The Bloodster vs Nat West

[thebloodster]

I've been doing a claim for my ex for sometime now and she is looking for charges of £2150.48. I've never done a claim for myself but I now have 6 different claims for different people going at once (butthats a different story)

 

This is my first one and here's where I'm up to.

 

We have had the statements through, totted up the charges and sent the two letters from MSE asking for her money back (inc a list of the charges). After a standard "we will look into it response" I started court proceedings through MCOL. After paying the £120 fee out of my dosh (which I will get back if we win) the papers were deemed as served on 17th March.

 

They later acknowledged this and on the 12th Apr they filed a defence. In the defence from cobbetts they had the Request for info part and the CPR Request. On the same day she received a letter from Nat West basically saying out of Goodwill we are offering £2150.48 etc etc. But since we won't get the 8% interest (about £500) and my court fees back we decided to refuse the offer!! Now here comes the new interesting bit.

 

As I was online yesterday I was sorting out the letter for CPR request and list of charges which I have decided to send on Tuesday two days before Cobbets deadline.

 

However today she received two new letters. One was from the Nat West which was an exact duplicate of the previous offer letter but they are now offering a reduced sum of £1967.48, which obviously we are not accepting.

 

She also received another letter today from Northampton Court which is a "Notice of Transfer of Proceedings" This letter states that a defence has been filed and the claim has been transferred to the court covering the area where the claimant lives. However this is where it gets weird. Their is a line saying please read attached documents carefully and then the section saying return the allocation questionnaire to Manchester County Court has been crossed off. Another point on this letter is that where it say claimant lives it the claimant part is hand written and the typed defendant part is crossed out!!

 

Also attached is Order from Northampton County Court that without hearing it is ordered that "The filing of an allocation questionnaire be dispensed with in this case unless the District Judge at the court of transfer orders otherwise"

 

So what do I do now. Should I still send the CPR Request letter to the court and Cobbetts and have people heard of this before? Is it a good or bad sign?

 

Thanks

[martin2006]

All that seems to be happening here is the courts are trying to speed up the process by bypassing the AQ stage and issuing court dates instead as the courts are fully aware that the banks legal loons are delaying to the max. Dont worry you will probably get a court date soon and then a nice fat cheque for the lot incl 8% and fees.

[fendyweather]

Its fine whichever way you want to look at it. Dont do anything that the Cobbets ask for. Only do what the courts ask for.... End of........ I have exactly the same. The AQ has been dispensed with, its a new thing, only started happening since beginning of April. You just need to send letter with draft order for directions to the court its been changed to i.e your local court............. here you need to read this. This is what I responded with:

 

 

Totally new - as of yesterday 1st April- peeps are getting this from the court:

 

We have received the Notice of Transfer of Proceedings and with this is another sheet of paper saying that

 

1. The filing of an allocation qustionnaire be dispensed with in this case unless the District Judge at the court of transfer orders otherwise.

 

We can assume that the courts are so innundated with cases (and allocation questionaires) that they have decided to take this step.

It would appear that it means the judge MAY OR MAY NOT require an AQ to be filed. It suggests to me that the judges are fed up with the banks using the system to stall when they are perfectly aware that at the end of this great stall - the banks settle and the court system is being played to the bank's advantage. I think we will see the local judge doing one of two things - either requesting an AQ which I'm sure you will be made aware of by post OR: and think this is more likely- the judge will set a court date much earlier.

 

OK, don't panic at that info - this is, in my view, good news - as it will shorten the whole process. Let's see where this goes - it's too new to call. Most of you are aware - we are just people like you - watching and seeing what happens but the best guess is it means the banks will be forced into action much faster.

 

My one suggestion, so far is to send DG a letter - this lets them know that you know what's going on and it is you making an attempt to get them to move it along and will be seen by a judge in a very favourable light.

 

Here is a letter you could send when you receive that notice from the court:

 

(ADDRESS THIS LETTER TO THE SOLICITORS DEALING WITH YOUR BANK/INSTITUTIONS LEGAL CLAIMS - THIS IS HSBC INFO)

DG Solicitors

12 Calthorpe Road

Edgbaston

Birmingham

B15 1QZ

 

Re: XXXXX - v - HSBC

account no,

claim no and filing date(mcol).

 

It has come to my attention that as of xx/xx/07, ( date of the letter from the court) that an Allocation Questionaire may not be required in this case.

 

I am mindful of the vast number of claims with which you are currently dealing. In order to more speedily resolve this matter, I am willing to accept the sum of £xxxx. (rounded down to nearest pound-keep this as your full amount including charges, interest and court filing fee). I do not agree to waive my rights in respect of any other actions, nor do I agree to a clause of confidentiality.

 

I hope to hear from you very soon so that a reasonable conclusion to this claim might be achieved. I am sure that the courts would approve of our settling this matter in a timely manner and without their further intervention.

 

For your records, I enclose another copy of my schedule of charges. I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

 

There will inevitably be a lot of discussion about this (the new approach by the court) and I think it would be a good idea to keep the discussion in one place and also have a place to refer to when people don't get the response at the end of 28 days that we have so confidently predicted.

 

It may come to pass that local judges will ask for the allocation questionaire and if they require one - it will undoubtedly be sent from the local court to the parties involved ( and the traditional 14 days or so to a filing deadline ). So until you hear otherwise, if the message received is that the AQ may be dispensed with in this case - take it that it has been until you hear otherwise.

 

Let the party begin.................... .

 

 

TO OTHER FORUM USERS: WELCOME, THIS IS HERE SOLELY BECAUSE I HELP WITH THIS FORUM - I DON'T SEE WHY ANY OF IT WOULDN'T APPLY TO ANY OTHER BANK/INSTITUTION - FEEL FREE TO ADD TO OUR THREAD AND USE ANY INFO -

 

And here is one of the moderator's take on this:

Is your court dispensing with the Allocation Questionnaire?

Bookworm

 

Another thing: I wrote this thread: When you have filed your AQ................ for peeps when they had filed their AQ's.

If you haven't yet had to do an AQ - some of the info is still very pertinent to what to do next. Take a look and see how you can vary it and use the info to help you in dealing with the court and DG. Obviously not all of it is relevant - but some of it is and may help.

 

 

HERE'S ANOTHER BIG ADDITION TO THIS THREAD AS OF FRIDAY 6 APRIL

 

It has been suggested by Bookworm in this thread:

Is your court dispensing with the Allocation Questionnaire?

that if you find yourself in this position - you send the Draft Direction to the court you've now been transferred to - the same as if you were filing an AQ using the new strategy:

New strategy for Allocation Questionaires

So, this would mean a cover note like this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Your address]

The Court Manager

****** County Court

Court Address

Court P/code

 

 

[date]

 

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

 

 

You -v- Bank Plc

Claim Number: *******

 

 

 

It is noted that in my case referenced above that the Allocation Questionnaire has been dispensed with. I am aware that this is likely due to the large volume of claims that consumers are bring against the high street banks. I am also aware that to date the banks have failed to defend a case in the courts and that they often use the court process to extend and delay the period of time within which they deal with these matters satisfactorily.

 

 

 

In light of this the Claimant respectfully suggests that special directions may be made as per the enclosed draft order.

 

 

 

The Claimant believes the proposed directions will further the Overriding Objectives in that they identify the most fundamental issues in dispute (as detailed below), and allow them to be assessed in advance of any hearing so that this claim may proceed justly and expeditiously.

 

 

 

- The crux upon which this claim rests is the true loss suffered by the Defendant as a result of the contractual breach from which its charges arise. If the Defendant cannot substantiate the cost of each charge as proportionate to its loss incurred, it has charged contractual penalties contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and common law principles established since the early 1900's.

 

 

 

- In the event that the Defendant's charges were accepted as being a fee for a service (which is refuted), examination of its true costs is required to determine whether the price is reasonable as required by the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.

 

 

 

The Claimant believes that if the Defendant has the serious intention of defending this claim at trial as is indicated by its defence, that it is incumbent on it to disclose such information. Further, the proposed directions are already routinely ordered in claims of this nature in the Mercantile Court in London, as well as in small claims track cases in Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Northampton and Mansfield County Courts.

 

 

 

As the law relating to contractual penalties is long established, the Claimant believes the outstanding issues to be of fact. Accordingly, the Claimant respectfully requests that this claim be allocated to the small claims track, and estimates that the hearing of the claim should last no longer than one hour.

 

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

[name]

 

 

 

enc: Draft Order

 

 

 

 

THEN ON A SEPARATE PIECE OF PAPER - THIS:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Draft Order for Directions

 

 

 

 

1. The Claimant shall within 14 days of service of this order send to the Defendant and to the Court:

• a) A schedule setting out each charge repayment of which is sought, showing the date, amount, and reason given (if any) for that charge being made;

• b) Copies of any statement or other document relied upon as showing that each and every charge has been made;

• c) A statement of evidence of all matters relied upon as tending to show that the charges are irrecoverable as penalties or otherwise;

• d) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

If the Claimant fails to comply with this order, the claim will be struck out without further order.

 

 

 

2. The Defendant shall within 14 days thereafter file and serve a response to the Claimant's schedule, stating in respect of each item claimed;

• a) Pursuant to what contractual provision such charge was made, producing a copy of the contractual document relied upon;

• b) Whether such charge is accepted to be a penalty, and if not why not;

• c) If such charge is alleged to be a pre-estimate of the Defendant's loss incurred by the Claimant's actions (whether or not such action is treated as a breach of contract between the parties), all facts and matters intended to be relied upon as showing that such was a proper estimate of such loss, and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to what the true cost of dealing with the matter was;

• d) If such charge is not alleged to be a pre-estimate of the Defendant's loss incurred by the Claimant's actions then facts and matters intended to be relied upon showing the basis upon which the charge was calculated and all evidence to be adduced at trial as to show that the charge was fair and reasonable.

• e) Any witness statements.

• f) Copies of decided cases and other legal materials to be relied upon.

If the Defendant fails to comply with this order, the Defence will be struck out without further order.

 

 

 

 

AND ONE FURTHER BIT OF INFO - I KNOW IT'S DRAGGING THIS POST OUT BUT I THINK IT BEST TO HAVE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE ALL IN ONE PLACE SO:

 

If the judge were to grant the draft order it would mean that when the court asks for the info - this is it, in triplicate (one set for you, one for the court and one for dg) - so DON'T do this until it is ordered by the court and it is about 5 days from being required as it is a heck of a lot of copying - probably over 200 pages times 3.

but this is the info that would be required should the draft direction be made an order:

 

If the judge agrees with the draft order and makes it a direction, it will come back to you and you will have at least 14 days (the date will be on the paperwork) to send in four things:

 

a) your schedule of charges. (ie a copy of your spreadsheet)

b) your statements showing the charges. Alternatively, the list of charges which the bank provided under your S.A.R (subject Access Request) (only send the statements with charges on them.)

c) A Statement of Evidence: (post 55 in the new strategy): New strategy for Allocation Questionaires

d) All the statutes and decided cases on which your claim relies. ie, UTCCR's, UCTA's, SOGA, case law, etc. For this, I'd just submit the whole of the Basic Court Bundle.

 

This whole thing runs to around 200 pages and should be done in triplicate: one copy for you, one for the court and one for dg – that’s 600 pages of copying – LEAVE IT UNTIL YOU KNOW FOR SURE YOU NEED IT. If an offer comes in from DG and is accepted you wouldn’t need it. Really leave it until you have to do it to meet the deadline set by the court!

 

COPIED AND PASTED FROM ANOTHER POST........ Just in case anybody needs it. Fendy xxx

vbrep_register("725541")

[hedgey06]

Wow Fendy........... You're an absolute star!!! xxx

[fendyweather]

I try Hedge, I try.......... Lol xx

[hedgey06]

Methinks the shaky ass bunny given you a new lease of life!!! Gawd help us!!!!!!!! xxxxxxxxxxxx

(soz for thread hijack bloodster!! xx)

[martin2006]

Stunning Fendy..................Do you not get out much anymore?......LOL

[fendyweather]

Hi Martin, I was actually directed to this bit by Michael Browne when I got the same letter saying the AQ was being dispensed with. So hence, thats how I knew how to handle this. Thanks to Michael Browne. Not me......... Lol. Bless. Fendy xx

[thebloodster]

Thank you!! So I shouldn't send anything to Cobbetts then? I'm just concerned they say they haven't had a charges list and they want the info by 26th April. Also should I not be responsing to the CPR Request made by Cobbets?

 

With the Notice Of Transfer there was a faxed copy of the Cobbets defence and request for Info. However the court hasn't said to do anything!!

[fendyweather]

To be on the safe side sent another copy of your charges spreadsheet to them by recorded delivery, and together with the info above, draft order for directions etc. all by recorded. That way you can prove they have had your list of charges........... in detail. All the best. Fendy xx

[fendyweather]

Your claim is less than 5K. You are not obliged to respond to CPR part 18, unless the court specifically asks for it. So no, dont respond to that, other than to send list of charges. End of....... with the letters Ive posted above, but remember to copy in court.

 

xx

[thebloodster]

Brilliant you're a STAR!!!!! 8-)

[Parkvale]

Bloodstar,

Fendy is quite right you don't have to answer, but cobblers do this CPR 18 reqest to intimidate people. Youcould send the following with your chargesheets to the court and cobblers. Good luck.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Acknowledge the receipt of the defence posted on behalf of National Westminster Bank PLC.

I am not prepared at this stage to answer the CPR Part 18 Request. I anticipate that the claim will be allocated to the small claims track and would not then expect to have to deal with a Part 18 request since these are specifically excluded under Part 27 unless the court specifically orders me to do so of its own initiative. As I understand the above I shall not be replying to this request unless asked to do so by the courts and your deadline of the 26th April 2007 for this request will not be met.

 

 

Furthermore I consider that the CPR part 18 request is intimidatory and I intend to bring the intimidation to the notice of the court. However, for clarity, I confirm the charges I am claiming were applied to the following account:

Account Name: Mr bloodster

Account number: ********

Sort Code: ******

Please also find enclosed a breakdown of all charges I am claiming. I will however point out that a copy of this breakdown has been sent to your client on two occasions and was filed with the N1 when I approached the courts to make this claim.

 

 

Yours Faithfully

 

[thebloodster]

I am mindful of the vast number of claims with which you are currently dealing. In order to more speedily resolve this matter, I am willing to accept the sum of £xxxx. (rounded down to nearest pound-keep this as your full amount including charges, interest and court filing fee). I do not agree to waive my rights in respect of any other actions, nor do I agree to a clause of confidentiality.

 

 

Right I'm ready to send the letters to the court and cobblers!! Just a few questions on the charges mentioned here.

 

Do I include interest up to the date of the letter? ie 23rd Apr

Do I include the £5 statement charge? I would think not as its not really an unfair fee?

Do I copy the court into this letter?

[fendyweather]

Hi again,

 

1) Yes, include interest up to the date of the letter you are sending, remember total rounded down to nearest pound.

 

2) Up to you whether you include the £5 statement charge. I didnt, but you can if you like. Thats entirely up to you, but it might be seen as a nice gesture by judge if you dont bother putting it on, i.e. you conceded you havent tried to claim this back, i.e. making you look like a person who has tried to negotiate already, to the judge.

 

3) Yes, you send a copy of the letter to the court, definitely....... by recorded, so they can see your attempts at negotiation prior to going through the court system.

 

All the best. Go get em tiger.

 

Fendy xx

[thebloodster]

Thanks yet again!!!

 

Right just to get myself clear on what I am sending where now!!

 

1) Letter to Cobbetts regarding no AQ and giving a settlement figure (and inc charge list)

 

2) Copy of above letter to court (on letter above I assume it should have cc Manchester County Court

 

3) Letter to court inc Draft order (Do I send this to cobbetts also - i think maybe not?)

 

Also I think a final question - should I not mention the CPR request in my cobbetts letter?

 

Oh and should I send the two letters to the courts as seperate letters?

 

And another question - should I include the £120 court fee at the bottom of the list of charges (but not include date or interest)

Thanks again for all your help

[thebloodster]

Thanks yet again!!!

 

Right just to get myself clear on what I am sending where now!!

 

1) Letter to Cobbetts regarding no AQ and giving a settlement figure (and inc charge list)

 

2) Copy of above letter to court (on letter above I assume it should have cc Manchester County Court

 

3) Letter to court inc Draft order (Do I send this to cobbetts also - i think maybe not?)

 

Also I think a final question - should I not mention the CPR request in my cobbetts letter?

 

Oh and should I send the two letters to the courts as seperate letters?

 

And another question - should I include the £120 court fee at the bottom of the list of charges (but not include date or interest)

Thanks again for all your help

[scott150663]

Thanks yet again!!!

 

Right just to get myself clear on what I am sending where now!!

 

1) Letter to Cobbetts regarding no AQ and giving a settlement figure (and inc charge list) YES

 

2) Copy of above letter to court (on letter above I assume it should have cc Manchester County Court YES

 

3) Letter to court inc Draft order (Do I send this to cobbetts also - i think maybe not?) YES & YES

 

Also I think a final question - should I not mention the CPR request in my cobbetts letter? yes mention it

 

Oh and should I send the two letters to the courts as seperate letters? NO make sure its recorded delivery

 

And another question - should I include the £120 court fee at the bottom of the list of charges (but not include date or interest)

Thanks again for all your help

 

 

not sure what u mean on last question

 

Scott

[Deller]

Dont include the court fee on your schedule as this was not a charge, it is a fee which is reclaimable though and you will get this back too.

[thebloodster]

Thanks for your help but again I just want to be absolutely sure!!

 

This is the letter I'm sending to Cobbetts (copy to Court) does it sound ok, I've merged two letters on this site to come up with this and I think it covers me!!

 

 

Cobbetts LLP

Ship Canal House

King Street

Manchester

M2 4WB

 

 

Re: name -v- NATIONAL WESTMINSTER BANK PLC

ACCOUNT NUMBER: ********

Claim Number: ********, Filing Date 12th March 2007

 

It has come to my attention that as of 13/04/07, that an Allocation Questionnaire may not be required in this case.

 

I am mindful of the vast number of claims with which you are currently dealing. In order to more speedily resolve this matter, I am willing to accept the sum of £2707 (bank charges & court fee). I do not agree to waive my rights in respect of any other actions, nor do I agree to a clause of confidentiality.

 

I Acknowledge the receipt of the defence posted on behalf of National Westminster Bank plc.

 

I am not prepared at this stage to answer the CPR Part 18 Request. I anticipate that the claim will be allocated to the small claims track and would not then expect to have to deal with a Part 18 request since these are specifically excluded under Part 27 unless the court specifically orders me to do so of its own initiative

 

Furthermore I consider that the CPR part 18 request is intimidatory and I intend to bring the intimidation to the notice of the court. However, for clarity, I confirm the charges I am claiming were applied to the following account:

Account Name:

Account number:

Sort Code:

 

I hope to hear from you very soon so that a reasonable conclusion to this claim might be achieved. I am sure that the courts would approve of our settling this matter in a timely manner and without their further intervention.

 

For your records, I enclose another copy of my schedule of charges. I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Name

 

 

Cc Manchester County Court

[thebloodster]

I am also intending to send this to Manchester County Court (copy to Cobbetts)

 

The Court Manager

Manchester County Court

Crown Square

Manchester

M60 9DJ

Dear Sir/Madam

Name-v- NATIONAL WESTMINSTER BANK PLC

Claim Number: *******

It is noted that in my case referenced above that the Allocation Questionnaire has been dispensed with. I am aware that this is likely due to the large volume of claims that consumers are bring against the high street banks. I am also aware that to date the banks have failed to defend a case in the courts and that they often use the court process to extend and delay the period of time within which they deal with these matters satisfactorily.

In light of this the Claimant respectfully suggests that special directions may be made as per the enclosed draft order.

The Claimant believes the proposed directions will further the Overriding Objectives in that they identify the most fundamental issues in dispute (as detailed below), and allow them to be assessed in advance of any hearing so that this claim may proceed justly and expeditiously.

- The crux upon which this claim rests is the true loss suffered by the Defendant as a result of the contractual breach from which its charges arise. If the Defendant cannot substantiate the cost of each charge as proportionate to its loss incurred, it has charged contractual penalties contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and common law principles established since the early 1900's.

- In the event that the Defendant's charges were accepted as being a fee for a service (which is refuted), examination of its true costs is required to determine whether the price is reasonable as required by the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.

The Claimant believes that if the Defendant has the serious intention of defending this claim at trial as is indicated by its defence, that it is incumbent on it to disclose such information. Further, the proposed directions are already routinely ordered in claims of this nature in the Mercantile Court in London, as well as in small claims track cases in Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Northampton and Mansfield County Courts.

As the law relating to contractual penalties is long established, the Claimant believes the outstanding issues to be of fact. Accordingly, the Claimant respectfully requests that this claim be allocated to the small claims track, and estimates that the hearing of the claim should last no longer than one hour.

Yours faithfully,

Name

enc: Draft Order

cc Cobbetts LLP

[thebloodster]

Should I send both letters to Cobbetts in the same envelope and both letters to the Court in the same envelope?

[scott150663]

hi

 

looks good to me

 

is the final figure inc of 8%? have u claimed the 8%?

 

dont forget to send recorded delivery & sign it.......

 

scott

[thebloodster]

Yes the final figure does include 8%, should I say

 

£2707 (charges, 8% interest and court fee)

[martin2006]

Excellent. send it.