gazuk Vs HSBC

[gazuk]

Hi All,

 

I have recently decided to start my claim against HSBC. I have had many charges for going over my overdraft, DD reversed etc etc.

 

I have been using my messages feature of the HSBC website to send the initial DPA but i just received the following;

 

I regret that it is not possible for us to order you a statement with all charges applied to your Bank Account. However, you can view charges applied to your Bank Account by viewing historic statements.

 

Please note that you can view all transactions on the last statement plus any made since, with the most recent first, up to 90.

 

Currently you can view historic statements up to six years old through the Historic Statements facility in Personal Internet Banking. You can do so by the following the instructions below:

 

1. From 'My Accounts', select the account for which you wish to view your statement.

 

2. Next, click on the 'My Statements' icon located on the left-hand navigation panel.

 

3. Select the statement you wish to view.

 

The screen will display the first 100 transactions. You can scroll the list to view more transactions from the selected statement. You can sort the transactions from My Accounts in the following way:

 

o Date (ascending/descending)

o Type (alphabetical)

o Description (alphabetical)

o Amount paid in/out (descending)

 

You can click on the twistie next to the required column heading. The running balance will not show on any sort option other than date.

 

I trust this clarifies matters.

 

Obviously this doesnt help me in any way. Can anybody suggest what I should do?

 

Thanks

[mahala]

write to their Data Protection dept, including the £10 and request a full schedule of transactions and charges and details of any manual intervention.

 

They will not necessarily supply this information in the form of statements, but they must supply it. They have 40 days.

 

What wording did you use on your secure messages? Did you give them the authority to take the £10 fee? I'm wondering whether you can reasonably tell them the 40 days has already started, but this will depend on exactly what you asked for in the secure messages.

[gazuk]

Thanks for the quick reply. I think I will probably do exactly what you said, I stupidly assumed that I could get a results through the HSBC website.

 

As an aside, I already have my statements and have nearly finished calculating the charges myself, but I am a little unsure of what the manual interventions (if any) will mean when they eventually turn up. Any advice?

[mahala]

you can bet nothing about manual interventions will turn up. it means that someone actually had to do something on your account because you went overdrawn/had a payment returned/bounced a cheque. The charges are automated, and and a human being didn't go through your account to add the charge and see what you spent £4.53 on at the corner shop.

 

The point of asking for it is to give the bank a reasonable chance to show that they incurred costs because someone had to manually work on your account because of your offence. The fact they they can't/won't give these details can be taken to mean that there are no detials to give - the charge does not reflect their true costs i.e. it didn't cost them £30 for a computer to add the charge and a letter to be sent. It probably didn't cost them much more than 50p.

 

it's worth going ahead with the DPA, if only for this manual intervention bit. If you end up going to court, you'll have the proof you gave them this opportunity.

[gazuk]

Excellent, in which case I could send a DPA tomorrow, finish calculating my charges and then send the pre lim ? or would I have to wait for the DPA to come back?

 

This is such great news, I still keep thinking "it cant be true!"

[Movingon]

If you're only sending the DPA request for intervention, then I would go ahead with the prelim... you won't gain any more charges from the DPA request.

[Spiceskull]

Hi Gaz,

 

HSBC online messaging is sh*t - best to make ALL communications through your local branch. Their internal processes will ensure that the correct person receives your letters.

 

If you know your figures, then issue your preliminary letter when you want - as others say, no need to wait for the results of the DPA request. However, if there HAS been manual intervention, you will need to be aware of this when rasing your claim (although reading the other HSBC threads it is clear that all they send is statements)

 

You may want to wait until 12 days into the DPA request before sending the prelim. This means that when it is time to raise your claim (28 days later), the DPA deadline will have passed, and you won't be subjected to any nasty surprises.

 

Good luck - keep us posted.

[gazuk]

Great tips guys, thank you.

 

Having read my statements there is very little information on what the charges relate to. Obviously when I see a reversal there is generally an associated charge not too many lines down. I however see that on the 27 of several months I am seeing "total charges - £72" I seem to remember them telling me it was a charge once when they were trying to sell me a loan. Does anybody see similar things?

 

I am just worried that when I send my prelim, they will throw it back saying the actuall figure is £xxx. Does anybody have any information about what happens should your claim be inaccurate?

[overcharged_consumer]

Basically, if the charge reduces the balance then it's been debited. I had the same confusion, well, OK, not confusion but I couldn't understand why they'd charge for bouncing a DD on a few occasions and then further down the statement they'd charge for *total charges* too.

 

I think I figured it out in the end. They charge for each refusal at the time of refusal. However, for each occasion you increase your unauthorised overdraft they also charge you but this charge is only deducted once a month. Therefore, the way it worked for me was:

 

Get paid. Account in credit. Spend some money. Drink some beer / wine. Buy some food. Account still in credit. Pay a few DD's. Still in credit. Go out again and drink. Get carried away. Ooops, no money left in account. Charges from previous month applied (used to be £72 here, £54 there but now £25 per *offence* subject to maximum of 5 offences so usually £125). Overdrawn. Charge of £25 registered for collection following month because overdrawn. DD collected. Overdraft increased. Another £25 charge registered. DD refused. £32 charge applied immediately. Another £25 charge registered. Maestro payment paid. Another £25 charge registered. And so it continues until once again I get paid. Once paid the cycle starts again.

 

So, in a nutshell, they charge you once a month after giving 14 days notice (usually on your statement) for any charges incurred the previous month as a result of increasing an unauthorised overdraft. However, for any DD's, SO's etc bounced they will apply an immediate charge which is IN ADDITION to any fees for increasing your overdraft. But here's the killer! They kick you in the bollocks by doing this because the £32 for the privelige of bouncing a DD takes you further overdrawn to another £25 charge is registered! That's £57 to bounce ONE DD. Absurd? I think so!

 

I think that's how it works anyway. It was the only pattern I could see.

 

My bank seem to have given up bouncing DD's now so over recent months I've only been getting charged £125 per month for the privelige of having a bank account. That's actually quite a bargain when you consider that I have been charged up to £450 in some months in the past when things were really tight! Looking through statements you can also see the spiral that gets you into this mess in the first place. Perhaps unsurprisingly the spiral started with just one charge!

 

OC

[gazuk]

Next hurdle is sending my DPA Cheque for £10. Nobody at HSBC can tell me who this needs making payable to!!! I was going to send it as blank but if anybody has any suggestions...

[overcharged_consumer]

Don't send them a cheque - just authorise them to debit a tenner from your account. If you have to send a cheque then make it payable to HSBC Plc I guess.

 

OC

[Spiceskull]

Make it payable to HSBC Plc, and send it recorded delivery to your local branch. It goes without saying that the letter must indicate that this is for a full disclosure under the DPA.

 

Good luck.

[gazuk]

My local branch?! I was going to send it to the registered address as per the FAQ which is 8 Canada Square London. I dont suppose it would matter though would it?

[Spiceskull]

It is best to keep all communications with your local branch. If you don't they will start sending you stuff from all over the country, and responding left, right and centre can become very confusing.

 

This is your claim, and it will be your local branch that you name as defendant. The bank has internal mail processes to ensure that your correspondence reaches the right person.

[gazuk]

Well the reply from the DPA letter arrived on friday.

 

"You have asked for information about "manual intervention" on your account by which we assume you mean the amount of time spent by staff in administering your account. You should be aware that HSBC's charges are not fixed by reference to the specific amount of staff activity involved in the handling of individual accounts. The level of staff involvement in account management varies from case to case but our charges are set at standard rates, set out in our price list. Changes to these charges are notified to you in accordance with the banking code. By fixing and publishing standard charges, HSBC ensures that customers are fully aware of the charges that will apply to their accounts.

 

In addition, you have asked for copies of notes etc. "manual intervention" on your account, however, HSBC's records are not structured in a way that will enable us to give you a breakdown of the indiviual staff time onvolved in administering your account generally or in relation to any charges identified in the statements which we sent you previously"

 

What do you think then??? Prelim time?

[Movingon]

Your DPA Request was for notes and so on against your accounts, to which you're entitled, and which HSBC subsidiary First Direct send out straight away.

 

I would reply to them stating that you require sight of the notes on your account as entitled under the DPA 1998 and their 40 days expires on . Tell them that their discussion of the amount of staff time involved, and "levels of staff involvement" in each occurrence of a default event, and it's relation to the levels of charges, is utterly irrelevant to your requirement and has, as such, been ignored.

[gazuk]

Thanks for the quick reply!! Is there a template available for this kind of letter?

[Movingon]

No, I think that's one you make up yourself I'm afraid LOL

[neilloffhagen]

Thanks for the quick reply!! Is there a template available for this kind of letter?

Yep, take a look in the templates thread -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=6986

 

Neil.

[gazuk]

For those interested, please find enclosed my edited reply

 

I am in receipt of the documents that you have supplied in response to my Data Protection Act information request dated 26-May-2006.

The disclosure of personal data is incomplete. You have neither provided notes nor documents relating to instances of manual intervention.

I do not require breakdowns of the amount of time spent or the individual staff involvement in administering my account other than the information detailed on my records.

 

Accordingly, I have to tell you that you have not yet complied with your obligations under the Data Protection Act 1998, and as such am again enclosing the statutory maximum fee of £10.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

You have a further 29 days to comply.

 

[HSBCrusher]

As a matter of interest (no pun intended!)

I was chatting with my mate a couple of days ago, he is claiming from halifax.

He actually got a letter stating that all charges are automatic, and that the only manual intervention is when the charges are refunded!

I know it's Halifax, but I am sure that it is the same for all banks. There will be no records of manual intervention, just as there are none when a member of staff delete a charge (yes, it does happen!)

Best to get them to confirm though, for the sake of the court.

[gazuk]

Next installment ! Having replied back to HSBC explaining their original letter failed to provide details of Manual Intervention, I have now received the following.

 

Futher to our letter dated 2nd June HSBC's records are not structured in a way that will enable us to give you a breakdown of any manual intervention by any member of staff who administers your account. As previously advised charges are not fixed by reference to the specific amount of staff activity involved in the handling of individual accounts.

 

Please be advised there is no further information to which you are entitled under the data protection act 98 which would shed further light on the charges situation and we therefore return your £10

 

However if you wish to discuss your charges further then please contact our service quality team on 08456 028006

 

Is this confirmation that they cannot prove Manual Intervention? Do I pursue the DPA deadline which is this sunday?

[Movingon]

That's their response on Manual Intervention; they don't structure their charges by the amount of work done... (therefore their charges cannot be a genuine pre-estimate of costs incurred by YOUR breaches...)

 

I would now move on and forget Data Protection (unless you don't have all your transactional data - I haven't read up, sorry).

[HSBCrusher]

You have your figures, you have your manual intervention info, go for the refund.

You have about about 5 weeks or so now before you get the dosh, so the sooner you kick off the sooner you get it!!!

[gazuk]

Hi All,

 

The saga continues. Sent my prelim but no reply. Sendin LBA tomorrow but am interested in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 complaint to the OFT .

Does anybody have any details on this and how I go about it?

Many thanks

Gazuk