The issues raised by Llloyds bank defences and claiming beyond 6 yrs

[photoman]

Pen,

IMHO, I'm sorry to say that I think you don't have much of a case?

 

Just as they cannot prove that the charges were not taken, then equally so you have no actual evidence that they actually were.... other than circumstantial evidence or speculation.

Such a case would go fast track, so what would you then provide when the court orders disclosure, and asks for your bundle of evidence ?

Perhaps you may be able to get evidence by reverse? Anyone that you can recall having problems paying? Utilities companies, Mortgage co or a landlord, Student loans co, Credit Card direct debits, anything ??

Other than that, I would suggest you just keep on at the Data Controller, and now use the courts for as much info as you can get.

[Pen]

Hmmmm, it is sad good points raised PM, but (there's that but again). as meagain has pointed out some members have managed to estimate their chargers and this can only be done without the evidance of bank statements to support it. otherwise I have know idea what members are talking about when the estimate the chargers. Has anyone ever reclaimed their chargers on a estimation ?

 

Meagain, do you know of any members who have reclaimed the chargers using your estermation theroy.

 

Oh how I dislike this Bank. I am sure thats why they won't return all our data, it really is in their interests to plead destroying it.

 

nice thought whilst it lasted.

 

Pen,

[mumof4by1996]

Interesting poits made, but when i asked lloyds for my 6 yers statements they only sent me 5.5years and at the bottom of the page they said that if i wanted any pre sept 2001 i could reply in the prepaid envelope and they would order them for me howevedr i sent this letter back requesting the rest of my statements, and am awaiting reply ,will keep you posted as to what happens , because if they send me pre 6 years it shoots their letter into pieces and then it can be said that they are unreliable and are again concealing.

[mumof4by1996]

Has anyone actually won a case against lloyds, using the concealment argument, and had the limitations removed from them yet?

[photoman]

Has anyone actually won a case against lloyds, using the concealment argument, and had the limitations removed from them yet?

 

Not lloyds, but a 13 year claim.

I'm sure there are lloyds cases also, look in the lloyds successes forum.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/33005-bong-hsbc-contractual-interest.html

 

Pm

[meagain]

Just as they cannot prove that the charges were not taken, then equally so you have no actual evidence that they actually were.... other than circumstantial evidence or speculation.

 

Lloyds are lying if they say they don't hold info beyond 6 years, since we know for a fact that they do (by virtue of many other cases - I personally have received statements from 1999). There is actual evidence, it's just that the bank is refusing to provide it. If this is made clear in the particulars of claim, it reinforces the "concealment" WRT Limitations Act and also puts the bank in the frame for obstruction, which shifts the burden of evidence squarely onto them. It's the same principle as overdraft interest - you can't accurately calculate how much interest you have paid in excess, so you put forward your best guess, and it's then for the bank to provide a better figure. In this case, the bank knows how much is has taken from you for some period over the 6 years, and is refusing to tell you, therefore you took your best guess and it is strictly for the bank to cough up the actual figure.

 

Of course, at £27k you are looking at multi-track. Getting it on the small claims track is not going to happen, but since the points of law you are arguing are simple you can always try asking them nicely to drop it down to fast track. You're also looking at fees of well over £250. This is something which needs some careful thought (this area is something which needs coverage in the Library).

 

In summary, my thoughts are that lack of evidence may be a problem, but evidence being deliberately withheld is certainly not.

[photoman]

I agree with all that Lloyds are almost certainly withholding evidence in the form of statements etc, but short of actually walking into their data vaults with an Information Commissioner Officer and a team of Baillifs, it is very difficult to get them to actually hand all this over.

IMHO, an estimated claim is very difficult as there is a burden of proof upon the claimant to provide substance to the claim, especially once an exchange of evidence is requested by the court.

It would probably not even get this far though, as the Banks would request from the outset, that the estimated portion of any claim be dismissed, and it would be very difficult to counter this.

I think pushing for Data Protection Act SAR compliance through the courts, and seeking damages for non compliance is possibly the only route. Damages would be at the courts discretion, but one could request that the court consider the fact that the Banks willful destruction or retention of such data has prevented you from exercising your rights to reclaim money they have unlawfully taken.

[iwant my money back]

hello,i got all my statements off the internet has i do online banking worked all my figures out ie,without interest and with interest using the online calculator, sent my request asking for charges to be repaid, recieved a letter from lloyds on the 13th day stating sorry to hear about my complaint!it wasm't a complaint it was a request. they needed 4-8 weeks to investigate.(don't think so) on the 14th day i wrote again telling them my intentions was to take them to court if i didn't get response within 14 days, today 23rd april 2007 the 14 days are up what is my next step????????? please help:!:

[Pen]

Hi PM

Just a few points.

 

I think pushing for Data Protection Act SAR compliance through the courts, and seeking damages for non compliance is possibly the only route. Damages would be at the courts discretion, but one could request that the court consider the fact that the Banks willful destruction or retention of such data has prevented you from exercising your rights to reclaim money they have unlawfully taken.

 

Case is being heard in the small claims track and i would only expect the court to award a small amount maybe less the £100 by the looks of other claims on this site

 

after being awarded judgment for none compliance against Lloyd's, which demonstrates I have done everything in my power to get my bank statements post and pre 6 yrs.

 

I should not have had to go this far. lloyds should have complyied from the off.

 

Bearing in mind the banks have informed me in a letter that they have not retained any information on our joint account post 6 yrs. So even if the judge orders them to comply if they have not got them as they say they will be unable to comply with the court.

 

After sending me a letter stating they no longer have my records I cannot see them admiting any different in court as this would show very clearly that they have been concealing the information from me. therefor £100.00 in damagers is not going to compensated for all the chargers they have taken from me over the last 30 yrs. that would be unfair.But I do see your point

 

Bankfodder, have you any thoughts on away around this issue.

 

Pen

[photoman]

Hi PM

Just a few points.

 

I think pushing for Data Protection Act SAR compliance through the courts, and seeking damages for non compliance is possibly the only route. Damages would be at the courts discretion, but one could request that the court consider the fact that the Banks willful destruction or retention of such data has prevented you from exercising your rights to reclaim money they have unlawfully taken.

 

Case is being heard in the small claims track and i would only expect the court to award a small amount maybe less the £100 by the looks of other claims on this site

 

after being awarded judgment for none compliance against Lloyd's, which demonstrates I have done everything in my power to get my bank statements post and pre 6 yrs.

 

I should not have had to go this far. lloyds should have complyied from the off.

 

Bearing in mind the banks have informed me in a letter that they have not retained any information on our joint account post 6 yrs. So even if the judge orders them to comply if they have not got them as they say they will be unable to comply with the court.

 

After sending me a letter stating they no longer have my records I cannot see them admiting any different in court as this would show very clearly that they have been concealing the information from me. therefor £100.00 in damagers is not going to compensated for all the chargers they have taken from me over the last 30 yrs. that would be unfair.But I do see your point

 

Bankfodder, have you any thoughts on away around this issue.

 

Pen

 

Pen,

I am talking about taking a seperate distinct action, for SAR non compliance in relation to all the data they have failed to provide.

You cite that the failure to provide (or destruction) of the data, has prevented you from taking your rightful actions to recover what they unlawfully took. You claim for damages upon the premise that their actions have been tantamount to a deliberate obstruction of your rights. Damages should be assessed upon what you could have reclaimed had the data been provided.

[BARTY]

hello,i got all my statements off the internet has i do online banking worked all my figures out ie,without interest and with interest using the online calculator, sent my request asking for charges to be repaid, recieved a letter from lloyds on the 13th day stating sorry to hear about my complaint!it wasm't a complaint it was a request. they needed 4-8 weeks to investigate.(don't think so) on the 14th day i wrote again telling them my intentions was to take them to court if i didn't get response within 14 days, today 23rd april 2007 the 14 days are up what is my next step????????? please help:!:

 

Hi

If you have send both the Prelim and Letter Before Action it is now Court claim time. If you start up a thread of your own, you can ask any questions on there.

good luck!

Barty:)

[Pen]

Hi Pm,

Am sorry I am really no good at all this legal stuff, but I am very interested in what you are saying. my hearing in June is a disposal Hearing in the small claims track. I think at that hearing I am not allowed to give any oral evidence but if I was to write something it would have to be served on Lloyd's 3 days before the hearing. Right, so how would I go about claiming damagers if they have destroyed my data.

 

would I have to 1) wait until the court hearing, find out for sure that my data has been destroyed

2) then make a separate claim through the courts for a "separate distinct action,"

3) or do I write something to Lloyd's 3 days before the hearing citing as you say " that they failure to provide (or destruction) of the data, has prevented you from taking your rightful actions to recover what they unlawfully took" then use this as evidence in court.

 

I just don't know what is the best way to go about this, like you said if they do fail to supply me with all my data, then I have lost out big time. and I would hate that with Lloyd's as they are a dreadful bank and it's our money the took.

 

But, if there is something in Law which means I have no chance of winning against then should i just save my energy, attend court in June and except what the judge says and his award no matter how small it is.

 

this is a bit more complected then just claiming bank chargers, but like bank chargers if I though I stood a good chance of getting any of my money back pre 6 yrs then I would go for it. I just don't know if I do have a good chance. thats the problem.

 

What do others think. If one person can win this against the banks then I am sure it would open the floodgates for all the other members who could not get there SAR or statements post 6 yrs so if i can not do it because the banks will not provide me with the details, how will I and others like me reclaim what is rightfully ours in the first place.

 

Thanks for your help PM. I wish Bankfodder would post and tell us what we are suppose to do when all else fails.

 

A single finding against Lloyds will definitively remove the limitation period. we need a bit more if we are going to do this.

 

Pen

[Guest bong]

It would help if we could get evidence from other users who have received more than 6 years. no such luck yet though.

 

Still waiting to hear back from WhatMoney? who got statements from Lloyds back to '97.

[Pen]

Bong, do we need it, if the Law states that the banks should not destroy DPI. the fact they they have writtern stating they have done it, is that not enough to prove consealment and couild we not all sue them for post 6 yrs without statements because of this. I read my loan agreement the other day and a section under Your Personal Data and Lloyds TSB states.

 

"If you ask we will tell you what information we hold about you and provide a copy in line with the Data Protection Act ( A fee is Payable)" it does not say within a 6 yr period

Lloyds have failed to do this and it is writtern down in all of their terms and conditions if they do not comply with what they have writtern on the contracts does that make them nul & viod.

 

I don't know about you lot but all this has given me a head ach, so I am going to stand down for a while.

 

Good Luck everyone. I will keep you posted on what happends in court.

 

Pen

 

 

 

Pen

[Determined damsel]

I am in the same situation. Have followed the instructions for setting out my original letter, with dates of charges for the past 5 years (I have kept paper statements for 3 and have gone on-line to search internet bank link for additional 2) and have added interest. I have also received the same letter that you refer to above, from LLoyds TSB. I found it confusing that they referred to credit card charges, when I don't own a credit card. Will be trying to find the next steps amongst the information on this web site.

Keep in touch and hopefully we can achieve some success.

[Guest bong]

Pen, I'm not the expert on this DPA stuff but I think the situation is that there is no law about how long companies have to keep records. I think most companies (not talking of banks here) retain them for six for no other reason than the fact that they believe if a claim has not arisen against them after six years it is statute barred and they are pretty safe to destroy the records.

 

where there has been deliberate concealment and unlawful practices however, and they have destroyed data older than 6 years, my own feeling (not based on any legal knowledge) is that there is a case for showing that with "reasonable diligence" they could have anticipated claims and the destruction of data should lead to them being liable to pay damages - based on estimates calculated on later years of charges, and using known charging information pertaining to those periods.

 

I'm not saying it would be a safe claim to make though, it is ground that hasn't been tested yet, as far as I know.

[arrogantvenus]

Hello everyone...after much dilly dallying I calculated my charges with lloyds £1445 its ridiculous, I have sent off the letter requesting a payback on the 9th of april and they sent me a letter dated the 19th april telling me the "charges were to cover extra work" and "customers are informed" blah blah blah; and the lousy people sent me another today dated 16th of april giving me a complaint number.

[meagain]

Pen, I'm not the expert on this Data Protection Act stuff but I think the situation is that there is no law about how long companies have to keep records. I think most companies (not talking of banks here) retain them for six for no other reason than the fact that they believe if a claim has not arisen against them after six years it is statute barred and they are pretty safe to destroy the records.

 

As far as I am aware, it is a legal requirement that information on individual financial transactions is retained for a minimum of 6 years.

 

where there has been deliberate concealment and unlawful practices however, and they have destroyed data older than 6 years

 

If the information has been destroyed as a matter of course, there is no concealment. There is no real reason for them to retain the information beyond the 6 years required by law. Concealment of evidence only really comes into play if they have not destroyed the data, yet refuse to provide it on request.

[elsinore]

As far as I am aware, it is a legal requirement that information on individual financial transactions is retained for a minimum of 6 years.

quote]

 

I posted this some time ago on another thread

 

The most widely accepted reference for commercial document retention is The ICSA Guide to Document Retention published by the Institute of Chartered Secretaries and Administrators. I imagine that this publication should be taking up space in the bookcase of any Data Protection Manager worth his salt.. It costs £30 :o Anyone got a copy?

 

Below is an extract from a typical guideline for agreements.

 

Document retention guidelines

Document

Period of Retention

Comments

Agreements and related correspondence

 

Major agreements of historical significance

Permanently

 

Contracts with customers,

suppliers or agents

Licensing agreements

Rental/hire purchase agreements

Indemnities and guarantees

Other agreements/contracts

Six years after expiry or termination of the contract

Six years is generally the time limit within which proceedings founded on a contract may be brought[2]

If the contract is executed as a deed, the limitation period is twelve years

Actions for latent damage may be brought up to fifteen years after the damage occurs

 

[2] Section 5 Limitation Act 1980.

 

But, as Glenn says, there seems to be no evidence of legislation (other than Companies Act and Data Protection Act).

 

Custom and Practise in a specific industry will dictate.

 

Interesting though that, in this example, the Limitation Act is cited as the reason for retention.

Els

[meagain]

I hold no envy of anyone who has had to pick through all 1300 sections (plus appendices) of the Companies Act to establish that. :o

[Pen]

Ok, slept on this last night and came to the conclushion that since i have just had all my court fees refunded due to not having to pay them in the first place, I should just go for the kill so to speak and try to make this claime someone is going to have to do it at some point otherwise we will never know. but before I send my prelim letter what is the most it would cost me if i lost in chargers by the other side.

 

I have not added interest to the above amount i could go for the 8% or all the way for the CI either way the bank is going to defend the case somehow i think just the 8% the ci would bring it in to the 60k ball park in not more but that would be one to get our teeth into.

 

anyone any ideas on how much i would stand to lose if i lost. I did read a case relating to a mortage where the bloke had to pay £5,000 plus, in solicitors fees.

 

Pen

[Guest bong]

where there has been deliberate concealment and unlawful practices however, and they have destroyed data older than 6 years, my own feeling (not based on any legal knowledge) is that there is a case for showing that with "reasonable diligence" they could have anticipated claims and the destruction of data should lead to them being liable to pay damages

 

If the information has been destroyed as a matter of course, there is no concealment. There is no real reason for them to retain the information beyond the 6 years required by law. Concealment of evidence only really comes into play if they have not destroyed the data, yet refuse to provide it on request.

 

when I spoke of concealment I meant their concealment of the facts i.e. that the charges levied are not a reflection of their true costs - not concealment as in the destruction of records.

[Guest bong]

Pen,

 

I think if you're going to proceed with an estimated claim you should do some homework first to find out what Lloyds were charging customers throughout the period in question. It is unlikely that they were charging £30 25 years ago. Even if Lloyds don't keep customer statements for that length of time I feel sure they would be able to provide old charge tarriffs.

 

Also I wouldn't recommend claiming something that your income at the time would not have supported - unless you were forced into taking out loans to manage debts consisting of charges. I'm sure if the figures are feasible and based on research such as this, that you will be able to provide in your evidence bundle, you will stand a much better chance of succeeding.

 

Just a few ideas.

[photoman]

Pen

if you go down the route as suggested by Bong, and want an idea of what charges were in years past, I actually have lloyds Bank statements going right back to 1984, and can check on them what the charges were in whatever year for you.

[Pen]

Hi Bong,

 

yes I so agree with you, something like this is not worth doing lightly, I am going to first wait for the hearing on the 23rd June to see what Lloyd's have to say about it, you never know they may be able find my documents so then it will not be a problem. and i can go ahead and start an new claim with all the evidence. I think thats the sensible way forward.

 

What I don't understand is this blumming disposal hearing. Why can I not say to the judge that because Lloyd's refuse to supply me with my information I am out of pocket by a x amount then the judge awards accordingly instead of the marginal amount they do award in these type of cases.

 

wouldn't it be nice to get a judge who is themselves reclaiming bank chargers. are these judger's magistrates.