John72 v Lloyds TSB

[John72]

I have submitted a claim for £8100 worth of bank charges and contractual interest in addition. The total claim is in excess of £23,000.

 

I have received the standard SC&M defence and have filed my AQ using the "new procedure" with a draft order for directions. I have also, in the AQ, asked for my case to be allocated to the small claims track notwithstanding it's size, for all the reasons set out by GaryH in his various postings.

 

I'm now just waiting.......

 

John

[lucid]

Hi and welcome John!

 

In excess of £23,000, wow. This is going to be interesting to follow. The best advice I can give is to keep reading up on as many aspects of contractual interest as you can.

 

Good luck. Lucid

[John72]

Hi Lucid

 

Thanks, and yes I will do. I thought I'd read and taken in a lot already from this helpful site, but things just keep developing even more don't they?

 

John

[jim baxter]

Hi John,

 

We do seem to be at the same stage,my claim is for £900 and I am not involved with contractual interest.My claim is with Trowbridge Court it will be interesting to see what response we get from the court to the AQ with the request for the directions.I am not looking forward to preparing a court bundle.

Will keep following your case,good luck.

 

Jim.

[John72]

Just a quick update to say that today is the deadline for SC&M to file their AQ in Court. I have just phoned the Court who confirm they have mine but nothing from SC&M - yet......

 

J

[John72]

Further update - i've just phoned the court who confirm receipt of SC&M's AQ this morning! The court are listing cases for mid - July at the earliest.......

 

J

[lanny1]

Hi John

 

Have you heard anything regarding court yet? any contact with SC&M?

[John72]

Hi Lanny

 

Nothing at all yet. I'll post the minute I do though.

 

J

[John72]

Hi All

 

I have this morning received a "Notice of Pre Trial Review" the text of which reads:

 

TAKE NOTICE that the Pre Trial Review will take place on

 

13 July 2007 at 3.45pm

 

at ..............

 

When you should attend

 

Please Note : This case may be released to another Judge, possibly at a different Court

 

There are no directions issued and it seems I, or the bank, do not have to provide anything prior to the hearing.

 

Any thoughts?

 

John

[darling1]

Hi John, I have just read your PM, I found from the LTSB Barrister at the prelim hearing that they are defending only the CI on claims, they are as I have read before intending to defend the CI bit only, my claim was also for a large amount, but I was not brave enough to try for CI - but knowing what I do now, I am glad I only went for the 8%.

Sorry if this is not what you want to hear!!! But I think it is only fair to have the whole picture.....Good luck to you what ever you decide, When I see how much you are claiming back with CI It is a HUGE amount, but I am sure if you are able to read up everthing you can, understand everything you read and be very accurate with all your calculations, you will be ok!

Good Luck Darling1

 

if I have been of any help to you please be kind enough to click my scales!

[John72]

Having submitted with my AQ the Draft Order for Directions,which was ignored by the court, is there anything else I should be doing prior to the pre-trial review?

 

John

[BARTY]

Hi John

This may help:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/guidance-notes/64911-got-court-date-guide.html

 

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

Barty:)

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloydstsb-successes/1774-barty-lloyds-tsb.html I WON!!!! :-D

If I have helped, please click my scales:)

[John72]

Hi

 

I've faxed and posted GaryH's suggested letter to SC&M and copied it to Court, to show that we're attempting to "narrow the gap" between us. If this gets to a hearing, and there has been no prior contact from SC&M then I'm hoping this might be a useful document to show the Judge.

 

John

[GaryH]

[Discussion moved from here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/32537-purple-lloyds-tsb-5.html#post761375]

 

The actual interest which they have charged you on top of the penalties is part of the penalty - so perfectly reclaimable, yes, I agree. What I'm disputing is our right to then charge interest on top of that at the accounts contractual rate when there is no express term that allows us to do so. Or have I missed your point?

[John72]

Gary

 

On LTSB overdrafts there are two rates of interest - "authorised" and "unauthorised", depending on whether the overdraft is within an agreed facility level or not.

 

Where a customer is constantly operating on an overdraft basis he will effectively be charged a rate of interest on the penalty charges at a "contractual" rate of interest - the rate of that being dependant on whether the overdraft level is within an agreed facility or not - but in any event that will be a rate of either around 18% or 29% which will in turn be compounded. That is a considerable difference to the simple statutory rate of 8%.

 

In my case I have claimed a refund of the charges plus the contractually charged interest - at either the 29% or, in the alternative, the 18% rate - at the discretion of the court. As I was at all times operating on an overdraft basis (sometimes within the agreed facility, sometimes not) I cannot see how the court could rule that those interest costs (charged by LTSB and wholly attributable to the incidence of the unlawful charges) are not refundable.

 

Have I got my understanding on this wrong?

 

John

[GaryH]

The amount in interest they have charged you on top of the unlawful penalties is absolutely reclaimable - I've never disputed that, interest charged on a penalty is also part of the penalty.

 

To claim this you would have to extrapolate the amount of interest attributable to each penalty charge as opposed to the interest levied to normal overdraft borrowing.

 

Obviously if you spend £30 which puts you in to unauthorised OD then they have a right to charge you interest at the U/A rate for this. If however they then charge you a £30 penalty which puts you £60 into U/A OD, you can claim the charge back as well as the OD interest levied to the charge - but you'd have to work out (as accurately as possible) which part was on top of the penalty, as opposed to the legitimate interest charged on your £30 spend.

 

Thats what we refer to as overdraft interest in the templates. Its claimed as part of the substantive claim - as part of the penalties. There are spreadsheets available to help work out which proportion of your total monthly OD interest was levied due to penalties.

 

Contractual interest is claimed instead of (or as an alternative to) the statutory 8%. Its on top of what the bank have already taken from us in the form of the penalties and the OD interest on those penalties.

 

Was that your understanding?

[John72]

I think that I have probably underclaimed against LTSB in the sense that I have not included the OD interest (at the "authorised" rate) in terms of calculating the true extent of the overall penalty, to which I would then add the 8% statutory interest.

 

I am confident that this could be argued with SC&M in terms of settlement prior to a hearing if necessary. My bargaining point, I am hoping, is that SC&M have not pleaded against this aspect in their defence and I can use that to "horse trade" with them. Or dou think I am better amending my POC at this stage?

 

J

[GaryH]

Its hard to envisage how you could have underclaimed given that your interest is 15k.

 

The OD interest they charged you on top of each penalty typically won't be that much - usually only a couple of quid on each penalty at most. Its reclaimed as the actual amount of money they took, rather than by adding a compounded rate of interest on top, if you get what I mean.

 

It seems to me like you haven't claimed any overdraft interest - I.e the interest they charged on top of each penalty, but have claimed the contractual compounded rate on top, as an alternative to the stat 8%.

 

If you'd like to e-mail me your spreadsheet I don't mind taking a look for you, although if you couyld leave it till the weekend that'd be better.

[John72]

Thanks Gary. So that I can understand this a little more, can you run through this with me?

 

Assume that a bank customer is constantly running their account within an agreed OD facility. As such the interest rate on the debit balance will always be at an authorised OD rate.

 

Any charges debited to that account will then form part of the balance on which interest is charged, and which in terms of an increasing OD balance, would be compounded?

 

Am I right in understanding your point that the lifetime of an interest calculation on a particular charge will last only as long as that charge is not "paid off" (effectively) by a credit going into the account?

 

John

[Reigs1979]

Hi John,

 

Any news or any contact from SC&M yet? The only letter I have ever had is from L-TSB, the normal "sorry your not happy" back at the begining of March.....

 

Oh well, only 10 weeks to court...

 

Regards,

 

Adam

[John72]

Hi Adam

 

Since receiving the court date i've written twice to SC&M with a view to encourage them to agree some directions to present to the court. Sadly i've heard didley squat back.

 

I was wondering about making an application to have the defence struck out on the basis that the defendant is abusing the court process and has no intention of appearing in court?

 

John

[GaryH]

You could, but its not without risk. If it was unsuccessful you would almost certainly have to pay the banks costs.

[John72]

Hi Gary

 

You're right, and that was my concern. I will wait for the hearing and see what transpires.

 

John

[John72]

Just checking in to say that I still haven't heard from SC&M or LTSB.....

[John72]

Well this is the week of the hearing - Friday the 13th.........and still nothing from SC&M or LTSB.