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Kazzie

Think i've messed up big time **DEFENCE & C/C STRUCK OUT** WON**

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Hi all,

We started two claims with 'money claim online', one to Nationwide and one to Lloyds. It's only since we discovered this website that we realised we didn't follow the correct procedure with our claims.

We sent the banks the standard letter before taking action, but in the court form we only stated that we were claiming back unfair charges without giving any more details, and we only gave the amount we were claiming (without a breakdown of how we came to the figure). Nationwide settled yesterday (£590.00 plus £80.00 costs), however Lloyds have filed a defence, which i recieved today, which is extremely worrying to us.

The first part of their defence states that;

" This defence is served without prejudice to the Defendant's contention that the statement of claim is insufficiently particularised and is embarrassing"

I understand from what i have just read on the forums that this is a standard reply, and that i can right this by enclosing more detailed reasons for my claim along with the Allocation questionnaire i have to return.

What really worries me is that Lloyds have filed a counterclaim for an amount that is 10 times higher than the charges i am trying to claim back from them. This counterclaim is made up of the balance on an unpaid loan, account balance and overdraft. The account was shut down over a year ago when we experienced financial difficulties. My account was then passed on to Lloyds collection agency, and this debt has since been passed on to a Debt Collection Agency with whom we have an arrangement to pay a monthly amount off of the debt.

I now feel i am in way over my head. Can they legally counterclaim this amount from me even though, as far as i am aware, the debt has been passed on to someone unconnected with the bank and is no longer Lloyds debt?

I would be grateful for any advice on how i should proceed. Thank you.

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are you up to date with your payments to the DCA?

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are you up to date with your payments to the DCA?

Hi nicsussex, yes i am up to date with my payments.

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what is the amount you are claiming from Lloyds?

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what is the amount you are claiming from Lloyds?

Just over £1.500, without the fees added.

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Back to your post 1. that is not the normal defence and your claim will fail based on your current particulars.

 

You must file an amendment to your particulars (you will have to pay a non refundable fee of £35) using this form:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/41901-form-n244-application-notice.html

 

based on particulars from here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/681-4-particulars-claim-n1.html

 

Given you used MCOL you may be not be able to do this yet. Can you provide more details, like when you issued your claim, the Lloyds counterclaim words.

 

As they have a counterclaim, we need to consider your exposure to the other sides claim and their legal costs as their counterclaim is likely to be above £5K.

 

I am concerned that their claim is 10 x your charges. I do not wish to scaremonger, but this is serious as you do not have a penalty charge claim to extinguish most of the counterclaim.

 

Although I am not sure on this point, I see no problem with Lloyds counterclaiming even though the debts was passed to a DCA, but I would be happy for someone to correct me.

 

If you owe them around £10K, you should not have started this claim, but that is too late now.

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Hi Guidot,

The claim was issued through MCOL on 14/3/07 and i recieved Lloyds defence and counterclaim through the post today (19/4/07).

The counterclaim consists of listing all the dates of when i opened the account, when i took a loan out with them and dates that i defaulted etc.

It goes on to list the amounts i owe on my select account, the amount i owe on the loan account and the interest pursuant to section 69 of the County Courts Act. This brings the amount counterclaimed to over £16.000.

I have just rang the DCA whom i am making the Lloyds repayments to, and asked them if they had bought the debt from lloyds. They seemed a bit cagey but said that no they hadn't, and that they were acting for lloyds. I then asked them what i should do if Lloyds were to write to me asking me to make repayments to them. They replied that i should pay nothing to lloyds and to tell them that Moorcroft were now dealing with the debt. This sounds a little bit odd to me, as i also make regular payments to this same DCO for another debt unrelated to Lloyds. Do you think that what they say is true? Based on your concerns, can i decide not to take this any further through the courts (presuming that i would come out of it a lot worse off), and if so would that be the end of it including the counterclaim? Thanks very much for your advice.

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Point out to the dca that you are disputing the debt with LloydsTSB they are then effectivly barred from chasing you.

 

Likr you I had a MCOL claim go pear shaped, PM me ah I may be able to help

 

J

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You may think that but . . ......

____________________________________

Total repaid to date £1947.58

 

Lloyds Currrent a/c £745.27

Moneyclaim filed 17th June

Defence and AQ 25th July. Case struck out 11 Aug

reinstated and hearing 15th Jan 2007

 

Lloyds loan a/c D A request expired 19th June

Proceedings under S7 Data Protection Act issued 29th June defence and counterclaim 27 July

Hearing Jan 3 2007

Listed final hearing April 2007-

Judge declared an interest and disqualified himself

new date to be set

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If you stop your claim, then no that does not bring an end to the counterclaim.

 

Is the £16,000 about correct?

 

I am really not sure of the position here with the DCA and having agreed a payment plan and the impact of this on the Lloyds' prospects with the counterclaim.

 

I am going to get someone in the know to have a look at your thread.


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If you stop your claim, then no that does not bring an end to the counterclaim.

 

Is the £16,000 about correct?

 

I am really not sure of the position here with the DCA and having agreed a payment plan and the impact of this on the Lloyds' prospects with the counterclaim.

 

I am going to get someone in the know to have a look at your thread.

 

£16.500 is more accurate. I have no assets and Lloyds know of my financial position. They know i can only repay the monthly equivalent of a token gesture.

 

They offered me a cheque guarantee card, an overdraft facility and a £10.000 loan whilst i was on benefits. Though i take full responsibility (or irresponsibilty) for accepting their offer, and getting myself in a financial mess, surely they must realise that this is not going to look too good on them should it go to court.

 

Thanks very much for getting someone else to have a look at my thread

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Was this loan made up of charges?

Send lloyds a CCA request and a full SAR requesting the original loan agreement.

Have a look at this thread here which has loan issues in it as well.


Consumer Health Forums - where you can discuss any health or relationship matters.

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Was this loan made up of charges?

Send lloyds a CCA request and a full SAR requesting the original loan agreement.

Have a look at this thread here which has loan issues in it as well.

 

Hi Gizmo

 

I've had a look at the thread that you linked to and no, the loan wasn't to cover charges. It was a straight forward personal loan.

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Yes, as Giz said get a CCA and SAR off straight away - like first thing tomorrow morning by 1st class recorded delivery.

 

Also, can you post the counterclaim in its entirety please? In fact I'll PM you my e-mail if you'd prefer to do it that way.

 

I'm not sure there's going to be much chance of avoiding a CCJ here, but we can try at least.

 

You'll also need to amend your claim ASAP - see the thread Nic posted earlier, if there is anything your not sure of just shout.

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Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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Thanks for all the above help and advice.

 

Just to update you i sent the SAR and the CCA off by recorded first class post yesterday (21/04/07).

 

I wish i had found this site in the first place. After reading so much of the advice on the forum, i realise how much i've messed up. I, like so many others i would imagine, just rushed in without giving it much thought. It really is essential to spend a few days reading the forum before making a claim. if i had done that in the first place i would have saved myself a lot of work and worry! Knowing what i now know, i'm amazed that Nationwide paid up (£670.00 on the 17th April) when my POC said nothing more than 'claiming back unfair bank charges'!

 

GaryH is helping me with my defence as regards Lloyds counterclaim (thank you GaryH). I have PM'd him with a few questions, but have just read that i should post any questions on the open forum that could probably be answered by other members (sorry GaryH for PM'ing you willy nilly!) Hopefully someone can advise me.

 

As the details of my original claim were insufficent, i have to submit a new particulars of claim. I have filled in the N1 and the N244 and am planning to take them to the court on Tuesday. As i understand it, i need to take 3 copies of each of the above, plus 3 copies of my schedule of charges (i take it this is what is referred to as the 'spreadsheet'?) plus £35.00. Could anyone please confirm this?

 

Should i take the AQ to the court along with the above or will it not make any difference if i take it in with my defence at a later date, as i'm having a little trouble filling the AQ in (it has to be in by 2/05/07).

 

As the counterclaim is for over £15,000 the court have said in a letter to me that if the defendant does not pay the £100 court fee within 10 days (of the 13th April), then the counterclaim will be struck out.

Will the court let me know if Lloyds pay this in time? The letter also says that i must return the AQ with a court fee of £100 if the claim is for over £15,000. As my claim is for around £1,700 (with interest) and the counterclaim is for around £16,000, does the court count the combined value of the claim when considering if a fee is payable, and if so does this mean that i have to pay the £100 as well?

 

With question C of the AQ (track), should i agree that the small claims track is the most suitable? It states in the notes on the back of the AQ that disputes over £15,000 are allocated to the Muti-track, so again i'm not sure when answering this if i should count the combined value of the claim plus the counterclaim.

 

In section G of the AQ should i follow the 'New Strategy For A.Q's' as in GaryH's thread, or would it not be in my interest to possibly speed things up seeing as i still have to get a defence to the counterclaim together, or would this not make any difference?

 

Phew, sorry if i'm rambling :? . From what i've read i should start a 'kazzie v Lloyds' thread. I'm not sure how i would move this thread to the new one so would appreciate any help on doing that.

 

Thanks again for the help so far.

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Thanks for all the above help and advice.

 

Just to update you i sent the SAR and the CCA off by recorded first class post yesterday (21/04/07).

Excellent, well done

I wish i had found this site in the first place. After reading so much of the advice on the forum, i realise how much i've messed up. I, like so many others i would imagine, just rushed in without giving it much thought. It really is essential to spend a few days reading the forum before making a claim. if i had done that in the first place i would have saved myself a lot of work and worry! Knowing what i now know, i'm amazed that Nationwide paid up (£670.00 on the 17th April) when my POC said nothing more than 'claiming back unfair bank charges'!

Wow - believe me you were lucky! No such luck with Lloyds I'm afraid, they'll seize on every possible opportunity.

GaryH is helping me with my defence as regards Lloyds counterclaim (thank you GaryH). I have PM'd him with a few questions, but have just read that i should post any questions on the open forum that could probably be answered by other members (sorry GaryH for PM'ing you willy nilly!) Hopefully someone can advise me.

Not a problem, I asked you to PM me so its fine.:)

As the details of my original claim were insufficent, i have to submit a new particulars of claim. I have filled in the N1 and the N244 and am planning to take them to the court on Tuesday. As i understand it, i need to take 3 copies of each of the above, plus 3 copies of my schedule of charges (i take it this is what is referred to as the 'spreadsheet'?) plus £35.00. Could anyone please confirm this?

Yes, correct - Schedule of charges = spreadsheet

Should i take the AQ to the court along with the above or will it not make any difference if i take it in with my defence at a later date, as i'm having a little trouble filling the AQ in (it has to be in by 2/05/07).

In fact, I'd take it all in at the same time. Leave it all til the 2nd, or just before. The court won't take any action on it before then anyway.

As the counterclaim is for over £15,000 the court have said in a letter to me that if the defendant does not pay the £100 court fee within 10 days (of the 13th April), then the counterclaim will be struck out.

Will the court let me know if Lloyds pay this in time? The letter also says that i must return the AQ with a court fee of £100 if the claim is for over £1,500. As my claim is for around £1,700 (with interest) and the counterclaim is for around £16,000, does the court count the combined value of the claim when considering if a fee is payable, and if so does this mean that i have to pay the £100 as well?

Ring the court and ask - knowing Lloyds they may not have, they're the most innefficiant company I've ever had the misfortune to come accross. That said, don't raise your hopes to high - it might be different when it comes to them suing you, rather than the other way around!

 

Yes, I'm afraid that unless you qualify for exemption or remission - which is worth looking into - then you'll need to pay the £100.

With question C of the AQ (track), should i agree that the small claims track is the most suitable? It states in the notes on the back of the AQ that disputes over £15,000 are allocated to the Muti-track, so again i'm not sure when answering this if i should count the combined value of the claim plus the counterclaim.

Ask for small claims - you probably won't get it becouse of the counterclaim, but ask anyway.

In section G of the AQ should i follow the 'New Strategy For A.Q's' as in GaryH's thread, or would it not be in my interest to possibly speed things up seeing as i still have to get a defence to the counterclaim together, or would this not make any difference?

Can do if you want - although your main worry is not the amount you are claiming for, its the amount you are defending! Yes, actually I would ask for disclosure anyway.

Phew, sorry if i'm rambling :? . From what i've read i should start a 'kazzie v Lloyds' thread. I'm not sure how i would move this thread to the new one so would appreciate any help on doing that.

Not really necessary, unless you want to. I can change the title for you if you like?

Thanks again for the help so far.

 

You've got options on this, but unfortunately none are without an element of risk.

 

In all likelyhood Lloyds will settle the claim further down the line then continue with the counterclaim, minus the £1700.

 

By the 2nd of May you need to either defend, or admit the amount owing.

 

You have everyright to see the copy of the CCA agreements before you plead specifically, and in fact if the agreement cannot be provided to you by the creditor or is not properly executed then the debt becomes unenforceable anyway, under section 77 of the CCA. This is your only opportunity to get out of this situation 'unscathed' as far as I can see - and I should also say that I'm not an 'expert' on this sort of stuff.

 

On this basis you could rebut the counterclaim, saying you've requested a copy of the agreement under the CCA and that it should have been served attached to the claim form in the fist place. You would also state that you reserve the right to plead further if/when they provide you with the agreement. The defence would be simular (but shorter) to this - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/41729-pen-lloyds-tsb-15.html#post668541

 

Having said that, that defence was drafted for a claim in which I knew already that there was a very good chance that the agreement could not be provided, as it had previously been requested to no avail. In your case, in all honesty its quite hard to envisage how they would not be able to come up with an agreement which was signed as recently as 2004, although its not entirely inconceivable I suppose.

 

As the claim would likely go to fast track you could also submit a part 18 request for further information, and see if we can pick holes in their counterclaim that way. If you fight them and we can find some flaws in the agreement or the counterclaim in general, then they might just decide they don't fancy it and back down.

 

Another thing you must consider though, if you choose this route, is that the claim will almost certainly be fast tracked, so if you defend, then later go on to admit at a later date or indeed lose, you may also be liable for Lloyds' legal costs.

 

The other alternative is to file an admission with a request for time to pay. You'd file an income/expenditure schedule and offer a small amount in disposable income to pay as installments. This post may be useful in this regard - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/alliance-leicester/38265-im-so-fed-up.html#post300647

 

Lloyds could contest this amount if they choose to, although this is unlikely as they would probably not get better than that from the judge if they pursued to a trial or hearing. This does mean however, that you would inevitably have a CCJ on your credit file.

 

The choice has to be yours. We'll help you either way, and should you decide to defend we can work on a defence for you. Unfortunately there is no easy way out of this - take all the factors into consideration and make a decision. Any further questions, let me know - I'll be back this afternoon.

 

I'd also like to know a bit more about the circumstances under which you were given this loan, how it was sold, any PPI, etc. Obviously you can PM me with this.


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You've got options on this, but unfortunately none are without an element of risk.

 

In all likelyhood Lloyds will settle the claim further down the line then continue with the counterclaim, minus the £1700.

I think i could live with that!

 

By the 2nd of May you need to either defend, or admit the amount owing.

 

You have everyright to see the copy of the CCA agreements before you plead specifically, and in fact if the agreement cannot be provided to you by the creditor or is not properly executed then the debt becomes unenforceable anyway, under section 77 of the CCA. This is your only opportunity to get out of this situation 'unscathed' as far as I can see - and I should also say that I'm not an 'expert' on this sort of stuff.

 

On this basis you could rebut the counterclaim, saying you've requested a copy of the agreement under the CCA and that it should have been served attached to the claim form in the fist place. You would also state that you reserve the right to plead further if/when they provide you with the agreement. The defence would be simular (but shorter) to this - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/41729-pen-lloyds-tsb-15.html#post668541

 

Having said that, that defence was drafted for a claim in which I knew already that there was a very good chance that the agreement could not be provided, as it had previously been requested to no avail. In your case, in all honesty its quite hard to envisage how they would not be able to come up with an agreement which was signed as recently as 2004, although its not entirely inconceivable I suppose.

 

As the claim would likely go to fast track you could also submit a part 18 request for further information, and see if we can pick holes in their counterclaim that way. If you fight them and we can find some flaws in the agreement or the counterclaim in general, then they might just decide they don't fancy it and back down.

 

Another thing you must consider though, if you choose this route, is that the claim will almost certainly be fast tracked, so if you defend, then later go on to admit at a later date or indeed lose, you may also be liable for Lloyds' legal costs.

I'm concerned about this one, have i not already admitted i owe this amount simply by not disputing it and coming to an agreement with Moorcroft (who are acting for Lloyds) to repay the debt?

If so then i presume i can't reasonably defend it. Can Lloyds reasonably counterclaim me for this amount even though i have effectively come to an agreement with them already (via their agents) by providing their agents with an income/expenditure schedule and coming to a mutually agreeable payment arrangement (which is still running and is up to date)?

 

The other alternative is to file an admission with a request for time to pay. You'd file an income/expenditure schedule and offer a small amount in disposable income to pay as installments. This post may be useful in this regard - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/alliance-leicester/38265-im-so-fed-up.html#post300647

 

Lloyds could contest this amount if they choose to, although this is unlikely as they would probably not get better than that from the judge if they pursued to a trial or hearing. This does mean however, that you would inevitably have a CCJ on your credit file.

Another CCJ on my credit file is not going to make a lot of difference to my credit rating unfortunately :rolleyes:

 

The choice has to be yours. We'll help you either way, and should you decide to defend we can work on a defence for you. Unfortunately there is no easy way out of this - take all the factors into consideration and make a decision. Any further questions, let me know - I'll be back this afternoon.

 

I'd also like to know a bit more about the circumstances under which you were given this loan, how it was sold, any PPI, etc. Obviously you can PM me with this.

Ok, will PM you with the details. The circumstances in which i was sold this loan were certainly questionable. There are also a number of inconsistences and inaccuracies in their defence which could possibly be helpful, will PM these as well. Thanks again for your help.

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Kazzi, any PPI on the loan?. .

 

Uk


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Kazzi, any PPI on the loan?. .

 

Uk

 

Hi Ukaviator, no PPI on the loan unfortunately.

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Wow, i've just had great news (fingers crossed!)

 

When the court sent me a copy of Lloyds defence they enclosed a letter saying that Lloyds had not yet paid the £100 Counterclaim fee, and if they did not do so within 10 days of the date of the letter, then the counterclaim will be struck out. Well i've just rang the court and Lloyds haven't paid the Counterclaim fee, Yipee, i'm chuffed as a box of frogs:grin:

 

The nice, helpful, lovely, bearer of good news man that i spoke to, was a bit hesitant and said he wasn't legally trained but he was obviously allowed access to my file. Could someone just tell me if what he has said is right? (have suddenly gone from being chuffed as a box of frogs to cautiously optimistic :roll: )

 

When he said that they hadn't recieved the fee i asked him what i should do now.

He said to do absolutely nothing, and to just make sure i get my AQ and fee in by the due date. He also said if the defendant pays the Counterclaim fee then the court write to let me know, but if the defendant doesn't pay it, then the court doesn't write to let me know.

He added that if i don't hear from the court then i should get all my papers in on time minus a defence, and to only bring in a defence if the court write to say that the fee has been recieved.

 

Does this all sound about right, and if Lloyds send in their fee after the deadline is there any chance that the court will allow the counterclaim to stand?

 

It will be such a weight off my mind if this goes back to being a straightforward claim. Please please everyone, keep your fingers crossed for me :)

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fingers crossed! got everything crossed Kazzie:D hope like GaryH said in post 16 through their ineffeciancy it gets struck out or off where :pever it go's .

Will be watching your thread with bated breath, all the best.


LTSB court date 25/7/07

17/7/07 I WON I WON I WON!!!!:p :grin:

HSBC court date 11/9/07 (stayed)

CapOne lba 7/1/08-15/3/08 WON.

Citicards lba 14/1/08

 

Read Read and Read Some:razz: More

 

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Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Seek the advice of an insured qualified professional if you have any doubts.

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Do not get your hopes up too much - sorry. The courts will give a least one written warning about non payment of the fee to Lloyds prior to the counterclaim being struck out.

 

Anyway it is a bit of an empty victory if it does get struck out, as all Lloyds have to do is start a separate action for what would have been the counterclaim.


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My bitter experience tells me that you should go to Citizens Advice, explain everything and ask to have an appointment with a solicitor.

 

This will cost you nothing financially.

 

The solicitor can be with you in Court if it gets that far and will be able to tell the judge how you were given the loan, i.e. your personal circumstances at the time.

 

You probably should not have taken the finance from LTSB at the time, but neither should they have offered it to you.

 

I think that they are trying to scare you by counterclaiming and a solicitor will give you both confidence and skill in court.

 

I have had personal experience of a Citizens Advice solicitor and he was excellent.

 

This situation is not nearly as bad as it seems.

 

All the very best

 

Gladstanes

 

This is my opinion.

 

Please take professional advice.

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Do not get your hopes up too much - sorry. The courts will give a least one written warning about non payment of the fee to Lloyds prior to the counterclaim being struck out.

 

Anyway it is a bit of an empty victory if it does get struck out, as all Lloyds have to do is start a separate action for what would have been the counterclaim.

 

Then let them bring it on. They are just trying to intimidate me and it isn't going to work.

 

I could still win (where there's life there's hope) and if i don't it will probably result in a CCJ that i have to pay a nominal amount to each month (probably far less than i'm currently paying them via their DCA).

 

If their Counterclaim is still allowed, i am still going to defend it for all i'm worth. I've had enough of this now and even if i don't win i'm not going down without a fight.

 

Between now and the court date i'm going to read up on everything i can, and i'm going to bring up everything in court that has gone on before hand with them.

The circumstances of how they sold me the loan, (though i shouldn't have taken it out it the first place, i do have a defence as to why i did that, that should hold up in court) the circumstances where they tried to sell me another £20,000 loan, the circumstances where they allowed me to run up a massive (under the circumstances) overdraft and the way in which their DCA has threatened and harassed me.

If it goes to court i'm also going to contact the papers and make as much noise about it beforehand as possible. The local paper will certainly be interested in my story as it's my local branch that has commited a few very questionable practices to say the least.

 

The reality of it is that they have far more to lose than me, and i'm going to ensure that they know that.

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Gladstanes,

 

Your advice is excellent - if in any doubt, in situations such as this, and indeed any situation involving court proceedings, then the best thing to do is always to consult a legal professional. I wholehartedly agree and I do in fact advise as such myself. This site cannot give formal legal advice and it does not purport to.

 

Unfortunately however, we have wildly differing experiances of the effectivness (or not) of the CAB in these situations. You were very lucky!

Time and time again I see on these forums, and also through my own experiance, instances where the CAB either cannot, or will not, stand up to the creditor in situations such as this.

 

They will "negotiate" on your behalf - I.e. make an offer to pay a sum in installments for you, but if that is not accepted by the creditor then 9 times out of ten you are on your own. Case in point - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/41729-pen-lloyds-tsb.html

Let me know if you want any more, I can think of at least 5 simular cases straight off the top of my head.

 

We've been successful in helping a vast many people who had previously been to the CAB and found them to be utterly toothless.

 

Kazzie,

 

Having said the above, it would still probably be a good idea to go to the CAB tomorrow and see what they say. I would'nt hold out much hope, but you can try. You should explore all options - as I said before, this is not an easy situation.

 

Having heard what they have to say, you can weigh up your options in view of all the potential implications of each and choose which one is best (or perhaps least worst!) for you.

 

You have every right to see the agreement before you plead fully, and defending on this basis is totally valid. Its incumbant on the creditor to provide a true copy of the original agreement.

 

I think you also potentially have a story which will interest the press. I'm going to go through everything you have provided to me by PM and e-mail in the next couple of days and also seek further advice on it all.


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Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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