Suz vs LlyodsTSB HELP!!!!

[Suzy75]

Thanks again aqua for your help, it makes you feel like your not quite so alone facing these big banks and their solicitors, it's great to see everone helping each other and offering their advice. Hope i can do the same for someone.

Will keep my thread updated as to how it's going. Fingers crossed:rolleyes:

[housekeeper]

hi suzy75 must admit i'm hoping LTSB will pay up before going to court!!! i phoned them today (court) and i do have to send in a court bundle 14 days before the hearing even thou it was not stated on the letter i recieved from them.

good luck anyway and keep intouch let me know how you get on!!!

[aqua2]

Hiya Suz,

 

Ignoring the bits in blue (My comments), is this the defence you recieved...

 

 

 

*************************************************

 

DEFENCE

1. The Defendant Lloyds TSB Bank plc (“the Bank”) is a Bank whose registered office is 25 Gresham Street, London, EC2V 7HN. It is admitted that the Claimant has been a customer of the Bank at all material times.

2. By opening an account with the Bank, the customer enters into a commercial arrangement (So that would be a Contract?)with the Bank for the provision of banking services. The Bank is entitled, as part of that arrangement, to charge for those services. At account opening a customer is provided with details of the Bank’s charges, currently in a leaflet a guide to our banking charges. (So what! You can advertise them on a billboard outside my front door, it doesn’t make them fair.)By using the account, the customer acknowledges that the charges are incorporated into the contract. For personal customers, a number of services are provided for free, notwithstanding that they are an expense to the Bank. (and the relevance of this is?) Such services presently include, but are not limited to providing;

• cheques

• bank statements

• the facility to make payments by direct debit and standing order

• debit cards

• ATMs (cash machines).

Oooh-eee, that’s nice. What has this to do with the unfair terms in your contract?

 

3. By maintaining the account in credit, or within any limit agreed with the Bank, the customer may avoid most if not all charges. If the customer fails to ensure that there are sufficient cleared funds in the account to cover payments, whether by cheque, debit card, standing order or direct debit, the customer makes a request for a payment to be made from the bank’s own funds. If the Bank makes payment, or returns the payment, it provides a service as specified in the Leaflet and makes a charge in accordance with the terms of the contract. On page 1 of the leaflet, the Bank explains that “there are normally no charges for everyday banking at Lloyds TSBwhen your account is in credit.

 

 

When you use an agreed overdraft, there is no monthly fee and we only charge interest on the amount you are overdrawn each day. Where you go overdrawn without an agreement or where you use special services, such as copy statements, we will make a charge. This guide explains how these charges work, and when they will apply.

 

But, there is no equivalent term in the contract, which allows the claimant to make charges, were the situation reversed. Making it non-binding on the consumer, under Section 8 (1) UTCC.

 

If you want to use a service that we haven’t listed, we’ll tell you the cost of that service before you give us the go-ahead”.

 

4. There is no breach of contract; (Who cares, UTCC Section 5, doesn’t have any mention of breach of contract?) the charge cannot therefore be a penalty (but it is non-binding), consequently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate of the Bank’s loss (Except for the fact, that you just presented two perfectly framed liquidated damages clauses, in which case it does have to be a pre-estimate.)

 

5. The customer is given advance warning of charges being imposed; statements show the charges, if any, the customer has incurred during the course of a month, and which will appear as debits on the following month’s statement. (So what, what is the relevance of this?) Customers are warned by letter when they go overdrawn or over their agreed limit without arrangement with the Bank. If the customer fails to remedy the position, and payments such as standing orders and direct debits are refused then again the customer is warned by Letter. (Why are we being warned, if we haven’t breached anything and are not doing anything wrong?)

 

6. The charges are fair and reasonable (Under UTCC. Sec.5, this is not relevant.) , and it is denied that they are unlawful. (But they are non-binding under UTCC(5) and therefore your taking of the money is.)

The customer is notified of the charges in plain intelligible language at the conclusion of the contract, and on each monthly statement. The charge are terms which relate to the price payable by the customer for a service provided by the Bank, and pursuant to Regulation 6 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, are not subject to the assessment of fairness. (Under UTCC (6) the price may not be, but in UTCC (5) the lack of an equivalent term is.)

 

8. in the premises: (Nope, I'm in the office at the mo and later i'll be in the beer garden)

8.1 the charges are for banking services, and are not damages nor a penalty; (But no equivalent terms are provided for the claimant, as required under UTCC (5))

8.2 the Bank is entitled by contract to impose the charges, which are fair and reasonable; (Except UTCC (5) Doesn’t allow this one-sided contract term)

8.3 it is denied that the charges are unlawful or contravene any statute or regulation. (Shall we start with UTCC (5), I’ll do the others later if I need)

9. The Claimant’s claim is denied in its entirety. It is further denied that the Claimant is entitled to the sum claimed or to any sum from the Bank. (Why is that then? Have you actually got a defence that you don’t want us, or the court to know about?)

[Louiselouise]

Hiya Suzy75 - have had exactly the same as you from LLoyds and thank you Aqua2 for your reply - thorougly agree with your blue bits !! Looks like their latest delay tactics but if Lloyds are reading these threads for clues - they can take note that it does'nt matter what kinda stunts they pull - we're not for moving or backing down!!

[Suzy75]

Hiya again Aqua been at work today so just got your message!! Yes thats exactly the defence they put in, seems to be the same as alot of peeps doesn't it, which obviously makes me less nervous. I also was keeping track of this thread:- j.wandless preparing court doc's she actually went to the 15min court hearing yesterday cause Llyods hadn't settled (the buggers) but was so pleased to read that all went well and she had a nice 10min chat with judge about the amount of cases at present!!! She won and was awarded £45 costs for loss of time at work (that sort of thing i think) So it gives the rest of us a little extra hope i think that even if we do go to court it shouldn't be tooooo bad (depending on the Judge maybe:rolleyes: ) Just getting my bundle sorted at mo although must admit when i went onto that bit of site was totally confused as to what i should copy and print off? Any suggestions??? Thanks Suzy;)

[Suzy75]

Hiya Suzy75 - have had exactly the same as you from LLoyds and thank you Aqua2 for your reply - thorougly agree with your blue bits !! Looks like their latest delay tactics but if Lloyds are reading these threads for clues - they can take note that it does'nt matter what kinda stunts they pull - we're not for moving or backing down!!

 

Hiya cathycathy thanks for your message i think there's alot of us little people fighting the Big Bad Llyods at Mo and they seem to be making it alot harder than some of the other banks!!! And yes i would say to anyone now don't be afraid or even 'very afraid' GO FOR IT, it's about time we actually got something back from these corporate companies if you get what i mean (And it was our money to begin with) I must also say that if it wasn't for the help i've had from this site i would be alot more scared at fighting them then i am now. So Thanks again to everyone who's replied to my questions:lol: Let me know how your getting on with your case Cathy and good Luck, Suzy

[Suzy75]

hi suzy75 must admit i'm hoping LTSB will pay up before going to court!!! i phoned them today (court) and i do have to send in a court bundle 14 days before the hearing even thou it was not stated on the letter i recieved from them.

good luck anyway and keep intouch let me know how you get on!!!

 

Hiya Housekeeper thanks for your message, i didn't actually get round to phoning the courts yet and asking about my bundle need to do that just incase i have to send it in like you. Can you just clarify for me in brief what you have in your bundle trying to sort mine out at mo, gone onto the thread that helps you but just a bit overwhelmed by it and not sure what i need to copy and print off?? Will be keeping an eye on your thread also to see how your doing, did you see this thread:- j.wandless preparing court doc's, they went to court for a 15min hearing and won!! there's hope for us all yet against Llyods8) Good Luck Suzy

[aqua2]

I have rather a long document destroying the Lloyds defence, but as I have yet to go to court, dont want everything out on open forum...

 

Your claim, so far, is only based upon the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts, so here is my short version of the argument in this case...

 

If you don't understand any of it, just ask.

 

Although it is highly unlikely, there is an odd occasion, when if the defendant doesn't show up, the judge may ask about your claim, so I guess it helps if you can tell him a little..

 

I think the UTCCR is already in the bundle, if not just follow the linkin the Statutes Library.

 

 

****************************************************

 

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999

(Hereinafter referred to as ‘UTCCR’)

 

1. The UTCCR states, at Part 5 (1) - A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer

 

2. The claimant contends that on this basis, that any contractual term which obliges the claimant to pay penalty charges to the defendant, when the claimant allegedly ‘borrows without prior agreement’, in order to be fair, must have at least a reasonably equivalent remedy available to the claimant, otherwise, there is a significant imbalance in the parties rights and obligations.

 

3. No such equivalent remedy is available to the claimant and the defence, as stated, contains no suggestion of, or reference to, any such equivalent remedy and therefore offers no grounds for defending this cause of action.

 

**************************************************

 

You will note that in Lloyds defence, Part 6, they try to hide behind the UTCCR Term 6, with regards to price.

 

This is not relevant here, your argument is that there is a term which allows them to charge penalties, but not a balancing term in your favour.

 

Good night Lloyds...

[housekeeper]

Hi Suzy, I Haven't Started My Court Bundle Yet Got A Head Cold So Can't Get My Head Around That At The Moment!!!! I Have Saved A Copy Of It A Looked At It Quickly But Found It Abit Confussing!! (thats Nothing New To Me!!!! Ha) Will Keep You Posted Hope You Have Better Luck Phoning The Courts Than I Did I Was Abit Confussed After Phoning Them!!!! I'm Still Not Sure If My Hearing Is Full Hearing!!!!

[Louiselouise]

Hiya Suz - thanks for your lovely reply. I am awaiting a date from my local court as its being transferred there. When I rang - they said we're looking at about August time for the small claims court!! Still - I suppose I'll just keep thinking of the interest clocking up!!!!

[Suzy75]

Hi all just a little up date really, thanks again for reply's t o date and to aqua for all the legal side info passed on!!! Was looking on the 'GOT A COURT DATE' part for help on getting bundle together and it was saying for the small claims track this is what you should be taking:-

• Schedule of charges
  
• Statements showing charges have been made
  
• All correspondance between you and bank
  
• All cases and statutes upon which your claim relies
  
• OFT Report

It's the part about *Cases and statutes upon which your claim relies* that i become nervous, what should i be putting in relating to that cases etc???? To be honest just the thought of the Judge saying to me "So why are you here today and why are you claiming these charges back", I'm gonna be "ermmm because their unfair ermmmmmmmm

Seriously it does worry me that i won't know how to actually explain my case properly and in law terms, will the Judge understand that?? Is anyone else feeling the same sort of worry as me about going to court??? Really want to do this properly now i've come this far don't want to cock up on final hurdle!!!

[nicsussex]

The judge will understand perfectly. The small claims track is very informal an you will be made to feel as at ease as possible. Just complete your bundle as per the guide, and submit within the deadline.

 

Of course it is highly unlikely you will see the inside of the court room, but if you do, you can be pretty sure that SC&M will not be there to share the experience with you. Just stick to what you need to do and you will be fine.

[Suzy75]

Thanks for that nicsussex, i know really it is all reasonably straight forward it's just when i start reading the 'Unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999' and then 'Relevant case law to penalty charges' and the 'Statement of evidence' my brain is about to emplod!!!!! (is that the right word?)HEE HEE

You also mentioned the deadline, i wasn't requested in my court letter to submit any paperwork i need to check with my local court if that is the case??

[Suzy75]

Good afternoon all hope we're having a good day cause so far i'm not!!!! Right firstly i rang my local courts today to find out if i needed to send of my paperwork, answer was;- well yes if you have got paperwork to take to court then you should send it off to their solicitors etc that was about all the advice i could gane to be honest..bit like pulling teeth!!!

Anyway trying my best to sort my bundle out on my own without having to annoy you peeps with thousands of questions all the time!! But i'm afraid i've become stuck again and need some advice...

Was reading through the statement of evidence that i printed of from the 'Going to Court stage' (i think) Part 6. The bit were it says to add an example of a charge incurred due to going over by a small amount..... yes i have incurred plenty of charges but the trouble is having gone over my statements most of the charges were incurred for returned cheques or direct debits and i can't find one that made be go overdrawn by a small amount. For example. D/D of £19.96 came out of account making me go over my o/draft limit of £100 by £12.78. This was returned to account on the same day and then i incurred a charge of £35.00. My question is 'if alot of my returned d/d and chqs have made me go o/drawn in the first place by say £30-£40 (in alot of my cases) then am i in the wrong anyway and does it then make their £35 charge fair????? Hope i have explained that right and not made tooo much of an idiot of myself:confused: Please advice Thanks Suzy

[aqua2]

Hiya Suz,

 

We'll get you a list of things together for your court bundle.

 

Anything you want to take to court, you need to send copies to the defence at least 14 days before the trial date.

 

In respect of the amount of DD's compared with charges, it doesn't matter to your case.

 

The idea here is that if you can show a judge, that they bounced a payment that would have sent you say £10 overdrawn, but then levied a charge of their own, that would have sent you more overdrawn, say £20 overdrawn, then you are proving to the judge that they acted unfairly and disgracefully in their own interests of profit.

 

You don't need loads, just one instance will prove your point.

 

It doesn't affect your claim, it just enables you to show the banks for what they are...

[Suzy75]

Hiya Suz,

 

We'll get you a list of things together for your court bundle.

 

Anything you want to take to court, you need to send copies to the defence at least 14 days before the trial date.

 

In respect of the amount of DD's compared with charges, it doesn't matter to your case.

 

The idea here is that if you can show a judge, that they bounced a payment that would have sent you say £10 overdrawn, but then levied a charge of their own, that would have sent you more overdrawn, say £20 overdrawn, then you are proving to the judge that they acted unfairly and disgracefully in their own interests of profit.

 

You don't need loads, just one instance will prove your point.

 

It doesn't affect your claim, it just enables you to show the banks for what they are...

 

Hiya Aqua my trusted replyeeee!!!!

Okay will use that £19.96 one as an example, now sorry to be a pain but do have another couple of questions......

Okay here goes... Point 7 (Re.statement of evidence) Details of correspondance in which the bank referred to the charges as 'penalties', defaults', or exist to cover costs', I only had to replies from Llyods when initially started my claim and in neither one does it state the above. In first one heres a few paragraphs:-

Like any business, we do make a charge for some of our services. When customers don't have enough in their accounts to cover a payment, this always means extra work - and it has to happen quickly. We have to agree to make the payment by settling up or increasing an overdraft, or tell customers we can't agree it. We feel it's fair to charge for this service. They word it as ''Charged-for-services''etc etc

To be honest just reading down through the statement of evidence i don't think very much of it actually applies to my claim????? Do i really need to have this in my bundle???? I'm soooooo frustrated now I thought i was doing so well boo hoo Suzy

[Suzy75]

Okay i've just gone back to 'GOT A COURT DATE Important Info' and had another proper look through it - And I've spotted the copy of Witness statement for Llyods bundles which having had a read through seems to be better for my bundle than adding the Statement of evidence??? What do you think peeps??? And just to ask again:rolleyes: Cases and statutes upon which your claim relies....what is that???? Sorry if i'm repeating myself over and over it takes a while and then the light bulb will shine!!!!!!

[aqua2]

Ok Suz,

 

If you just list out the items you now have in your bundle for me, i'll have a look through tonight and we'll get that sorted for you.

 

As I said, yours seems quite simple, so we just need to make sure all is in order, then give you some simple arguments if the judge asks anything.

 

I'm out for a short while, but will repsond later.

 

Aqua...

[Suzy75]

You are such a life line for me aqua don't get me wrong i appreciate all the reponses i've had but you have been consistent, so Thank you. I'm sat here at mo with a mass of paperwork and reading this that and the other on the threads my brain hurts (it's not that big anyway)!! Give me a mo and i'll list all that i have so far, it'll be great for you to go through it and clarify what i actually need. I feel like i need someone sat next to me saying ''yes put that in and that but no not that'' and so on.....Suzy

[aqua2]

You can probably take most things, but it is important you are comfortable, so post your list at your convenience...

[Suzy75]

You can probably take most things, but it is important you are comfortable, so post your list at your convenience...

 

Hi again Aqua2 okay here goes this is what i have so far:-

• Schedule of charges
  
• Statements showing the charges were made
  
• All the correspondance to date between myself, Llyods and court paperwork
  
• (Printed off) Relevant Case Law to Penalty Charges
  
• (Printed off) The UTCCR 1999 Full copy
  
• (Printed off) The Money Programme Bank commission Report
  
• (Printed off) List of settlements from Llyods claimants

I did also print off the Statement of Evidence relating to Llyods claimants but must admit as i said above it totally confused me and i read on another thread someone asking if they too should just use the Witness Statement instead, the advice given was too incorporate both together.....yikes

Okay thats about all i have so far and i'm doing my best to read, read and read some more but still not sure if i've got to grips with the whole thing which is so frustrating. Thanks Suzy

[aqua2]

Ok Suz,

 

We're moving on...

 

You mentioned statement of evidence relating to Lloyds claimants, where did you find this, can you direct me so I can have a look...

 

Next..

 

Follow this link... Business banking - Standard transaction charges

 

if you scroll to the bottom of the page, you will see the unauthorised borrowing charge is £15, not the £30 they charge you.

 

Print off that page and highlight the £15 charge, so that you can show, the charges they levied on your account are twice those of a business account for the same alleged service.

 

Now...

 

Follow this link... Lloyds TSB - Other services charges

 

Print off that page and highlight Duplicate Statements £5.00 per page, maximum £10

 

With these you can show that the £35 to send a fully automated letter is outrageous.

 

Next, in the court bundle, print off "The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982", in it's entirety.

 

Highlight Part 15 - Implied term about consideration.

 

You have already printed of (UTCCR 1999) - Highlight Part 5, Unfair Terms and Part 8, Effect of Unfair Term.

 

I know this sounds a lot, but it really will be simple when we put it together and highlighting will take you straight to the part you want, if ever you need it.

 

Also, scroll back to my post in your thread about UTCCR, let me know if you understand the argument.

[Suzy75]

Ok Suz,

 

We're moving on...

 

You mentioned statement of evidence relating to Lloyds claimants, where did you find this, can you direct me so I can have a look...

 

Next..

 

Follow this link... Business banking - Standard transaction charges

 

if you scroll to the bottom of the page, you will see the unauthorised borrowing charge is £15, not the £30 they charge you.

 

Print off that page and highlight the £15 charge, so that you can show, the charges they levied on your account are twice those of a business account for the same alleged service.

 

Now...

 

Follow this link... Lloyds TSB - Other services charges

 

Print off that page and highlight Duplicate Statements £5.00 per page, maximum £10

 

With these you can show that the £35 to send a fully automated letter is outrageous.

 

Next, in the court bundle, print off "The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982", in it's entirety.

 

Highlight Part 15 - Implied term about consideration.

 

You have already printed of (UTCCR 1999) - Highlight Part 5, Unfair Terms and Part 8, Effect of Unfair Term.

 

I know this sounds a lot, but it really will be simple when we put it together and highlighting will take you straight to the part you want, if ever you need it.

 

Also, scroll back to my post in your thread about UTCCR, let me know if you understand the argument.

 

Hi there again sorry been busy haven't had chance to get on here!!! Thanks for your reply Aqua2 will do all of the above. Haven't had chance to read UTCCR thread again yet but i will and let you know if it's sunk in!!!

The 'Witness Statement'' is under 'Got a Court Date? Important please read, from Gary H, if you scroll down it's part 4 Detailed Witness Statement. Can you let me know if you think i'll need to add that to bundle aswell.

So once i've got all my paperwork together is it true i then have to photocopy it twice and send copy to court and Llyods solicitors??? And i did want to ask about this 8% interest you can add once you've got to court stage cause if i can claim it i will and then add it to court bundle before sending to Llyods. Probably have to ask for help working it out though my maths was never any good!!!!

Thanks again, all advice greatly received:grin: :grin: Suzy

[Suzy75]

:o GoodAfternoon all, i received this letter today from SC&M :-

We have been passed a copy of the proceedings that you have issued against our client in Northampton County Court. The Bank will be defending these proceedings on the following grounds:-

1. The fees that you seek are properly incorporated into your contract with Bank; and

2. By making (whether by cheque, debit card or any other means) from your account where you have insufficient funds to cover them, you are making a request to the bank for an increased overdraft, which the bank may meet or decline. If it meets your request, you must pay the necessary charges. The issues of penalties only arise as a matter of law, where there has been a breach of contract, and there is no breach of contract here.

Looking ahead, a situation which gives to a dispute is not one of the Bank wishes to continue. In view of this you are requested, please, to make contact within the next 14days with your local branch Manager on 0845 3 000 000, to review your account. A review may be useful to consider whether your current banking arrangemnets are the most appropriate for your needs.

We await confirmation from the Bank that action has been taken.

Okay has anyone else received a response from SC&M like this before thier court hearing???? I would like to know whats the best course of action to take now, should i ring SC&M and request the outstanding charges be paid???

Any advice greatly received;)

Thanks Suzy

[aqua2]

Hiya Suz,

 

It's another of their scare tactics, where they may try to close your account.

 

This has been done in the past and when it has been, the banks have been fined by the OFT.

 

They are not allowed to take retaliatory action, because of your pursuing your legal rights.

 

Do you have another bank account elsewhere (i.e parachute account), if they do go down this line?

 

 

I can't immediately see a template response to such a letter, no doubt others will point you in that direction, if there is one available.

 

Otherwise, give me a little time and i'll draft something in reply.

 

 

Also, I note your court bundle needs to be in by 6th June, which allows plenty of time to get that together, so don't worry on that score, it is probably better to get the full witness statement together in with that bundle to cover all angles.

 

So don't worry, it's all a part of their game.