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NCP Car Parks clamped, removed & destroyed my car without my knowledge from private..


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"Which of course they wouldn't because they will be able to show that the person who picked up the car was acting on instructions and the person giving the instructions was acting in good faith using the (inaccurate) information given to him by DVLA. It was a mistake, pure and simple, and the Police will very quickly decide that there are zero grounds for prosecution of an offence under the Theft Act."

 

Ah yes, the Nuremburg Defence.

 

"I vos only obeying orders, mein herr."

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By private prosecution I would assume he means civil case, "prosecution" not being the right word here but probably not what was intended.

 

Individuals cannot of course bring criminal prosecutions, but they are fully entitled to pursue any civil matters through the appropriate courts, which the OP should do in the event that he cannot settle the matter amicably and satisfactorily.

Please note I'm not insured in this capacity, so if you need to, do get official legal advice.

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By private prosecution I would assume he means civil case, "prosecution" not being the right word here but probably not what was intended.

 

Individuals cannot of course bring criminal prosecutions, but they are fully entitled to pursue any civil matters through the appropriate courts, which the OP should do in the event that he cannot settle the matter amicably and satisfactorily.

 

I fairly sure that anyperson can bring a private criminal prosecution. Theres been a few high profile cases over the years where the CPS have failed to Act and the individual themselves have prosecuted.

 

In the above case there is clearly no dishonesty, incompetance maybe dishonesty I doubt.

7 actions in progress

 

amount refunded so far £6500

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I didn't believe individuals have powers to prosecute in the criminal courts, it was my understanding they can only bring a civil case.*

 

If they can build a case for themselves using civil legislation available to them, of course they can do, but they won't be able to use criminal law.

 

* - This is true of criminal law that I am aware of, however I don't know much about other laws enforced by the Police. Happy to be proved wrong ;)

 

Either way, it would not be appropriate in this case.

Please note I'm not insured in this capacity, so if you need to, do get official legal advice.

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If the car did or didn't have a SORN on it what legal right does NCP have to clamp, tow it, and then destroy it?

Around where I live, any car parked on a private or council car park while under SORN or with no tax are reported to DVLA and they go through their own legal process.

As far as I'm aware the police inforce the DVLA not companies like NCP.

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Now what about applying the OTHER test suggested in the Act?

 

 

 

[/color][/size]For instance "dishonestly". Could you prove, legally, that either DVLA or their agents acted dishonestly here?

 

Rather than theft, what about criminal damage?

 

Even if the car had been illegally on the road, the ECHR guarantees the right to a fair trial before any punishment is applied. It doesn't say 'apart from drivers of cars' in it anywhere. :mad:

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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Just to clear up the "private prosecution" question.

 

There is no such thing as a "private prosecution" in english law.

 

However, subject to a number of restrictions, anyone can start a criminal case, it's exactly the same as any other criminal case, except it is started by an individual instead of the CPS, who conducts cases on the behalf of the public interest, represented by the Crown

I personally have prosecuted cases in magistrates courts, with nearly a 100% success rate. :)

The 1 case that I had to withdraw, was because of cock-up by my local enviromental health officer, who got blasted by the Magistrate. And the defendant even had to pay his own 12k costs, and the Magistrate told him he was lucky to be getting off with that!

 

In this case you will get nowhere, you will not be able to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that it was a dishonest act, and not a mistake.

But thats only my personal opinion!

And opinions are like a**eholes, everyone has got one :D

I don't always believe what I say, I'm just playing Devils Advocate

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Rather than theft, what about criminal damage?

 

Even if the car had been illegally on the road, the ECHR guarantees the right to a fair trial before any punishment is applied. It doesn't say 'apart from drivers of cars' in it anywhere. :mad:

 

What gives you the impression that a punishment has been awarded?

 

In fact, there has been no punishment (punishments in UK law are imprisonment, fines, community service etc etc etc). The car was destroyed because DVLA stated (inaccurately) that the vehicle was unlicensed and in a position where it is not lawful to be unlicensed. It was destroyed to remove that situation from being. Noone has been accused of a crime, and noone has been punished for a crime. However the relevant laws grant DVLA the right to destroy unlicenced vehicles in certain situations.

 

This one was a huge mistake with awful impact on the owner; and the owner should be rightly compensated. But no criminal act has occurred. And before someone says "criminal negligence" this would only apply where a human being was injured.

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Just to clear up the "private prosecution" question.

 

There is no such thing as a "private prosecution" in english law.

 

However, subject to a number of restrictions, anyone can start a criminal case, it's exactly the same as any other criminal case, except it is started by an individual instead of the CPS, who conducts cases on the behalf of the public interest, represented by the Crown

I personally have prosecuted cases in magistrates courts, with nearly a 100% success rate. :)

The 1 case that I had to withdraw, was because of cock-up by my local enviromental health officer, who got blasted by the Magistrate. And the defendant even had to pay his own 12k costs, and the Magistrate told him he was lucky to be getting off with that!

 

In this case you will get nowhere, you will not be able to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that it was a dishonest act, and not a mistake.

But thats only my personal opinion!

And opinions are like a**eholes, everyone has got one :D

 

What sort of cases can be brought by an individual and under what circumstances would it occur that the CPS don't have enough evidence to prosecute but an individual does? Surely CPS prosecute all cases where they have sufficient evidence to convict an offender?

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Guest Bert52

The CPS can have enough evidence to prosecute but may still decide not to, for instance, 'if it was not in the public good to do so.'

 

There is, in fact, no duty whatsoever on the CPS to bring a prosecution even if they have evidence enough to do so.

 

As far as I am aware the ability to bring a 'private prosecution' exsists and is therefore obviously valid.

 

Eg The case of Michael Barrymore. The CPS decided not to prosecute yet the solicitor acting for the dead man's family decided to bring a 'private prosection.'

 

The charges included supply of drugs and assault. These are criminal acts and are not for a civil court to decide upon.

 

In the case of this thread I can't see any criminal act but a sure fire winner to be compensated which has already been offered.

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Anyone can start a criminal prosecution for almost anything. With the exception of offences where charges may only be brought by statutory authourised bodies, or persons.

For example, the Official Secrets Act 1989

has the provision in Sec 9(1) "no prosecution for an offence under this Act shall be instituted in England and Wales or in Northern Ireland except by or with the consent of the Attorney General...."

 

Many lot of offences, including many derived from common law, do not have such a restriction.

 

However, it should be remembered that the CPS have the power to take over ANY prosecution and discontinue it. As was the case, I believe, when Tony Blair was summoned for treason !:D

I don't always believe what I say, I'm just playing Devils Advocate

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This subject, bringing a 'private' prosecution, is actually quite interesting in this forum, as I have been reading these forums extensively to try and find something to go after the banks with. :)

 

Anyone who may have found anything I might have missed, please PM me the thread details.

 

Sorry for the hi-jack.

I don't always believe what I say, I'm just playing Devils Advocate

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There is no theft or criminal damage here. You will be unable to prove the necessary criminal intent.

 

Anyway, you really want to get the full value of the car plus any ancillary losses to which you have been put.

I imagine that this would include the remainder of the insurance and all the costs of obtaining the evidence as well as any expenses and time you have had to put into proving your case.

 

There may also be a sentimental loss.

 

It looks as if NCP is putting their hands up to it which is better than having to deal with Swansea.

 

I would suggest getting several valuations. the car club was a good suggestion from someone but also look around for actual ads and see what people are asking.

 

As for sentimental value, you should start putting together a file of your life with the car.

 

Did you take it to places on special occasions? Get the photos, make a diary of your ownership of the car.

Any work which you had done, list it all.

 

If you have had the car for a considerable time it will help.

 

I have had an MGB for about 25 yrs and converted it into a V8 efi. It would be easier to show a sentimental value for that than an ownership of only a few yrs.

 

Start dealing with NCP - and not with their insurers.

Your issue is with them. They will use their insurers to deflect you and to delay. their insurers will delay the matter too and they wil treat you with casual disregard.

 

At the end of the day, if you sue, it will be the NCP and it will be they who will have to deal with the court.

If you deal with NCP brusquely, they will put the pressure on the insurers for you., they will keep on complaining to the insurers that they are being threatened by you. the insurers will constantly remind you that you should deal with them and you just ignore then and deal directly with NCP.

 

It is only a matter of custom and practice that insurers deal with these things. You have to break this culture and control the complaint on your own terms.

 

Set yourself a timescale for a resolution of this matter once you have your valuations and you are sure of what you are claiming.

 

I suggest 4 weeks. No one needs longer than this if they are serious about undoing the harm which they have caused. Let them know at the outset that this is what you are giving them to resolve the matter and to settle on your terms. Make sure that they receive regular weekly reminders and threats from you and that they know that you are counting down to Good News Day.

 

However, before you start writing to them, start checking out the causes of action.

 

You could sue them for trespass or under the Torts (wrongful interference with goods) act.

 

I am also intrigued by the tort which Tom Brennan has found against the NatWest which is about causing intentional harm.

Ideally you want one which allows you to add a figure for exemplary damages.

Do you know the whole story? How did it happen? Was it really just an accident or did someone get carried away and misbehave. If you can show that this is what happened then some additional punitive damages may be on the cards.

 

It's a long time since I have looked at the Torts etc act. Get me a link and I'll try to have a refresher but it would be better of you checked it out for yourself. I won't have a lot of time to get very involved.

Make sure that you really are fully prepared and that you understand the whole process so that when their time runs out and you give them The Glad Tidings, it is all routine and you are confident and you don't hesitate.

I expect that they will only sit up and take notice then.

 

If you don't feel confident then don't start.

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this site is amazing. If you can't get excited and feel empowered by the energy of you all, I guess you must be in a coma.

 

You guys/ gals are truly amazing. I'm doing the whole bank charge thing as well now.

 

Update.

 

I have made contact with 3 Audi clubs. I am seeking as many valuations as I can. I have tried to find a replacement vehicle, since Decemeber I have only found one car like my one for sale and that was in Germany!

I tried to report my car stolen originally and some snotty desk officer stated that I couldn't as my car had been destroyed. I wrote to the Chief Constable, he investigated but I never obtained a crime number.

I am cautious of going down this Audiless road though as trying to prove a criminal law suit against a government body, I imagine, would be very hard and costly.

Does anyone out there know of anyone else that may have been through this experience before?

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You don't seem to have read very much of my post.

 

If you were obliged to import a car from germany then you would certainly be able to recover all of the costs of doing so including paperwork, transport and conversion to RHD

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In the case of this thread I can't see any criminal act but a sure fire winner to be compensated which has already been offered.

But were NCP working within the law?

I've had a chat with a fathers friend who is a council traffic warden and they can only report a car for no tax disc or believing it's under a SORN.

So were do a private company stand?

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In fact, there has been no punishment (punishments in UK law are imprisonment, fines, community service etc etc etc). The car was destroyed because DVLA stated (inaccurately) that the vehicle was unlicensed and in a position where it is not lawful to be unlicensed. It was destroyed to remove that situation from being. Noone has been accused of a crime, and noone has been punished for a crime. However the relevant laws grant DVLA the right to destroy unlicenced vehicles in certain situations.

 

That's certainly their explanation, but I find it totally unconvincing. You could make the same argument about any offence/punishment. It's really just a different way of describing a criminal offence.

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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Guest Bert52

There is no criminal element to this!

 

It was unfortunate and wrong but the only person affected is the owner of the car-not the public in general.

 

A civil action may succeed. This even isn't guaranteed as the DVLA has offered a compensation. It would be for a civil court to determine if the claimant should have accepted it rather than pursue an action.

 

Attempts should be made to resolve before taking an action.

 

You could possibly claim trespass of your properties, the destruction of it etc

 

Write back to the DVLA and demand a payment of £xxxx to settle or, within 14 days, you will instigate legal proceedings.

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The civil courts are absolutely red hot and are rarely wrong by the way.

 

Errrm... the civil courts DECIDE right and wrong and are therefore always right by definition. In a dispute the Court's word is the last one unless it can be shown that they were offered inaccurate or insufficient evidence; even THEN they were right within the information they had!

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The following is the letter I am sending to them.

 

Wording OK??

 

RE: Impounding of Vehicle K*** ***, an Audi, 2.8i Quattro V6

Dear Mr Barnes

Thank you for your response dated 19 April 2007 which I received via email.

It is a great relief to at last seek some closure on this matter and I thank you for admitting responsibility for the loss of my vehicle.

Your offer of compensation is greatly received, however, the amount in which you have offered is highly insufficient. Please understand how much this car meant to me and for how much sentimental value the car has with me.

Your figure of £380 is what I would regard as a scrap value for my car and not a true valuation. To obtain a true valuation for a car as old as mine, you cannot obtain one from a standard pricing guide.

The best way in which to value a car like mine is through an Audi club such as Club-Audi, UK.

They have written to me and given me a collectors valuation which is for £1500. This I would deem a much truer price for my car.

When you consider the length of time in which I have remained in “limbo” awaiting an outcome of your investigations, the amount of emails I have composed to NCP Car Parks and the DVLA, the number of phone calls to try and ascertain an outcome and the investigating that I had to carry out through land lords, land registry fees, letters to the Metropolitan Police Force and several other agencies such as Greenwich Borough Council. I feel that I am justified in seeking compensation for more than just the value of the vehicle which was, as you have acknowledged in your letter, in immaculate condition.

I am therefore seeking compensation to the sum of £2000.

This matter should not take too much more time to resolve so I am therefore giving you 14 days to compensate me or I will be seeking further legal council in taking NCP to court.

Regards

********

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