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ThulsaDoom

Bank not Transferring funs for Load

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Here's the story..

between 2002 and 2004 my Father had a Car Loan - £7200.

In 2004 he traded it in for another, and took a loan out which consolidated the original loan and the new one - £11500 (£5000 remaining from original + £6500 new)

 

The Bank said this new loan would pay the balance of the old one, which one would expect.

They were to put the funds for the new loan into his current account, then xfer £5000 to clear the original loan. The remaining £6500 my father would use to pay the Car company.

 

They didn't xfer any money to pay off the loan. They placed the £11500 into his current account, he used £6500 to pay for his new car.

 

My father is as financially savvy as a teacloth, and didn't know that the bank had not xferred the £5000 out to clear the old loan.

Over the course of the year, he spent the £5000.

 

The bank realised their mistake, and owned up to it, but he had to pay all the money back.

 

He got quite depressed and worried about it and cashed in his remaining savings etc to clear the full loan of £11500.

 

Does he have any case for compensation?

He now has no savings because of this.

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He didn't notice the extra £5000 in his account?


Just the FAQ’s ma'am. Please read 'em thoroughly before jumping in. Cheers :)

 

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Being a man, I am always right (however I will make no admission of liability if you have misinterpreted my instructions!! :) ) If you are in any doubt, then consult a professional. All opinions offered on this site are just that, and should not be taken as legal advice.

 

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Hhe is financially illiterate basically, and wouldn't know how to check.

He just seemed to think everything was OK.

My mother used to do all the financial stuff before they divorced, and he knew nothing regarding money.

 

One could argue that it's his fault and that he should check his statements, but then he trusted the bank to do their part of the contract.

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thanks karnevil, some quotes I've found on Wikipedia etc are exactly what has happened to my father.

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Here's some further info which really angers me.

The bank, after failing to xfer money to pay of the original loan, continued to take payments + interest from my father on that original loan, as well as payments for the 2nd loan.

 

This then, after 1yr, caused his account to be overdrawn. They have given him nothing back, not even interest incurred on a loan they were to stop 1yr prior.

 

In 2005, my father had a minor stroke which was put down to stress. I didn't understand why he could have been stressed, but now I know. He subsequently lost his HGV license and now has no savings, little income.

 

So goddamn angry !!!!

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You do realise that if you can get a doctor to agree that the financial situation your father was placed in was the major overbearing factor in his stress, that you have a good claim for personal damages.


If the name of the claim is blue and underlined, click it to see how I did it.

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Disclaimer - By giving advice, I am not putting myself across as a legal expert. Always seek professional advice.

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I have only just seen this thread.

 

Did you have any joy with the estoppel search. I have mentioned it a few times. The biggest problem is getting over the hurdle of whether your father should have known about the extra money. It might be a difficult one to argue. If you want to talk to me more either post it here or pm me. I have no legal expertise but I have had some success on this one before as you have probably seen.

 

The biggest factor you have is the effects of stress and I would be inclined to play it hard. Would your father be prepared to go to the press about it?

 

Just some random thoughts for the moment. Let me know if you need anything

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Looking into estoppel, it appears it cannot be used for a claim i.e. once money has been given to bank the cannot use estoppel, but I may be incorrect.

 

Spoke with a solicitor today who said we would likely get the interest back from the first loan that was accrued over the year but thats it.

 

Would I go to the press?

If I don't get satisfaction from Bank or Ombudsman then I may write to the Sunday Post Raw Deal, but I'll see how my first complaint goes.

 

Any info you have would be appreciated.

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OK, I'm going to think about this. I would give you a more sensible reply but rather worryingly I have been on the wine again. I think I might have a problem with drink!

 

Anyway I'm not sure the solicitor is right but they are often conservative (with a small c) about these things. The press idea is a bit of a last resort but always good to have up your sleeve.

 

The major point is whether we can get estoppel into action. You would need to find a way of showing your father's inability with money and his resemblence to a teacloth (excellent analogy by the way). Also thinking about it how do the monthly repayments on the old loan compare with the £5000 he received by mistake. Is it most of it? There may be an argument that it only came to light when the excess of the loan was no longer available to fund the repayments rather than the idea that he spent more than available income. Also the spending pattern - did it change after the extra money was available. That was how we established that we had changed our position as a result of the bank's error.

 

There are a lot of variables yet to consider and the argument needs some fine tuning but I am still a little optimistic for you.

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tks JonesHousehold.

 

Done some more digging into the accounts etc.

My dad has two accounts, 1 for normal money withdrawl (a/c A) and another for Direct Debits (a/c B).

 

Money is xferred from A to B each month to cover all DDs etc and was setup in 2002.

B is never checked as it was teken for granted that it takes care of itself.

Over the past 3-4yrs DDs have increased just slightly.

B was where the new loan was put into and it was B that BOS should have taken out the money to pay off the first loan (which they didn't).

 

B is where the DD for both loans came out of so BOS have also contributed to him 'spending' the 5K which was supposed to pay off the 1st loan.

The first loan was £120/mnth, 2nd loan was £280.

 

The money xfer from A to B was never increased, so there has been a £400 shortfall each month.

 

If BOS had paid of the 1st loan as they should, there would still be not enough £££ going to B to cover DDs, loans etc but my dad would have discovered this MUCH sooner and could have taken more appropriate action.

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once again tks for the reply.

I know you are not 'qualified' to give me a legal answer, but your opinion and thoughts are greatly appreciated.

To answer your questions:

1. He didn't increase the amount transferred (do you know why?)

He didn't have the intelligence to realise he had to.

At the time, there was about £1 - 2K in that account.

 

2. Did it actually go on longer say nearer 18 months

No, 12months.

In that 12months, I noticed 2 or 3 'Bank Debits' amounting to £1500.

Don't know what they are, maybe withdrawls by him at the branch.

 

3. ....did he really pay off £11,500

No, £10365 and remainder of original £7200, approx £3000.

 

4. Did anyone try to complain at the time?

No. My dad, nice a man that he his, isn't blessed with much grey matter and confidence. The bank, as soon as they discovered what had happened, said "what have you done with all the money?"

 

5. ...did account B have interest paid into it or was it non-interest paying?

Yes, about £2. Current account rates suck big time.

 

6. early repayment charges.

Don't, need to find out more.

 

As for wikipedia and estoppel, apparently it cannot be used for a claim.

If he hadn't paid the money back originally then estoppel could be used but too late now.

 

I looked at his other account last night. He had a shed load of £££ but its been spent over 3-4yrs.

On one hand I'm thinking "serves you right you mug, you had all that cahs and you've squandered it".

On the other he's my Dad who needs my assistance with finances, and he's been bullied/messed around by the BOS.

 

Any help is appreciated, as it will help me craft a decent complaint letter.

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OK, I am trying to get this straight in my head. He had a loan that was paid for from B and covered by a transfer from A as part of all the money used to pay DD's. He then took out a new loan with payment £280 pm which is £160 pm more than the previous loan. He didn't increase the amount transferred (do you know why?) and it was a year or so later when the problem came to light. That's an extra £280 per month for about a year or about £3300. Did it actually go on longer say nearer 18 months which would have taken all the £5000?

 

Looking back at your first post, did he really pay off £11,500 when it came to light because he should have had some capital paid off by then. Did they penalise him for early repayment of loans? Has he still got the £5,000 loan?

 

Although you say he spent the money, I am not sure he did. He merely used it to pay the loans. It makes the banks argument that he just spent it (assuming that is their argument) spurious. Did anyone try to complain at the time? What did the bank reply?

 

My initial inclination is to say that this is their fault, your Dad suffered depression as a result and has suffered financial hardship. Try and formulate an amount he has lost as a result. You could pitch it at the amount of interest charged on one loan over this time (did account B have interest paid into it or was it non-interest paying?) plus the amount of penalties he was charged for early repayment. The latter may be hard to calculate but you could just calculate simple interest on the loans, work out what should have been owing from that and ask for the difference back. (Eg £5000 at 5% pa makes £5250 at end of first year. If he pays £6000 in repayments and the final lump sum, then he wants £750 back). It really depends on the amounts as to what he will get back.

 

Alternatively what is the loss on cashing in his investments. If he is getting 10% pa on them and paying 5% on loans he is 5% pa worse off so ask for that over the term of loan that was left at the time it was repaid. You may have to be imaginative in this because whatever you claim they will try to reduce so you will need some leeway. You can also stick a few hundred on for his personal stress.

 

Quite whether this could go to a small claims court claim I'm not sure as I have no pre BAG experience of such things. This is very like a straightforward complaint case looking for compensation. Set out what you (your Dad) want and make them explain themselves. It might be worth just contacting them to get this going and get some information. That may allow you to find a way of formulating a claim.

 

Good luck with this and come back to me if you need any more information. If you can clarify any of the questions I have put above I may be able to fine tune this a bit. However remember I am only a layman who likes to have a go at big organisations especially banks. I have had a few goes at them over the years with some success but then I have always been in command of all the facts and can find an argument in it. I am concerned that you may think of me as someone who is qualified but I am not. It will be up to you (well your Dad really) as to how far you can or will take this and whether it will be successful. I don't want to put you off I just don't want you to get the wrong impression of me. I would just say that if this was me or my Mum I would have raised merry hell about it!

 

You mentioned Wikipedia - di it give you an insight into the estoppel argument and could that help at all.

 

PS Sorry this is so long!

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To answer your questions:

1. He didn't increase the amount transferred (do you know why?)

His bill payment account was setup by my Mother before the split, and it all worked well. He, being not blessed with an abundance of grey matter, didn't even consider that there might be a shortfall.

 

2. Did it go on for 18months? No, 12months.

 

3. Did anyone try and complain at the time?

My dad isn'tconfident enough to complain, and the bank made him feel pretty low.

I only got to know of this whole fiasco 2 months ago.

 

4. did account B have interest paid

Yes, at the usual rate where you get £10/year for each £1,000,000.

 

5. Wikipedia on estoppel.

It was helpful but it appears estoppel cannot be used for a claim such as this. If he hadn't paid them the money then estoppel would have been an option.

There must be a similar thing for someone who has been practically bullied into paying the money.

 

My dad has been very careless with money over the past 5yrs and on one hand I think 'serves you right you idiot', but on the other he's my dad and I need to help him out.

 

I know the info you give is not qualified info but everything helps and will hopefully help me formulate a suitable complaint.

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Whereabouts are you? If you are nearish I could come and have a look at this otherwise I know I will just have to rely on the internet.

 

This seems so wrong! I am sure we could do something with this.

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Right, I think I must have been dreaming about this because I have woken up this morning with all sorts of things whirling around in my head! Let's see if I can try and make sense of them for you.

 

There are 3 ways you can attack this and if it were me I would hit them with all three.

 

First - the straightforward complaint.The bank made an error and as a result your Dad suffered a loss. This will be the interest he paid on the first loan after it should have been paid off. As there was very little interest paid to him on the current account B when the extra money was in there you might just as well go for the whole lot and let them work out the amount extra he received.

 

Second - the estoppel argument.

There is an excellent but legal definition of estoppel on this thread if you have a look.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=6700&highlight=estoppel

My terms are a bit simpler.

This is a bit of reverse logic but it may work. There are three elements to the court case. I will outline them all separately

1. If the bank makes a mistake - this is easy. You say they have admitted as such. If you have it in writing then even better. If not remind them of what was said. You could either try and get an admission before putting the whole argument to them or you could ask for transcripts of telephone conversations if it was during a telephone call (this is very persuasive we have found when they insist they did not say something - we did it with an insurance company).

2. The customer changes his position as a result - this is harder to establish normally. The way I look at this is that whilst you describe your Dad's financial expertise as teacloth-like, it would have been OK if the bank hadn't messed up. He would have discovered after only 1 or 2 months that he needed to increase the amount transferred to account B each month. He would then have acted (even if that just means come to you to ask for help) and would have brought everything back under control. This is where the reverse logic comes in. It's not that he changed what he did but that he didn't change. However that shouldn't make any difference. It should be possible to say that he did change his position because he did not act. Does that make sense?

3. The bank should pay the amount of detriment - the way I see it this would be the £5000 they should have used to pay off the loan.

I know the estoppel rule is a defence rather than a claim but what you are attempting to do here is say this was his defence in the first place and he should not therefore have been required to repay the first loan after the error was discovered.

 

You may find some benefit in finding out what was said at the time. What did the bank say and why did your Dad repay the second loan (or was it both)? Were they trying to call in the loans because of missed payments or something like that?

 

Thirdly - the personal effect. This would be a claim that the effect of the action by the bank, the fact that they pressured him (if that's what happened) to pay back something you are contending he did not have to pay back, caused his depression. Was he treated for it by his doctor and can you get any evidence such as a doctor's letter. Do the dates tie in? The amount is impossible to quantify but you could perhaps look at lost income, lost interest etc on cashed in investments. Try and bring together as many elements as possible.

 

There was another long thread about estoppel and clearly mixed opinions. If you haven't seen it already have a look here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2763&highlight=estoppel

You might want to consider all the negative remarks and search for an exception in this situation just to cement the case.

 

I still have some mixed feelings about this but I tend to have a go anyway and see how the reply goes. Until this bank charges mallarkey I would never have dreamt of going to court so I cannot say if or how this would need to go forward. Quite often however a bank will pay up because they don't know what they are talking about. The staff are often not very well qualified. If you get the legal department that may be a different matter but even then they may take the view that the cost to them is too great to challenge. Also the possibility of adverse publicity may affect the decision making process.

 

I think this is just a case of deciding if you are up for a fight that may ultimately fail but may bring some reward.

 

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this. My legal knowledge is limited and if anyone thinks this is a non-starter then perhaps they should correct me before TD goes any further.

 

By the way, I don't place too much reliance on what solicitors say. If one has said no way, try a few others if you want some qualified support.

 

Let us know what you do because I am interested and I shall be rooting for you. Good luck. (Sorry it's another long post)

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Oh, I missed something (can you believe it after the length of that last posting!)

 

Is there any element of miss-selling of the second loan. If your Dad didn't increase the amount he was transferring to account B was that because he thought the replacement loan was the same monthly repayments as the first loan. It might be worth a bit of research. How did he get the loan, did he phone or go to the branch? Question him about what was said and think about asking the bank what their procedures are for making sure someone knows what they are taking on. It's only a small matter but may give you something to work on.

 

Your poor Dad, he's going to bombarded with questions. Hope he's up to it!

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Have just seen something on Teletext about banks getting people into debt with inappropriate lending. BBC1 Britain's Streets of Debt - not sure when it's on. Might be interesting!

Link here for more information

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=9358

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this thread is rather lengthy and complicated so I am not really following it. However just to clarify one point -- there is no estoppel here. Estoppel cannot be used to make a claim. It can only be used as a defence. The money has been handed back and therefore there will be no claim on this issue. Disregard estoppel completely in your calculations.

 

Another important question occurs to me. The OP said at the outset that the bank had owned up to their error. Is there any evidence of this? Did they put this in writing?


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Thanks for the comments BankFodder. I am a bit concerned about this because my experience is limited. Mind you I wasn't too sure the first loan had been repaid.

 

Whatever advice you can give would be gratefully received

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Yes, I agree with the estoppel being a non-starter. The money was repaid.

 

As for misselling, he was working at the time so had income but unbeknown to him he had £5K in his current account so I think this loan was a bit OTT.

The loan was arranged at his local branch.

 

I know loans are 'means tested' i.e. can you afford it etc, but if the bank know you have £5K in the bank and you asked for a £5k loan, should they offer you some advice and reduce the loan by using up some of your current a/c cash?

 

I should stress that he is clueless re bank accounts etc an didn't even know he had this amount (thankfully I picked up most of my grey matter from my mother).

 

The OP said at the outset that the bank had owned up to their error. Is there any evidence of this? Did they put this in writing?

Yes there is evidence. The bank manager has verbally said this to me, father, his friend.

They have also put it in writing.

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This topic was closed on 11 March 2019.

If you have a problem which is similar to the issues raised in this topic, then please start a new thread and you will get help and support there.

If you would like to post up some information which is relevant to this particular topic then please flag the issue up to the site team and the thread will be reopened.

- Consumer Action Group

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