Philips Bailiffs

[chrismc]

The difference between what I used to do and what bailiffs do is that I almost always left a household with a 'thankyou' from the householder. A debt that had been worrying them was suddenly down to a few affordable quid a month, with no charges, no added interest and no threats. It was a very ethical way in which to collect outstanding debts and one which local councils should seriously look into when they are finally forced through public pressure to ditch the bailiffs.

 

Bailiff companies are usually run by ignorant money-grabbing shysters who in the main use cheap self-employed ill-educated reprobates to collect for them. These idiots thrive on the easy targets. One once had a friend of my wife in tears during a call. She called me before letting him in and I arranged to meet the guy an hour later at the house, saying I would bring some cash for him. Let's just say that I explained to him the error of his ways and he never called back. Complaints were issued to his company, to the Council and to the Court, the arrears were taken back on by the Council immediately at the original amount and everyone was happy, apart from the bailiff.

 

What these bailiffs have done to you is disgraceful, take them for every penny you can and make sure that your councillor, your MP, your local paper and everyone else knows exactly how they have abused their position.

 

In particular complain to your local court, it is they who approve the certificates that bailiffs have to have by law in order to enforce in your district. Enough complaints = cancellation of or a refusal to renew the certificate.

 

It is good to hear some Debt Collectors/Bailiffs have a conscience! thanks for the advice.

 

So are you saying they need a licence/certificate from each district/local authority before they are allowed to work an area, or do they get a licence/certificate that covers the whole country?

 

Chris

[elsinore]

It is good to hear some Debt Collectors/Bailiffs have a conscience! thanks for the advice.

 

So are you saying they need a licence/certificate from each district/local authority before they are allowed to work an area, or do they get a licence/certificate that covers the whole country?

 

Chris

 

I think this answers your question, Chris.

 

"If you wish to complain about a certificated bailiff because you do not think he/she is fit to hold a certificate, you need to contact the county court which issued the certificate.

 

If you are unsure whether the bailiff holds a certificate you can contact the Court Manager at your local county court and provide him/her with the bailiff's name. The Court Manager will contact the Court Service Headquarters and ask for a search of the bailiff register. If the bailiff's name appears on the register, it means that he/she holds a certificate.

 

If you are unsure which county court issued the certificate you can contact the Court Service Headquarters on 0171-210 1883 who will find this information for you.

 

· You should set out your complaint on the bailiff complaints form which can be obtained from any county court and post it to the Court Manager of the court where the bailiff's certificate was issued."

 

It's taken from here: http://www.dca.gov.uk/consult/bailiff/bannd2fr.htm

 

martonman's post is excellent.

 

We seem to be steadily building up a case whereby every local authority should be reviewing their policy concerning collection of council tax and parking fines.

 

Perhaps the chief financial executives of every tax collecting council in the country should be persuaded to read some of these stories and be made aware of the opprobrium attaching to them as a result of their indifference.

 

Onwards and upwards

 

Elsinore

[chrismc]

Hi Elsinore

 

Yes we are slowly getting so much good information here to allow us to fight them on a number of fronts. First I am going after my money, the ball is in their court at the moment, if they don't provide me with what I have asked for in the time limit, then letters and complaints will be getting sent off all over the place.

 

Once I get a full refund then I will start looking at helping others by making authorities etc aware what is actually going on, this is all good stuff.

 

BTW have you seen the post by Seylectric on the Blackpool BC PCN cases today, looks like they are in BIG trouble and so may be Bailiffs acting on their behalf!

 

I have seen the DCA site in fact that is where I got the information from for some of my last letter to the council, buit thanks anyway.

 

Chris

[martonman]

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful gift.

 

Maybe we can all learn something from chrismc's experience with the bailiffs.

 

chrismc's innocent mistake was to enter into any negotiation with the baillif, it's like the old transylvanian folklore tale about inviting a vampire into your home. Once a vampire enters with your consent, he'll suck all your blood until you are dry.

 

Refuse to recognise or enter into any negotiation with any bailiff sent to collect council tax or PCN's. Do not let them in, do not sign anything and never ever give them any money. This renders them practically impotent. All they can do is pass your file back to the Council, which is exactly what you want!

 

Always contact the council and in the case of council tax, start paying the arrears. Force them to take payment, as stated before the automated systems are an easy way in to do this.

[chrismc]

Thanks once again guys for some great insider knowledge!!

[martonman]

I think that all bailiffs should be forced by the regulator to present householders with a leaflet explaining what they are and are not allowed to do by law - with EVERY communication they send.

 

That would be hilarious as it would contradict almost everything that comes out of their mouths!

 

It should also have full details on how to complain about bailiff behaviour.

 

Government regulations concerning bailiffs are currently a joke. Maybe between us we can formulate a letter that everyone can send to their local councillor and their local MP. Any ideas?

 

BTW there's a petition on a website here http://stopthebailiffbullyboythugculture.piczo.com/

 

the title is pretty self-explanatory!

[chrismc]

I received a few bits of paperwork today, they are pathetic this lot, or maybe they just don't keep proper records on purpose?? still loads missing but what they did send was supposedly a statement of payments I had made, their fees etc none of which bear any resemblance to what I have actually paid and what they have charged in fees and other amounts they conveniently seem to have lost somewhere.

 

After checking through all the figures this evening, I now come up with the following which I believe to be correct, based on receipts, bank statements etc I have and some amounts they say I have paid:-

 

Original Debt £1604.36 paid in full

Amount Actually Paid to Bailiffs £2658.31

 

Overpayment therefore £1053.95

 

It is hard to make sense of their figures as they seem to have ignored some payments completely that I have made to them, but can be reconciled with bank statements etc and their case notes which do not match their statements , it looks to me from what they have supplied that they have massaged their own fees so as not to look too bad??? eg if Local Authority were to see them?? maybe because I made out I sent copies of letters to LA. It would be interesting to know what figures they have actually supplied to the LA.

 

They have totally ignored and not listed £536.78 which does not show up in their statements anywhere?

 

So unless anyone has any comments to the contrary, I think I will be putting together a claim this weekend.

 

Chris

[elsinore]

 

So unless anyone has any comments to the contrary, I think I will be putting together a claim this weekend.

 

Chris

 

Hi chris, it's looking good isn't it?

 

By 'claim' I presume that you mean a County Court claim on Philips for the return of unlawful charges?

 

Elsinore

[chrismc]

Hi chris, it's looking good isn't it?

 

By 'claim' I presume that you mean a County Court claim on Philips for the return of unlawful charges?

 

Elsinore

 

No sorry Elsinore, I mean send a preliminary approach letter first, then see what happens, no doubt they will come up with all sorts of balony to try and explain why they charge what they do, or try and say I have not paid what I say I have or whatever, but I think I have more information than they do, from what they have sent to me so far, or maybe they don't want to send me anything that may inciminate them?? hard to say really, one things for sure I don't trust them as far as I could throw them, so step by step and leave no stone unturned, don't want to give them an opportunity to wriggle out of this.

 

Chris

[elsinore]

Right, I see, you're giving them an opportunity to dig their own grave, aren't you, you naughty thing!!!!!!!

 

Elsinore

[chrismc]

Right, I see, you're giving them an opportunity to dig their own grave, aren't you, you naughty thing!!!!!!!

 

Elsinore

 

I also want to make sure I do things right in case I have to go to the Local Authority to spill the beans if necessary!!

[martonman]

Have a heart for the poor bailiffs...

 

They're 'forced' to take on these debts by the councils for free, therefore they can't afford to pay wages to collectors, they have to 'employ' them on a commission only basis.

 

To make ends meet they have no choice but to invent extra charges for the likes of us to pay.

 

And its not fair for a poor collector to drive miles in a car (sorry, van) to be faced with an awkward householder who has the cheek to know his/her rights.

 

Shame on you for questioning them!

[chrismc]

Have a heart for the poor bailiffs...

 

They're 'forced' to take on these debts by the councils for free, therefore they can't afford to pay wages to collectors, they have to 'employ' them on a commission only basis.

 

To make ends meet they have no choice but to invent extra charges for the likes of us to pay.

 

And its not fair for a poor collector to drive miles in a car (sorry, van) to be faced with an awkward householder who has the cheek to know his/her rights.

 

Shame on you for questioning them!

 

:)Nice one Martonman.......Do you think I am being a bit harsh on them maybe I will forget it all and make a donation to their Christmas Party instead!! what do you think? I've got a tear in my eye now thinking of the poor little souls

[chrismc]

I now have a good idea of how much to claim back from these, I cannot use the standard preliminary approach letter as it applies to unlawful bank and finance charges, so does anyone have a standard letter they have used to ask for charges etc back from non finance organisations. eg Bailiffs, etc if not I will draft something myself, but thought there may be one knocking around somewhere that could be adapted.

 

Thanks

Chris

[stuffed by the vat man]

I suggest that you actually now write to the local authority. Explain that you have queried the fees with the bailiff company and they have not provided a satisfactory answer to your querie of a specific breakdown of the fees charged. The local authority will then do your work for you but as a valued client, the bailiff company will have no choice but to answer their querie. Councils get very scared about this sort of thing. Write to the local authority.

[stuffed by the vat man]

remember, i am a bailiff !

[chrismc]

I suggest that you actually now write to the local authority. Explain that you have queried the fees with the bailiff company and they have not provided a satisfactory answer to your querie of a specific breakdown of the fees charged. The local authority will then do your work for you but as a valued client, the bailiff company will have no choice but to answer their querie. Councils get very scared about this sort of thing. Write to the local authority.

Thanks S-B-T-V-M I am considering my letter wording to Philips asking for the fees back, I am gathering legal info etc at the moment from various places, but you are probably right about writing direct to the council also, I may write a letter to Philips and copy all to council and also write directly to the Council explaining why I am taking this action.

 

I could also point out to the council that from the information I have been supplied by Philips their fees look to have been massaged to reflect what looks reasonable and possibly legitimate, maybe to make the council think that Philips are working within guidelines, but in actual fact mean nothing as what they have written on documentation they have left with me and what they have charged me and I have paid in full are much more than what they are entitled to charge.

 

I will consider my options and put together some letters this weekend I think!!

 

Chris

[elsinore]

Chris, if you haven't already done do, have a look at this

 

http://www.dca.gov.uk/consult/bailiff/bannd2fr.htm

 

which tells you how to complain about certificated bailiffs. I especially like the bit about the judge cancelling the bailiffs certificate!!

 

Good luck and keep us posted

 

Elsinore

[chrismc]

Chris, if you haven't already done do, have a look at this

 

http://www.dca.gov.uk/consult/bailiff/bannd2fr.htm

 

which tells you how to complain about certificated bailiffs. I especially like the bit about the judge cancelling the bailiffs certificate!!

 

Good luck and keep us posted

 

Elsinore

 

Thanks Elsinore.

 

I have read most of that site already but you are right, it is interesting what can happen to a Certified Bailiff if you complain and the Judge backs you up. He can also award compensation?

 

Chris

[dolly]

Just a quickie as I know their will be people on here who can answer this without me having to trawl t'internet.

 

Are bailiffs allowed to knock on your neighbours door to ascertain if you live at the property?

 

Thanks

[chrismc]

Just a quickie as I know their will be people on here who can answer this without me having to trawl t'internet.

 

Are bailiffs allowed to knock on your neighbours door to ascertain if you live at the property?

 

Thanks

Here you are Dolly

 

Enforcement agents should, so far as it is practical, avoid disclosing the purpose of their visit to anyone other than the debtor. Where the debtor is not seen, the relevant documents must be left at the address in a sealed envelope addressed to the debtor.

 

So they could and probably would knock on a neighbours door, and some would no doubt tell the neighbour exactly why they want you, because they expect you not to know your rights. But they could get done for it, if you could prove it!! and you complained to the courts etc.

 

Here is more infoprmation which may help you. Department for Constitutional Affairs

 

Chris

[dolly]

Thanks.

 

This goes back to an old account I did a DPA request on (I actually got one sheet of phone calls / visit logs) and on it it says 'Knocked on neighbours door who informed me that Mr & Mrs. did live there". I was just interested, that was all.

[chrismc]

This is my first draft of a Preliminary Approach letter requesting payment of all charges and fees from Philips Bailiffs, please make any comments etc, I plan on sending this or an amended version on Monday and also a copy to the Council with a further letter explaining why I have started these actions.

 

Do you think I have gone over the top or missed things that should be in there??

 

RECORDED DELIVERY

 

Philips Bailiffs & Civil Enforcement Agents

Telford House

Garden Street

Darlington

Co Durham

DL1 1QP

 

23rd June 2006

 

Account No’s 3xxxxxx, 3xxxxxx, 3xxxxxx

Dear Sirs,

 

Re: Request for Repayment of Charges and Fees

 

My request

I am writing to ask you to refund to me the charges which you have levied on the above accounts.

 

 

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to the above accounts in relation to visits, van fees, walking possession fees and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your true costs.

 

Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se and not in accordance with fees set down nor compliant with the National Standards for Enforcement Agents 2002 as issued by The Lord Chancellor's Department and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

 

 

May I also point out it is a duty under the above National Standards that Enforcement agents will on each and every occasion when a visit is made to a debtor's property which incurs a fee for the debtor, leave a notice detailing the fees charged to date, including the one for that visit, and the fees which will be incurred if further action becomes necessary to which you have again not complied.

 

It clearly states under the National Standards for Enforcement Agents 2002 that fees should be reasonable and not disproportionate to the size of the debt, however, in this case the fees levied on the above accounts are totally disproportionate to the original debt and this I have proven and itemised later.

 

I also refer you to the June 2000 Report by Professor J. Beatson QC produced for the Lord Chancellor, in which he states that under the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights (ECHR) and the Human Rights Act of 1998 that came into force on 2nd October 2000 that because of a relatively broad discretion that can be exercised in the administrations of most forms of distress, it may make it’s exercise vulnerable to a challenge based on lack of proportionality, moreover the regime may also be vulnerable to a challenge based on it’s lack of “lawfulness”

 

Your responsibilities

The following conditions as specified under the National Standards for Enforcement Agents 2002

• Enforcement agencies must keep a complete record of all financial transactions in whatever capacity undertaken.

• Enforcement agents will on each and every occasion when a visit is made to a debtor's property which incurs a fee for the debtor, leave a notice detailing the fees charged to date, including the one for that visit, and the fees which will be incurred if further action becomes necessary. If a written request is made an itemised account of fees will be provided.

I can also add, it is a Statutory and Financial requirement for Enforcement Agencies to keep a complete record of all financial transactions in whatever capacity undertaken.

 

I have requested twice from you now by Recorded Delivery letters full disclosure and breakdowns of all your fees, and documentation and paperwork in relation to the above accounts in compliance with S7 of the Data Protection Act, to which you have provided only supplementary information and certainly in no way have discharged your responsibilities fully under the above Act.

 

I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them.

Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

 

What I require

I calculate that you have overcharged £1053.95 in fees and charges on an original debt of £1604.36 which has been paid in full.

 

I enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter.

 

My targets to resolve this matter

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

 

After that, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline and in addition make a full complaint to the Association of Civil Enforcement Agencies and/or the Certificated Bailiffs Association and also set out my complaint on the bailiff complaints form which will be presented to the relevant County Court to which supplied your Bailiffs Certificate.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxx

 

cc.

Managing Directors Office

Wxxxxxxx Bxxxx Cxxxxxxxx

 

 

I have also drawn up a schedule of charges which will be sent with the final letter.

 

Chris

[elsinore]

Light the blue touch paper!!

 

Ten out of ten, Chris.

 

Elsinore

[thewifeandI]

Way to go, Chris!

(I wish I knew what that meant - another meaningless merkinism!)