Angry Cat V Morgan Stanley **WON AT LONG BL**DY LAST!!!**

[angry cat]

Hi Guys-

I want to send the [Library] preliminary letter to morgan stanley, this is with regard to their Gold credit card Penalty Fines that have been levied on my morgan stanley account, amounting to approx £280 plus interest, some of the fines go back 4/5 years

Of course, I would be most grateful if anyone has already written to them about Unlawful Penalties - who they wrote to and what was the response? if any reply received back.

Thanks

angry cat

[angry cat]

Hi Guys,

I have sent the Library preliminary letter to Morgan Stanley yesterday requesting a refund for £280 plus interest. The penalties are in relation to a Morgan Stanley Gold credit card. I became unwell in 2002 and even though I had purchased their Payment Protection Insurance, which was supposed to cover my monthly repayments, I was constantly fined with Late charges and overlimit charges, because Morgan Stanley's chosen insurer was often late in making the required payment. There was absolutely no coordination between the bank and insurer, so the required montly payment dates were nearly always late - result 'FINES'

 

This morning I have received a Notice of Default dated 10 April 2006, this notice has crossed in the post with my preliminary letter to Morgan Stanley -Because I am now in arrears by £220 the bank has sent me a notice of Default and that if I do not pay the £220 within 14 days the Default will be enforced.

 

However, Morgan Stanley owe me more that the arrears!

 

Help & advice please....

 

Of course, if and when I receive a reply to my preliminary Library letter, I will post the reply

angry cat

[angry cat]

Can anyone help me with some Legal Advice regarding "Notice of Default" ???

 

I have sent a Library preliminary letter to Morgan Stanley Bank on 12 April 2006 requesting £280 plus interest on unlawful penalty fines (obviously giving them 14 days to respond) but

my letter has crossed in the post with Morgan Stanley's "Notice of Default" dated 10 April 2006 which requires payment of £220 not later than 14 days from the date of the "Notice" - 24 April 2006. However, the notice states that if the £220 is paid by 24 April 2006 no further enforcement action will be taken in respect of the breach.

The "Notice" continues "IF YOU DO NOT TAKE THE ACTION REQUIRED BY THIS NOTICE 'BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN' THEN THE FURTHER ACTION SET OUT BELOW MAY BE TAKEN AGAINST YOU

 

ACTION INTENDED TO BE TAKEN It is our intention to terminate the agreement, demand payment of the entire balance and report the account as in default to the appropriate credit reference agencies. THIS REPORT WILL BE MADE NOT BEFORE 28 DAYS OF THE DATE OF THIS NOTICE (10 April 2006)

 

Because I have sent the Library preliminary letter requesting a refund of Penalty charges amounting to £280 + interest, this does not make sense. How can Morgan Stanley default me for £220, when they owe me £280 + interest

 

Please advise me on my next move, should I write stating that I have a counter claim? Do I apply to the court for more time with regard to the default, prior to my action if they will not refund the charges?-

Any advice would be gratefully received

 

Thanks

angry cat

[Don Quioxte]

Hi Angry Cat..

 

Legally Morgan and Stanley have every right to initiate default proceedings against you if you are in breach of your terms ad conditions (i.e owe them £220). The letter they have sent you is simply to put a rocket up you, and scare you into paying the £220 and bringing your account back into order... They are giving you until 24th to do so. Now under normal circumstances you would be inclined to pay the £220 to avoid a default notice being issued after 28 days.

 

As you have pointed out you are claiming a refund of charges. You must not be lulled into the opinion that Morgan Stanley have no right to proceed in the manner that they are, just because you know they owe you £280 and are willing to pursue the matter in small claims - they can still continue with the default.

 

HOWEVER, it is likely that Morgan Stanley would take into consideration the fact that you are pursuing a claim concurrently, and thus likely freeze any action until your complaint against them has been settled or concluded.

 

I suggest that you communicate with Morgan Stanley with regards the letter you have received. Point out that you are pursuing a complaint that may lead to legal action to recover an amount greater than the sum for which they are threatening to default you over. Explain that you have no intention of crediting the account with any funds pending satisfactory resolutuion of your complaint. Request that under these circumstances you request that Morgan Stanley freeze any action against you. Advise them that you are making a record of this request, so that should they continue with their actions against you and you incur a default, or any additional costs in the interim you will petition the County Court for those costs and reversal of any Default registered.

 

A default notice is not served through a court, you can only negotiate with the lender to avoid the registering of the default.. the debt will then be passed to a collection agency who will assume responsibility for recovering the debt from you (plus their costs).. the court only gets involved if the only way to recover the debt is to apply for a County Court Judgement or attatchment of earnings order.

 

Morgan Stanley will I expect suspend the default notice until your complaint has been resolved.. but communicate with them!!

[Robertxc]

Hello angry cat,

 

In practical terms, the situation you're in is actually quite straight forward. Morgan Stanley state that they abide by The Banking Code (that shiney booklet the give you when you open an account). The Code sets out how they promise to treat you. Section 13.6 of the code stated explicitly that they will only say bad things about you to the credit reference ageny "if the amount owed is not in dispute". Clearly, because you are going after them for £280, on an outstanding balance of £220, the amount owed is definitley 'in dispute'. I recommend looking up "The Banking Code" on the web and confirming this for yourself.

 

Now, it's important to make the distinction between the bank issuing you with a Default notice, and them sending it to Equifax. Whereas you couldn't care less about the first,the second will obliterate your credit rating. It's important that you bring this to their attention imediately (i.e. before they send you a Default notice). They are entitled to send you a Default notice, they just shouldn't pass it on to the credit reference agency. When the time comes for them to settle the matter, you need to insist that they remove anything prejudicial which they may have passed on to third parties (Default notices to credit reference agencies being top of the list). It is critical that you insist that they REMOVE it altogether, and not just mark it as SETTLED.

 

It is an unfortunate fact that British banks use their unchallenged computerised access to everyone's credit file as leverage in the event that they end up in a dispute. I've been in disputes with four or five banks, and I personally find it quite shameful and dishonest the way in which they ignore inconvenient rules when it suits them. You will find that the people who will be trying to extract £220 from you will almost certainly know nothing of their company's commitments under The Banking Code, so don't be surprised if they just ignore The Banking Code altogether. You'll need to force them to rectify things yourself by refusing to drop your court action until they do it.

 

I've actually had this very matter addressed by a Sheriff very recently, and I can assure you he had scant sympathy for the bank.

[angry cat]

Hi ed Cervantes & robertxc !

 

Thanks Guys for responding to my query so promptly ...!

 

I have just posted two letter to Morgan Stanley. One has gone to the issuer of the default notice Morgan Stanley Customer Assistance Dept., the other to their complaints - Customer care department-

 

***I HOPE THAT I HAVE GOT THIS RIGHT*** ???

 

Dear Sir or Madam.

I am in receipt of a letter dated 10 April 2006 and enclosed "Notice of Default" from Morgan Stanley, Customer Assistance Department.

 

The letter dated 10 April 2006 factually crossed in the post with my letter to Mr John MacLean, Manager, Customer Assistance Departrment at Morgan Stanley dated 12 April 2006 and I enclose a copy of my letter for your information (PRELIMINARY LIBRARY LETTER)

 

You will see from my letter to Mr John MacLean, that I am concurrently pursuing a complaint that may lead to legal action to recover an amount grater than the sum for which Morgan Stanley is threatening to default me over.

 

I have no intention of crediting the account with any funds pending satisfactory resolution of my claim/complaint. Under these circumstances 'I REQUEST' that Morgan Stanley freeze any action against me. I formally advise you, that I am making a record of this request, so that should Morgan Stanley continue with their actions against me and I incur a 'Default' or any additional costs in the interim I will petition the County Court for those costs and reversal of any Default registered.

 

Please refer to the BBA BANKING CODE Section 13.6 of which Morgan Stanley is committed to adhere to-

 

We may give information to Credit Reference Agencies about personal debts you owe us if:

. You have fallen behind with your payments

. THE AMOUNT OWED IS NOT IN DISPUTE

.You have not made proposals we are satisfied with for repaying your debt,

following our formal demand.

 

It is hoped that Morgan Stanley will suspend the Default Notice until my complaint has been resolved as it is very clear that the amount owed is 'In Dispute'. I demand that any adverse data or Deault that Morgan Stanley place on my credit refernce agency file, be removed, otherwise I will be forced to make a formal complaint to the Information Commissioner.

 

I would be most grateful if you could treat this matter with some urgency, as I have already given you a deadline of 14 days, to respond to my letter date 12 April 2006.

 

Yours

 

Please let me know if this is Okay ?

 

Thanks

angry cat

[Robertxc]

Hello angry cat,

 

Your letter is ok. I'm not sure if they send notice of the Default to the CRAs at the same time as they send it to you - probably not. It might be worth in a few weeks getting a copy of your credit file from the three main CRAs to check. The main thing is that you've put them on notice.

 

There is, however, something you need to watch out for. They may simply refund your money, less the overdraft, and then do nothing. If they've already posted the Default, then you have a bit of a problem. This would leave you in the position where no money is due by or to anyone, but you still have to try to force them to fix your credit file - something you might not be able to do in Small Claims.

 

My recommendation to you, if you have the confidence, is to work to extremely tight deadlines, with the goal of getting your claim into court asap, INCLUDING in your claim a request for an order instructing that anything prejudicial which they may have passed on to third parties is retracted. Once you're in the court system the option of simply sending you a cheque for £60 is no longer open to them. If they want to walk away from it they have to settle the matter in its entirety on your terms. It is likely that sending notice of the Default to the CRAs happens automatically by computer, therefore I think it's important that you try to set things up so that they have to remove it after the fact, rather than before. I don't honestly think that the people who deal with debt collection (and therefore Defaults), have any idea about how to manually control what gets sent to the CRAs and what doesn't. It's only when you're dealing with the legal people, who will be many rungs further up the ladder that there will be the capability to intervene in such things. I think your main advantage is that you will be suing them for an amount which is so small that it is incencievable that they will defend it. Therefore once you get in to court you just have to sit tight and wait for them to offer settlement.

 

I hope all this makes sense, and if you'd like some more in depth advice, please feel free to ask. You can PM me if you like, but bear in mind that this forum works best when things are shared.

[angry cat]

Hi Robertxc and thanks for your reply-

 

My thread has become confused !

because I initially posted an advice that I had sent the Library preliminary letter to Morgan Stanley 12/04/2006. I posted this under - Other Institutions - "Preliminary letter sent to Morgan Stanley".

 

However, the following day I received the "Notice of intended Default" from Morgan Stanley and needed legal advice on how to deal with this...Therefore, I thought it best to post my question under "General" "Legal advice required on Notice of Default"

subsequently both you and ed cervantes kindly responded to my plea for assistance.

 

Basically all my problems with Morgan Stanley are due to my becoming unwell and having to claim on their Payment Protection Insurance, which was a con!

My claim was agreed and my account received the monthly payments of 3% of the oustanding balance that was approx £10,000. My illness proved to be long term, Morgan Stanley continued to charge the monthly PPI premiums and of course added interest. Bear in my that 3% of the outstanding balance that was paid monthly to cover my credit card payments, with interest added being added on the montly PPI premiums which I continued to pay all through my claim plus...

because of the lack of continuity between the bank and the insurer the monthly insurance payments to my account were nearly always late, resulting in Late fines and over limit fines. Therefore, even though as the bank and insurer state "because the outstanding balance at the date when you became unwell has been paid - approx £10,000 you claim has come to an end" I am left with a debt of the monthly PPI premiums, interest added, late fees and over limit fees which amount to just under £5000 and I could not claim again on the insurance, even though I am still unwell, because I had not returned to work (Unfair Terms & Conditions)

 

I have continued to pay Morgan Stanley the monthly mimimum payments, because I do not think it fair that my Credit Reference Agency file should be marred just because of my illness, but made a decision to ask for the £250 + interest back in respect of the Penalties that I have been unfairly charged.

Please note that my debt is made up of montly payment protection insurance premiums paid post original insurance claim, plus accrued interest and Fines!

 

In short, I sent the Library preleiminary letter 12/04/2006 and then received the intended "Notice of Default" dated 10/04/2006 which requires payment by the 24/04/2006 but my letter requires payment of the penalty charges by 26/04/2006, or an answer!?

 

I do not believe that Morgan Stannley can default me until 8 May 2006 as they have given me a 28 day notice on 10 April 2006 (required before they can register default with the CRA)

 

I am waiting for their response to the preliminary letter sent 12/04/2006, which takes me to the 26/04/2006 and it would appear that I have to send the 'Before Action Letter' in which I have to give them an additional 14 days, which will then take me to 10 May 2006...

by which time Morgan Stanley will have defaulted me:(

this is quite a conundrem!!!

Perhaps, I am a Dunce..but this is how it appears to me-

hopefully someone will put me on the right road

 

Thanks

angry cat

[Robertxc]

Hello angry cat.

 

Can you please clarify a point in your post? You say you are left with a debt of around £5k made up of monthly PPI premiums, interest added, late fees and over limit fees. Are you saying that the late fees and over limit fees only make up £280 of this?

[Nightmare4banks]

Hi all!

 

Sorry to read about your problem,angry cat.

 

I have similar problem(s) with a few of my card companies,but hey this is why we are in this group in the first place!

 

Now,to clarify the "THE NOTICE OF DEFAULT" issue:

 

1.All this means is that you are in breach of the contract with your bank/credit card company i.e. over the limit,missing payment(s) etc.

 

2.This DOES NOT mean that the bank has registered a default against your name with the credit reference agencies.All it means,angry cat is that you are in breach of the agreement due to bla bla bla etc and in order to get out of your breach you pay £x by so and so day of so and month.

 

3.Should you not pay by that final day,it still does not mean that you will be defaulted - after the final day has lapsed the bank can default you if you have not "put right" your breach.You cannot say the bank has not warned you in advance.

 

4.Also,if the bank defaults you should have a fixed sum owed rather than an amount with interest being charged more on a day by day basis.

 

5.All banks have to issue the statutory notice in accordance to Section 87(1) of The Consumer Credit Act.

 

In my view you,after receiving your statements etc you should

persue Morgan & Stanley for:

 

a.the unlawful charges etc. as you are doing under one claim.

 

b.Morgan & Stanley for The PPI under a seperate claim - within this claim insist on having any negative info.on your credit file removed.You will need to get copies of your credit file from Experian & Equifax if you have not already done so.

This will help you determine what you need to be amended/removed by the bank - if the information that has been provided by the bank is incorrect and/or misleading.

 

 

I hope you find this information useful.

 

If anyone has any questions,please feel free to ask or PM me.

 

Keep us posted.

 

All the best!

[angry cat]

Hi Robertxc !

 

Yes, I am left with a debt of £5.530.91

this amount is made up of PPI monthly premiums (these were charged after my original PPI claim in 2002) interest added plus the late and over limit fees of approx £280.

I did get some of the late fees refunded because I complained the the FOS during my insurance claim because Morgan Stanley marked one of my statements as a Delinquent payer and the FOS did agree that I could not be considered a "Delinquent" payer at the time, due to the fact that the insurer was in control of the remit and not I

However, there is still £250 plus interest owed to me in the form of penalties and over limit fees.

 

As to the remaining debt, I am considering going to the Citizens Advice Bureau to obtain their view, but I do not want to confuse the issue here by rambling on about possible Unfair Contract Terms or Unfair Terms in the PPI Limititation and Exclusion clauses - if I do I think that I will have to start a new thread.

 

I am trying to fight off the posibility of a default being registered against me!

Morgan Stanley owe me £250 plus interest-

Why should I pay them the required £220 just to stop them filing a default, when they owe me money?

 

Obviously, I do not have any legal experience, but common sense tells me that this is just not right

 

Thanks

angry cat

[angry cat]

Hi Nightmare4 banks-

Thanks for your message-

 

Yes I know that Morgan Stanley have not yet registered the Default and that the Default Notice is a threat. However, they have given me the required 28 day notice of their intention to place the Default on my CRA file. The Notice was dated the 10 April 2006, therefore I presume that the default will be placed on my file 8 May 2006.

 

I have all my statements and I have already sent the (Library) preliminary letter 12 April 2006, giving them 14 days to refund the fines and I have also sent their customer care department a letter "You will see from my letter to Mr. John MacLean (Morgan Stanley) that I am pursuing a complaint that may lead to legal action to recover an amount greater than the sum for which Morgan Stanley is threatening to default me over" I have no intention of crediting the account with any funds, pending satisfactory resolution of my claim/complaint Under these circumstances 'I REQUEST' that Morgan Stanley freeze any action agaimst me"

 

I suppose I have to wait the 14 days for their response - 26 April 2006, but what to do then because time will be running out for me...

 

I will apply for a copy of my CRA file again ! to determine what has been registered.

 

Note, I have been driven mad with banks as I constantly have to obtain my CRA file @ £2 a time, these banks are so bad, especially when your only crime/ Reason for debt is illness

There is some comfort in knowing that I am not alone!

[dave]

14 days is not long.

 

It may be best to pay it (if you can) and then claim it back, plus interest and costs (should it go that far) afterwards.

 

Alternatively - you could inform them that the amount is in dispute and that any default will be seen as defamatory and you will take 'appropriate' action.

[angry cat]

Hi Dave and...

Thanks for your reply!

 

Yes, I know that 14 days is not long to wait-

it's just annoying that their Notice of Default threat, crossed in the post with my 'Preliminary Letter' and of course this makes my deadline difficult-

The Notice of Default threat was dated 10 April 2006, therefore Morgan Stanley have to give me 28 days before they can register the default with the CRA's. So, that will take me to 8 May 2006! Maybe, I can pay them and then claim the required £280 and then claim the money back? but...

I am begining to feel like I am really being treated unfairly by Morgan Stanely, because the majority of their fines were levied when my PPI (insurance) was in place due to my becoming unwell and thus had to claim on their PPI, which lacked continuity between the Broker/Agent Morgan Stanley and their chosen insurer - Norwich Union. Payments were late from the insurer, which resulted in Late and over limit fees!

 

A very similar story to my MBNA saga...

Perhaps I record/register a Dispute?

 

It's incredible isn't it? because I had a faultless Credit Record prior to becoming unwell and I have really struggled to keep up my payments, just to protect my CRA file, (plus they jacked up the interst rate - "International Default") not because I want to borrow any money! I just feel that it is my basic Right, to keep my CRA record clean, when my only crime was/is illness - I'm not a deliquent or runaway spender! I purchased the PPI when I signed up for the card, actually I ticked a box! However, I was promised 'Peace of Mind'...!

They failed to point out, that in the case of a long time illness, one will end up with a massive debt. Morgan Stanley have a similar PPI racket going, they only pay 3% of ones outstanding balance monthly and they continue to charge monthly PPI premiums with accruing interest on top- Therefore the PPI makes lots of money, the only Protection is for the bank -

 

What a Laugh-

Have you looked at the CAB 'super Compalint about The Payment Protection Racket'

it makes a good read.

 

Anyway, it will be intersting to hear what Morgan Stanley's response will be to my (Library) preliminary letter...?

 

Thanks for your input Dave

angry cat

[Loula]

Hi Angry Cat,

 

Sorry no one has replied to you before now.

 

Is this sorted now? Whom did you write to?

 

LOULA

[angry cat]

Hi Loula-

 

Thanks for your reply-

 

I wasn't sure who to write to at Morgan Stanley?

However, I sent the Library preliminary letter to-

Mr John MacLean, Manager, Customer Assistance Department on 15 April 2006.

I also sent a copy of the letter to the Morgan Stanley Customer Care Department.

 

To date I have not received a reply, maybe it will come today?

 

Thanks

angry cat

[Loula]

Thanks AC

 

When you get a reply and name, please can you post it here so we can advise anyone else wishing to contact Morgan Stanley.

 

Personally I just wrote on 10 April to their registered office/head office with no name and have still to hear.

 

LOULA

[angry cat]

Hi Loula-

 

I will post the Morgan Stanley response as soon as it is received, that is if they reply!?

 

Because you sent your letter off to MS on the 10 April, which is 5 days before I sent mine on 15 April 2006. I would be most grateful if you could advise me, that is, if you receive a reply. It would be interesting to compare letters and if they are anything like MBNA also a USA bank, I think that we can all expect a stock response?

 

Tare Care of Yourself!

angry cat

[Loula]

Of course Angry Cat!

 

On Monday I will be sending the Letter Before Action, that might provaoke a reaction, although I doubt it! Perhaps Ignorance is bliss after all!

 

LOULA

[angry cat]

Hello Loula-

 

Well, lets hope something turns up!

 

Loula, I have just read a very disturbing email on the BAG site,

please take a look because this poor man needs help!!!

 

Its under Other Institutions-

Help needed - Chatham Finance -please take a look...maybe you can help?

 

Sorry I don't mean to mess up the thread and I will keep you updated on

this post/threas on-

Morgan Stanley Bank

[Loula]

OK will do.

 

DOn;t worry about the thread, it is a small tangent not like some major diversions which occur.

 

LOULA

[angry cat]

Hi Loula

 

This morning 22 April 2006 I received a response from Morgan Stanley's Customer Care Manager - Aileen Johnson.

 

I factually addressed my Library preliminary letter 15/4/06 to Morgan Stanley's Mr. John MacLean but I also sent a "Complaint" letter 15/4/06 to the MS Customer Care Department, which was about a threatened Default. However, I enclosed a copy of my Library preliminary letter for the MS Customer Care Departments information!

 

Therefore at this stage I am unable to state as to whether the MS response will be an answer to my preliminary letter? or my complaint about the threatened default? but for your information the MS letter dated 21 April 2006 is as follows:-

 

"Dear ...........

 

Thank you for your recent commumication highlighting concerns you have with Morgan Stanley.

 

I am currently investigating the matter you raised and anticipate being in a position to provide a full response within 10 working days

 

Yours sincerely

 

Aileen Johnson

Customer Care Manager"

 

A copy of the Morgan Standley Complaint Procedure was enclosed within the above letter, which mentions The Financial Ombudsman Service....!

 

Morgan Stanley have until the 30 April 2006 to accept unconditionally my request in principle letting me know a date by which I will receive payment. If they do not reply or resppond positively, I will issue the Before Action Letter on 1st May 2006.

 

It would appear that these banks are not taking any notice of the preliminary letter, they are certainly not reading it correctly, nor treating it with any urgency! Grrrrrrr

 

However Loula, at least they have made contact with me, but of course they are required to answer letters of complaint within 5 working days, or at least confirm receipt of the letter.

 

Have you received the same response?

Has anyone heard from Morgan Stanley?

 

Kind thoughts

 

angry cat

[Loula]

Hi Angry Cat!

 

Thanks for the update. We still haven't heard anything.

 

Tomorrow I will sending the Letter Before Action - recorded delivery of course.

 

Will let you know if we hear anything.

 

LOULA

[Loula]

Hi!

 

Read my latest post

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=33573#post33573

 

makes no sense in the light of your letter!

 

LOULA

[angry cat]

Hi Loula-

 

Sorry I have only just seen your post !

 

Thanks for the link and I read the MS letter-

I am surprised at MS as I was expecting them to follow the same tact as MBNA obviously because they are both American banks.

 

As soon as I receive the MS reply I will let you know

 

Kind thoughts

 

angry cat