Is this a Deed of Assignment Notice????

[rory32]

Hi,

Thames Credit sent me what they say is a Deed of Assignment - I requested this from them along with a true copy of the original credit agreement and a statement of account.

To me what they have sent doesn't look like a legal document even though it is paper with a Morgan Stanlet header (although no address).

I'd appreciate any thoughts anyone has on this.

I've typed what they sent me below:

 

11th May 2006

 

Dear Customer (haven't actually addressed it to anyone or inserted my name)

 

We hereby give you notice of the assignment of the debt due to us in respect of the outstanding balance on your Morgan Stanley Bank International Ltd account. (which account - I have two)

 

On 28th April 2006 your account was sold to Aktiv Kapital First Investment Limited.

 

Thames Credit Limited is part of the same Group of Companies and is acting as Collection Agent on behalf of Aktiv Kapital First Investment Limited. (Is this legal with regards to the processing of my info by Thames?)

 

From this point in time, you should not attempt to contact Morgan Stanley about your account.

 

All further communications and payments must (in bold) be addressed to Thames Credit Limited quoting their reference number.

 

Thames Credit Limited

PO Box 444

Bromley

Kent

BR1 1ZB

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Morgan Stanley Bank International Ltd (has been signed but is definately computer generated)

[Fred Bassett]

Will somebody please clarify this for me. I have read a couple of posts relating to 'deeds of assignment'. What are they and what are the implications of a DCA not being able to provide me with a copy?

 

Also, is there anything else along these lines that I should be requesting from DCAs?

 

Thanks.

 

Fred

[Vampyra]

Hi Fred

 

I can't help with the deed because I have something very similar but am not convinced it's quite legit. However, you are going in the right direction. Have they sent you a copy of the credit agreement yet?

[Fred Bassett]

Hi Vampyra, the truth is I don't know, but I don't remember receiving this. Am I within my rights to ask for a copy? Also, do I have to send a payment as this is not an SAR (is it?)?

 

This intrigues me because these DCAs are so unprofessional that It wouldn't surprise me to find that their paperwork was not in order and I would have no hesitation in climbing through any loophole that was available to me.

 

I'm off now, and will not be able to log in again until tomorrow, but thanks for your help, it's much appreciated.

 

Fred.

[Vampyra]

OK

Asking for a copy of your credit agreement costs £1.00. Use the CCA template letter in the library here. What they should send you back is a copy of the original credit agreement. However, do not be fooled by things which look very similar to a credit agreement called "application forms". It is suggested you send a copy of the CCA letter with "I DO NOT ACCEPT ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY" at the top and it must be sent Special Delivery - expensive I know but it's actually more tracable than ordinary Recorded Delivery.

They then have 12 working days + 2 days, (for post), to come up with the Credit Agreement. If they do not the account is in default and if you have been paying anything towards it, you can now legally stop paying because the account is in dispute. Then they have 30 more days to comply with your request and if they fail to do so they are committing a criminal act. The debt becomes unenforcable until such time as they take you to Court to enforce it - but do you think they would really want to go before a Judge and have to admit they had committed a criminal act?

 

You can also SAR the original creditor - a bank or credit card or such - and obtain all of your account paperwork including personal notes staff members may have put on you account and any manual intervention by staff members. This costs £10 and they have 40 days to comply.

 

If you have more questions please ask, someone will always answer you in due course.

[rory32]

Fred send them something like this:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Ref No: xxxx

Account number: xxxxx

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

 

With reference to the above account, I request that you send me a true copy of this credit agreement before I will correspond further on this matter.

 

This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and I am entitled to receive a copy of my credit agreement on request.

 

Your obligation also extends to providing me with a statement of account. I enclose a £1 postal order, which represents payment of the statutory fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act. I understand that a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days from the date of this letter.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act, creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

Also, since you are a Debt Collection Agency, I would also ask that you supply a signed true copy of the executed deed of assignment for the above referenced agreement. This is an obligation, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

 

In summary, I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DEBT AND THEREFORE REQUIRE YOU TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS BY PROVIDING THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTATION BEFORE I CORRESPOND FURTHER :

 

1. True copy of original credit agreement

2. Statement of account

3. Copy of the executed deed of assignment from Morgan Stanley Bank International Ltd and Thames Credit Ltd. (change as appropriate)

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

 

Further to the above, please ensure that any contact by yourselves is made in writing only to the above address. Telephone calls and personal visits will not be accepted and viewed as harassment.

I look forward to hearing from you within the statutory time limit.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Mr Rory32

Hope that helps.

The deed of assignment is important as without it the debt collection are acting illegally in (1)chasing you for the debt and (2) processing your information. The original credit agreement is important because without this (please note it is not the application form you used to originally ask for credit) the debt is not enforceable. Finally asking for the statement of account should get round the £10 fee for the SAR - Thames say they have requested statements from Morg Stain in their response which contained the "alleged" Deed of Assignment Notice.

[rory32]

To get back on track - I don't believe that this is a legal Deed of Assignment as:

(1) it doesn't identify me - it could be addressed to anyone.

(2) It doesn't identify the account - it could be anyones account or both of the accounts I held with Morg Stain or just one of them.

(3) It's not actually signed, it's a cut and past job.

(4) It's not witnessed - correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly sure a Deed of Assignment has to be witnessed.

(5) Thames refer to it as a Deed of Assignment Notice rather than a Deed of Assignment. This possibly then isn't quite what I asked for (would Thames try such underhand tactics? surely not) as I specifically asked for a "Copy of the executed deed of assignment from Morgan Stanley Bank International Ltd and Thames Credit Ltd"

Any thoughts anyone........Rory

[rory32]

I was thinking of sending this letter back to Thames Credit which hopefully addresses the issues I have with them.

 

Thank you for you letter dated 13/04/07. You state in this that you have asked Morgan Stanley for a copy of the original application form.

However in my letter of 11th April 2007 I requested under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 that you send me a true copy of this credit agreement. I stated this on three separate occasions in this letter not once did I request a copy of the original application form.

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

 

I once again enclose a £1 postal order, which represents payment of the statutory fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act. I understand that a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days from the date of my previous letter (when the request was initially made).

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act, creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

 

In summary (once again), I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DEBT AND THEREFORE REQUIRE YOU TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS BY PROVIDING THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTATION BEFORE I CORRESPOND FURTHER :

 

1. True copy of original credit agreement

2. Statement of account

3. Copy of the executed deed of assignment from Morgan Stanley Bank International Ltd and Thames Credit Ltd.

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Also please note a asked you for a copy of the executed deed of assignment from Morgan Stanley Bank International Ltd and Thames Credit Ltd. Your issue of a copy of the Deed of Assignment Notice does not comply with this request on the following grounds:

• it is not addressed to me;
  
• it does not name me;
  
• it does not specify the actual account(s);
  
• it is not from anyone (no address);
  
• it is not signed by a representative of Morgan Stanley – it is a computer generated signature;
  
• it is not witnessed;
  
• I have not given Thames Credit Limited permission to process my personal information.

(7) I believe to be an offence under the Data Protection Act 1998.

Fair Processing Notice

As clearly stated on the Information Commissioner’s Office own website http://www.ico.gov.uk/ :

 

Q: What do I need to put in my fair processing notice, which is given to individuals before I process their information?

 

A:You will need to outline what and how information is going to be processed. This is to make sure the individual knows exactly what is going to happen to their information and how it is going to be used. You shouldn't be doing anything with personal information unless the individual is made aware.

 

Please supply me with The Fair Processing Notice, which you should have (and failed to) initially sent me.

Once again I will reiterate please supply me with a copy of the executed deed of assignment from Morgan Stanley Bank International Ltd and Thames Credit Ltd. If you do not understand what this entails and the consequences of non-compliance please seek legal advice.

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

 

Further to the above, please ensure that any contact by yourselves is made in writing only to the above address. Telephone calls and personal visits will not be accepted and viewed as harassment.

 

I look forward to hearing from you within the statutory time limit.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Mr Rory32

Any comments would be appreciated.......Rory

[PriorityOne]

To get back on track - I don't believe that this is a legal Deed of Assignment as:

(1) it doesn't identify me - it could be addressed to anyone.

(2) It doesn't identify the account - it could be anyones account or both of the accounts I held with Morg Stain or just one of them.

(3) It's not actually signed, it's a cut and past job.

(4) It's not witnessed - correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly sure a Deed of Assignment has to be witnessed.

(5) Thames refer to it as a Deed of Assignment Notice rather than a Deed of Assignment. This possibly then isn't quite what I asked for (would Thames try such underhand tactics? surely not) as I specifically asked for a "Copy of the executed deed of assignment from Morgan Stanley Bank International Ltd and Thames Credit Ltd"

 

Any thoughts anyone........Rory

 

 

It's very unlikely that you would be sent a true Deed of Assignment. This is because it normally covers a bulk purchase of debts from the same creditor and therefore, would also contain details of other borrowers and their account numbers, etc. A DCA would be breaching The Data Protection Act if they sent this doc. out on request.... so I'm not sure what they've sent you... but it looks pretty pointless to me. It's probably an attempt to intimidate you into believing that they have some kind of legal authority on your account.

 

[dannyboy660]

I think the whole Deed of Assignment thing is a bit of a red herring. Deed of Assignment is the document you sign during insolvency proceedings legally 'gifting' your belongings (money) to the appointed Trustee. deed of assignment definition to satisfy your creditors.

 

If you take the definition provided here Deed of Assignment then it would imply the Deed of Assignment would apply to the bulk purchase of a portfolio of accounts, rather than have any legal implication to an individual, and yes, it appears it does have to be witnessed.

 

When an outside party 'purchases' a portfolio of probably thousands of accounts in bulk they have already been charged off, and the Deed of Assignment is the OC 'gifting' the debts to the purchaser.

 

I'm of the opinion by requesting copies of CCA's and/or Deeds of Assignment from the Purchaser, you are actually providing them with the ammunition they need to nail you, by forcing them to produce the legal documentation necessary for a judgment and making it personal to you as an individual. Purchasers dream.

 

By refusing to co-operate on the grounds you do not have an account with them, and that your signature on CCA'74 allows for collection by a third party on behalf of the original creditor, you are invoking Caveat Emptor. They can only pursue once they have acknowledgment or payment, and if you take the court option from day one contesting the amount owed and the legal right to collect said amount, it would be interesting to see if they have the stomach for a fight they probably can't win.

 

That's me thinking out loud again.

 

Ah....just saw your letter as I was about to post...looks good to me!! Makes my post a bit irrelevant now but as it took me quite a time to type I'll post it anyway!!!.

 

All the best

[rory32]

Thanks for that - it confirms what I was thinking. Although I don't see why they couldn't send my a legally binding Deed of Assignment with all the irrelevant info ( i.e. other accounts) blanked out. I can't see how this would breech the Act.

But then maybe they don't have this.

[PriorityOne]

Maybe they don't, but no-one has taken a DCA all the way to court on that assumption yet... to my knowledge anyway.

[rory32]

Yes they have - read this (towards the bottom of the page)

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/cabot/36665-cabot-again-urgent-help-14.html

[PriorityOne]

Yes they have - read this (towards the bottom of the page)

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/cabot/36665-cabot-again-urgent-help-14.html

 

 

That's a very long and complex thread Rory... and involves many issues..... not just the Deed of Assignment. The point I was making was that.... where an individual has been paying a DCA for X amount of time and then realises that the DCA has no Agreement, no-one (to my knowledge) has taken a DCA to court and successfuly claimed a refund on the basis that a DCA would fail to produce the Deed of Asignment in court. A Deed of Assignment proves the existence of a debt ... even though it may be unenforceable without an Agreement.

[rory32]

Completely take your point. However I'm going to send Thames my letter and see what their reply is. I'm not really wanting to take them to court (other than to remove the charges on the account and remove any defaults).

[Fred Bassett]

Thanks for that Vampyra. I think I'll apply for these CCAs just for the hell of it. Nothing may come of it whatsoever, but I have a gut feeling. I've had the misfortune to have to deal with Blair Oliver and Scott and Credit Solutions, both organisations being staffed with people well down the evolutionary scale in my opinion.

 

I've got nothing to lose except a few quid and will be worth that just to wind them up a bit. After that, who knows?

 

One other question on a similar subject. I'm convinced that Lloyds TSB started charging me for credit card cover that I didn't sign up for. Will a CCA request cover this?

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

Fred

[rory32]

Fred,

you need to send them a SAR for this not a CCA request.