sell a car on the HPI register.

 

It is NOT an offence to sell a car which is on the HPI register. Its an offence to sell something you don't own. The whole point is that if your car/bike has been purchased through a personal loan & not hire purchase then it should NOT be registered with HPI as you own it outright at the outset

 

Lloyds registering vehicles purchased via their personal loans scheme is an abuse of the system as 1st they are trying to avoid their obligations under the Consumer Credit Act which does not protect those using personel loans as well as it does those buying on Hire Purchase whilst they are claiming the same protection that would be afforded to them if the car was on HP

 

Anyone purchasing using dealer supplied HP has much more protection than anyone using a PL as should the vehicle "be not fit for it's purpose" under the act the loan company has as equal a liabilty as the supplier. In the case of a PL being used no such liability in law exists. You could purchase a lemon return it to the dealer but still have to pay Black Horse in full. In other words as has already been stated Black Horse are trying to have their cake & eat it & the simple truth is they can't.

 

Should their agreement be challenged I'm almost certain the OFT & the courts would define their agreements as being a sham & only recognisable as straight forward personal loans.

I also suspect that Black Horse may have shot themselves in the foot as should any such agreement be challenged because of their actions the courts might consider there not only to be an "unfair relationship" under the 2006 CCA but that their agreements are technicaly wrong & therefore unenforcable...Remember the consumer laws are interpreted very strictly by the courts. Even failing to put the interest in the correct place on the agreement or adding interest to PPI premuims has recently caused the courts to declare such agreements as unenforcable............Just a thought

[nathal]

Sorry for butting in!

I had acar on finance with Fiat auto financial services. £21k for car.

Circumstances changed after 18 months of a 60 month term.

After non payment the car was repossessed. I had payed approx £5,000

Got a call the other day. A fellow bought the car for £7k.

Does this make it HALF?

[jo5ephedward5]

It is NOT an offence to sell a car which is on the HPI register. Its an offence to sell something you don't own. The whole point is that if your car/bike has been purchased through a personal loan & not hire purchase then it should NOT be registered with HPI as you own it outright at the outset

 

Lloyds registering vehicles purchased via their personal loans scheme is an abuse of the system as 1st they are trying to avoid their obligations under the Consumer Credit Act which does not protect those using personel loans as well as it does those buying on Hire Purchase whilst they are claiming the same protection that would be afforded to them if the car was on HP

 

Anyone purchasing using dealer supplied HP has much more protection than anyone using a PL as should the vehicle "be not fit for it's purpose" under the act the loan company has as equal a liabilty as the supplier. In the case of a PL being used no such liability in law exists. You could purchase a lemon return it to the dealer but still have to pay Black Horse in full. In other words as has already been stated Black Horse are trying to have their cake & eat it & the simple truth is they can't.

 

Should their agreement be challenged I'm almost certain the OFT & the courts would define their agreements as being a sham & only recognisable as straight forward personal loans.

I also suspect that Black Horse may have shot themselves in the foot as should any such agreement be challenged because of their actions the courts might consider there not only to be an "unfair relationship" under the 2006 CCA but that their agreements are technicaly wrong & therefore unenforcable...Remember the consumer laws are interpreted very strictly by the courts. Even failing to put the interest in the correct place on the agreement or adding interest to PPI premuims has recently caused the courts to declare such agreements as unenforcable............Just a thought

 

Question i have then is how is best to deal with this situation? - (i'm not hi-jacking i think this is relevant to the poster...and i have my own thread - see link in signature)

 

I have many issues with Black Horse from Miss sold PPI that i didnt know i had and didnt sign for!, a warrenty i didnt ask for and the fact that they signed me up for a 9K loan on a 4K car by adding all the interest to it the day i signed for (is this allowed - they dont charge it daily it goes down each month but half way throught the agrement u owe more than the car was worth brand new as paying for the interest first!)

 

these are just some of my problems!

 

I want to get someone to look through all my paperwork and advise me but its knowing who...also i only have what the dealership gave me which includes many forms that i dont think go to black horse that have different information on - is it worth sending Data to Black Horse to see if there are any differences in our paperwork?