Fred_Funk v Hillesden Sec Ltd (Black Horse Ltd)

[Fred_Funk]

It's like this...

 

I owe Black Horse around £600 having taken out a loan with them which was repaid in full. However, at the same time they provided me with a cheque book to use should I require any extra funds - the outstanding debt relates to this.

 

Circumstances dictated that I missed a few payments over the turn of the year. However, I spoke to them in February and agreed to pay £30 per month for the forseeable future.

 

I have a letter from Black Horse confirming this agreement.

 

I paid £30 in February, as agreed, only to start receiving letters from dlc (Direct Legal & Collections) on behalf of Hillesden Sec Ltd (Black Horse Ltd). I ignored 'em - the guy I'd spoken to at Black Horse had advised me to do so should I get any such correspondence - but I then received a phone call from someone at dlc.

 

I explained the situation but, frankly, they weren't much interested. In anycase, I told them I had no intention of making any further payments until such time as I had contacted Black Horse and resolved precisely who I was supposed to be dealing with.

 

That being the case, I am about to post a CCA but before doing so would appreciate some advice on the following questions:

 

(1) To whom should I send the CCA? It appears to me the debt is still owned by Black Horse so it seems logical to send it to them.

 

(2) That being the case, can anyone tell me to where, precisely, I should address it?

 

(3) Five or six weeks ago, Black Horse sent me some correspondence intended for someone else - it includes details of their income and copies of letters Black Horse were advising them to send to each of their creditors. Can I use this faux pas to my advantage?

 

(4) Virtually every letter I receive from Black Horse or the DCAs acting on their behalf refers to a different sum. What's the best way of finding out precisely how much I owe them and how this figure was arrived at?

 

Thanking you in anticipation of your help and co-operation. ;-)

 

Fred_Funk

[Bigmac versus]

Hi Fred_Funk and welcome.

 

1/ Send CCA to the debtor (Black horse) as you say the DCA's are acting as agents so they do not own the debt.

 

2/ BLACK HORSE FINANCE LIMITED

25 GRESHAM STREET

LONDON

EC2V 7HN

 

 

3/ Are you suggesting blackmailing them?

 

4/ Top get all the details and the charges which you could claim back send them a SAR.

[Fred_Funk]

Bigmac versus,

 

Thanks for your help. No need for the welcome though - I've been here for a year on and off now and like to think off myself as a bit of an old-timer. However, circumstances have dictated I haven't had much opportunity to pursue Black Horse... until now! ;-)

 

Blackmail wasn't exactly what I had in mind. Then again... seriously though, what would you recommend? If it might assist the guy whose documents they've erroneously sent to me then I'd be happy to make contact with him.

 

One further question, is there any merit in submitting a SAR before they've responded to the CCA request?!

 

Thanks again,

 

Fred_Funk

[Bigmac versus]

Hi Fred_Funk

 

One further question, is there any merit in submitting a SAR before they've responded to the CCA request?!

 

That depends on what your aim is to do with this.

If it is to recover charges then yes the SAR will tell you what you want to know.

If it is to see if they have the original contract so as to see if they have the legal right to be paid, then wait for the reply.

[make them aktiv runners]

I'm sure the guy would be ecstatic to know he too can complain about his data especially if he is also a CAG member

[Fred_Funk]

As I said, I keep getting quoted different amounts - one appears to be the basic sum outstanding and the other a higher figure with lots of penalty charges added. However, as others have said elsewhere, it seems to be at Black Horse's discretion which amount they ultimately chase you for.

 

In any case, I have no intention of paying the higher figure - should they attempt to enforce that then I will, most certainly, put in a SAR. Until that happens, I think I'll wait for them to comply with the CCA request. Afterall, if they can't do that then any extra charges they might otherwise try and levy on me will be rendered unenforceable.

 

Does that seem to make sense?

 

Thanks again,

Fred_Funk

[Bigmac versus]

Yes it does.good luck

[louiboy]

I've been mucked about by the comedy duo of DLC and Black Horse for quite some time now. Black Horse Outside

 

3) I'd be tempted to send the other person their documents back with a letter outlining/explaining the fact they should make a complaint to both Black Horse and the Information Comissioners Office. At the same time writing to the ICO letting them know BH are sending me other peoples details.

[Fred_Funk]

Just to bring you all up to speed...

 

CCA request was sent on April 10 and delivered to Black Horse's Gresham Street address the following day. As yet, no reply whatsoever received from them.

 

Clearly, the 12 days have elapsed, how do you suggest I should proceed?

 

They haven't been chasing me for any money recently but what's to say they won't start to do so at some point in the future?

 

Moroever, given they've thus far failed to demonstrate they have the requisite documentation is there any way of reversing any adverse credit history I may have acquired as a result of taking out this loan?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Fred

[Bigmac versus]

HI Fred do nothing for now wait until the 12 days + the 30 days have passed.

[Fred_Funk]

Hi guys. Well, the 30 days have now been and gone and not a dickie bird from Black Horse which leads me to ask how would you recommend I should proceed?

 

Since sending my initial CCA, they haven't been chasing me for any money but, then again, who's to say they won't at some point in the future?!

 

Moreover, if they can't produce a copy of the CCA, is it possible that: (1) I could get them to formally agree that that there is, as of now, no money owing; and (2) I could ask them to remove any adverse entries on my credit history which have arisen as a result of the money I borrowed from them?

 

Thanking you in anticipation of your help and co-operation

 

Fred_Funk

[Bigmac versus]

Hi again going on what youve said they shouldnt pursue you for this debt, if they do then you report them to your local Trading Standards, unfortunately this is usually the only way they will get involved with these type of complaints so you would need to log all calls they make to you and keep all correspondance recieved. In respect of the adverse information held by the CRA i would complain to the Information Commisioner who may ask them to prove they have the right and without the agreement this may prove difficult.

 

The debt isnt removed it is still owed by you it is just legally unenforceable.

[Fred_Funk]

The debt isnt removed it is still owed by you it is just legally unenforceable.

 

In these circumstances, ie the debt is legally unenforceable, is there any merit in offering a token payment in return for written confirmation that the debt is settled? This would, if agreeable, rule out the possibility of the debt resurfacing at some point in the future.

 

Thanks again for your help and co-operation.

[Fred_Funk]

Okay guys, it's taken me a little while to get back to this but I still haven't heard a dickie bird from Black Horse and, as a result, this is the letter I propose sending them...

 

REQUEST UNDER CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Account number: XXXXXXXXX

 

You have failed to respond to my letter of April 10, which was signed for by you on the following day (see attached electronic proof of delivery).

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974, sections 77(1) and 78(1), demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account on payment of the statutory fee of £1. This fee was sent with my original letter.

 

You had until May 11, 2007, to comply with my request. Having not done so you have committed a criminal offence and I can only conclude that you do not possess a properly executed credit agreement for the above account.

 

In these circumstances, I am minded to report your conduct to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman, and Trading Standards. As you will be aware, any investigation undertaken by them could affect your ability to offer credit in the future.

 

The above account is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account.

 

Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information regarding this account with any credit reference agency. To register such information, you must have my written consent to collate and share it. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement so, until you produce such an agreement, you do not have this authority.

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to credit reference agencies.

 

As a gesture of goodwill, I am willing to offer a payment of £50 on the express understanding that it is: in full and final settlement of this account; that you inform all those credit reference agencies with whom you exchange information that the debt is settled; and that you ensure any defaults arising from this account are removed.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Fred_Funk

 

enc: Copy of letter of April 10, 2007

Print-out of electronic proof of delivery

 

... as ever, all thoughts gratefully received! ;-)

 

Fred_Funk

[singletracker]

I wouldn't offer them anything to settle the account. Let them prove 1st that the account exists and if indeed it is a CCA faiure to comply, you are in control of this situation. Ask expressly if they actually possess a copy of the agreement and if they do not, that all record of your account is removed from CRA's and that they give you written confirmation that there is no balance payable.

I took on Black Horse when I realised that my credit agreement had my surname spelt incorrectly. I sent a CCA request specifying my name and was also still waiting for my SAR to be complied with. I started court action on the SAR and they paid me £50 to settle, in addition to accepting they could not produce a correctly titled agreement and they therefore wiped the debt, informed the DCA to cease any proceedings and wiped my record with CRA's. I'm awaiting reports from Credit Reference Agencies to confirm this.

All this was over a £100 debt that I was repaying at an agreed reduced sum, yet they added a £75 collection fee and passed on to a DCA. I was incensed and took action after reading up on this site. Had they played fair I'd have paid it off in full, blissfully unaware that I could fight back.

[singletracker]

Just noticed dates you listed. Apr to May?

 

You need to calculate 12 working days (plus 2 for postage) - this is when account enters "dispute" and they have committed an offence under CCA. You then need to add a calendar month for that offence to then become a "criminal" offence (lots of discussions on threads regarding this terminology). At this point, you have them, they have not provided an agreement and if they do now, they need to go to court to request to restart pursuit of this debt (at which point they have to explain to a judge that they failed to comply with your CCA request).

 

Clearly, from April to July, you have covered that time period, but work out the dates very carefully and don't give them any room for manouvre.

 

I would be asking specifically if they are capable of providing a CCA and insist that they wipe any record of the debt if not, as the debt is unenforcable without a "true copy" of executed (signed by both parties)credit agreement.

[singletracker]

I couldn't see a template in the Library - someone correct me if I'm wrong, but, I have a copy of a CCA failure from somewhere else on this site which is superb. See below:

 

Without Prejudice

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Further to my letter dated xxxxxxx

 

By not providing me with copies of certified true copies of the disputed credit agreements and statements for each account, your company has now failed to meet it's obligations under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

77 Duty to give information to debtor under fixed-sum agreement

 

(4) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) -

a) he is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement and -

b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

a) state of account, and

b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor

 

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) -

a) he is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement and -

b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

I understand by failing to provide me with the documentation I requested your company has committed a criminal act. I am now of the opinion that you are unfit to hold a Consumer Credit Licence as determined by the fitness test outlined in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (section 25).

 

25 Licence to be a fit person

(2) a) contravened any provision made by or under this Act, or by or under other enactment regulating the provision of credit to individuals or other transactions with individuals.

d) engaged in business practices appearing to the Director to be deceitful or oppressive, or otherwise unfair or improper (whether lawful or not)

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the Credit Consumer Act 1974 and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Please note, I do not acknowledge any debt to XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

I must insist upon the removal of any defaults entered against my name. You have 7 days to comply and confirm in writing or I will apply to my local County Court for an order to enforce compliance, together with damages at the discretion of the court. I will then be forced to make the relevant authorities, including but not limited to Trading Standards, The Office of Fair Trading, The Information Commissioners Office, The Financial Ombudsman and The Financial Services Authority aware that you have committed a criminal act.

 

I look forward to your quick response to my correspondence.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Thank you to whoever originally posted this letter.

[stebiz]

I couldn't see a template in the Library - someone correct me if I'm wrong, but, I have a copy of a CCA failure from somewhere else on this site which is superb. See below:

 

 

 

 

Without Prejudice

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Further to my letter dated xxxxxxx

 

By not providing me with copies of certified true copies of the disputed credit agreements and statements for each account, your company has now failed to meet it's obligations under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

77 Duty to give information to debtor under fixed-sum agreement

 

(4) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) -

a) he is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement and -

b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

a) state of account, and

b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor

 

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1) -

a) he is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement and -

b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

I understand by failing to provide me with the documentation I requested your company has committed a criminal act. I am now of the opinion that you are unfit to hold a Consumer Credit Licence as determined by the fitness test outlined in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (section 25).

 

25 Licence to be a fit person

(2) a) contravened any provision made by or under this Act, or by or under other enactment regulating the provision of credit to individuals or other transactions with individuals.

d) engaged in business practices appearing to the Director to be deceitful or oppressive, or otherwise unfair or improper (whether lawful or not)

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the Credit Consumer Act 1974 and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Please note, I do not acknowledge any debt to XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

I must insist upon the removal of any defaults entered against my name. You have 7 days to comply and confirm in writing or I will apply to my local County Court for an order to enforce compliance, together with damages at the discretion of the court. I will then be forced to make the relevant authorities, including but not limited to Trading Standards, The Office of Fair Trading, The Information Commissioners Office, The Financial Ombudsman and The Financial Services Authority aware that you have committed a criminal act.

 

I look forward to your quick response to my correspondence.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

Thank you to whoever originally posted this letter.

 

Just a point. What if the default date is removed and then they find the old agreement or default notice. Could it be registered again?

 

Stebiz

[singletracker]

I believe that whilst the debt would then be owed again (after they've explained CCA failure to courts whilst requesting permission to renew pursuit of the debt), it would be regarded as starting from the date of court approval in terms of your credit record, so you'd start with a clean sheet.

Not entirely certain though - anyone with any expertise in this?

[Josie8]

When was the original agreement taken out?

[Fred_Funk]

When was the original agreement taken out?

 

Assuming that question's meant for me, in the absence of a CCA, I'm not quite sure. I've had a few loans from Black Horse and this is the most recent incarnation - it must date from at least three or four years ago.

[Josie8]

Assuming that question's meant for me, in the absence of a CCA, I'm not quite sure. I've had a few loans from Black Horse and this is the most recent incarnation - it must date from at least three or four years ago.

 

If you check your CRA it will show when the agreement was taken out

[Josie8]

Well then as its pre CCA 2006 if they can't produce agreement any monies owing are effectively written off.

 

I think if they had a enforceable CCA you would have seen it by now:p

[zubo]

Fred

 

I just read the thread and the advice been given is sound.

 

I have an issue with using without prejudice - the letter offered is very good, without prejudice means that you cannot offer it to a court as evidence of your reasonable actions without the express agreement of the opposition . So it should be excluded.

 

Secondly, remember cardinal rule number one - NEVER discuss on the phone. Insist on all communication in writing, I even refuse to answer their questions on security checks to establish who I am on the phone, annoys them but simply restate the obvious - to ensure there is no confusion on what has been agreed - must be in writing.

 

Third, do not offer ANY payment, that is an admission of debt which in the absence of their compliance is flatly denied. They could use it against you later or in court.

 

Finally demand that they set the balances to zero and acknowledge no debt, threaten them as I did (well not Black Horse) - I got mine to write off £6k. Look at my short thread when I first started fighting back - it may help you.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/30162-debt-too-old-original.html

 

Z

[Fred_Funk]

Guys

 

Thanks for all your input, it's been invaluable.

 

I'd especially like to thank singletracker for digging out that letter - it's so hard to find things on this site these days - and zubo, whose CCA resources thread had already proved a huge help.

 

As a result of what's been said, I have revised my letter and, I hope, made it rather more hard-hitting.

 

It now reads as follows...

REQUEST UNDER CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Account number: 367342998

 

You have failed to respond to my letter of April 10, which was signed for by you on the following day (see attached electronic proof of delivery).

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974, sections 77(1) and 78(1), demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account on payment of the statutory fee of £1. This fee was sent with my original letter.

You had until May 11, 2007, to comply with my request. Having not done so you have committed a criminal offence and I can only conclude that you do not possess a properly executed credit agreement for the above account. As you will be aware, this is a complete defence to any court claim that might be issued.

 

Moreover, as a consequence of your failure to provide this documentation, I am of the opinion that you are unfit to hold a Consumer Credit Licence as determined by the fitness test outlined in the Consumer Credit Act, 1974, section 25.

 

The above account is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account.

 

Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information regarding this account with any credit reference agency. To register such information, you must have my written consent to collate and share it. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement so, given your failure to produce such an agreement, you do not have this authority.

 

In these circumstances, I must insist that you acknowledge there is no debt and ensure the removal of any defaults entered against my name. I will allow you seven days to write confirming you will comply with this request or, alternatively, I will apply to my local county court for an order to enforce compliance, together with damages at the court’s discretion. I will then be forced to make the relevant authorities - including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, the Office of Fair Trading, the Information Commissioner’s Office, the Financial Ombudsman and the Financial Services Authority - aware that you have committed a criminal act.

 

I look forward to hearing from you shortly

 

Yours faithfully

 

Fred_Funk

 

enc: Copy of letter of April 10, 2007

Print-out of electronic proof of delivery

 

... as ever, I'd welcome your thoughts.

 

Fred