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Hi,

I recently discovered two old debts I had with Nat West that had been paid off through two different DCA’s.

Anyway here is what I have been upto so far:

I wrote the initial letters to the DCA’s (both of them) stating the usual:

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:− Account/Reference Number XXXXXXXXX OR XXXX Reference: XXXXXXXX

I no longer acknowledge this alleged past debt.

 

I hereby formally request true copies of the signed agreement referring to the above account number. This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - your obligation also extends to providing statements of account. I enclose a £1 cheque in payment of the statutory fee. I understand that this should be supplied within 12 working days.

 

In addition please supply a true copy of the deed of assignment. You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defense to any court claim that is subsequently issued. I would also request a statement of all payments made since you took over this debt.

 

In the meantime please be aware that I consider this matter to now be “in dispute”.

 

Yours faithfully

Both DCA’s replied to say the files had been passed back to Nat West – How convenient! I decided after some reading on here to approach Fred Goodwin, Group Chief Exec of RBS! Why not go highest first…Bear in mind these are two very old debts, but because of the DCA’s were kind of active within the last few years.

Here is my next letter:

Sir Fred Goodwin,

The Royal Bank of Scotland Group plc

Business House F, Level 2

RBS, Gogarburn, P O Box 1000

Edinburgh

EH12 1HQ

 

Dear Sir Goodwin

Re:− Credit Card ref: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Further to my letter dated 5th March to XXXXX Debt Recovery Limited, please see the enclosed photocopied reply. So I am now sending you the same letter for a response.

I no longer acknowledge this alleged debt.

 

I hereby formally request true copies of the signed agreement referring to the above account number. This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - your obligation also extends to providing statements of account. I enclose a £1 cheque in payment of the statutory fee. I understand that this should be supplied within 12 working days.

 

In addition please supply a true copy of the deed of assignment to Equidebt Limited in order to allow them to process the debt. You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defense to any court claim that is subsequently issued. I would also request a statement of all payments made with regards this debt whether directly to you or to Moorcroft Limited. In the meantime please be aware that I consider this matter to now be “in dispute” once more.

 

Yours faithfully

Well within a few days I got a letter back stating:

Dear….

Thank you for your letter dated XX March 2007 addressed to Sir Fred Goodwin, our Group Chief Executive. In view of your comments, we have asked for a full briefing from those involved. Once this is received, a formal response will be sent to you from the bank’s executive.

We will aim to get a response to you as soon as we can but we also want to make sure that a thorough investigation takes place. If, for any reason, there looks like being a delay, we will, of course, write to you again to explain why.

If you have any queries in the meantime, please feel free to contact us.

Yours sincerely,

Now what I would like to know is when will Nat West/ RBS be in default on my request for the agreements of these two accounts? Will it be from when the DCA’s got the letters or when I had to rewrite to RBS instead? Also please advise how many days am I required to wait? The initial letters state 12 working days.

Thanks,

 

Penfold

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Hi penfold - soz, but i don't have a clue about this one. Nattie would be able to advise you but he doesn't log on until early evening. In the meantime, it may be worth pasting this post onto another forum (e.g., general debt) to see if anyone else can help before nattie logs on. Soz I can't be of any use to you, but good luck with this xxx hedgey :)

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Hi,

 

I have posted on the Natwest board: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/natwest-bank/77962-penfold-natwest-rbs.html

 

Could someone please help with timescales and legalities please?

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

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Thanks Hedgey,

 

I was thinking of sedning the following, but was worried it confussed too many issues in one go...

 

Dear XXXXX

Re:− Your ref: XXXXX

Further to your letter dated XXth March I feel I must stress the point I made in my last letter dated XXth March regarding NatWest/ Royal Bank of Scotland becoming very close to breaching its obligations under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act.

Surely the credit agreements for both these disputed accounts are held on a database somewhere? Please supply these as a matter of urgency. I appreciate your requirement to get a “full briefing” with regards these two accounts, but I do not see the relevance when, in the first instance, all I would like are the credit agreements themselves?

From the time it is taking I can only assume that you do not possess these agreements. I will therefore have no option, but to request my data under the Data Protection Act 1998. Since you are trying your best to investigate my accounts there should be no problem in you supplying these for me?

Please can you supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my banking history with your organisation? Alternatively, a complete set of statements for that full period will be acceptable including once the accounts had been transferred to the Debt Collection Agencies. Both the above accounts are now closed, but that should not cause any problem as both were active within the last 6 years.

 

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I am happy to forward you the statutory maximum fee of £10 should you require it, however, given your “ongoing investigations” I presume you will be receiving a copy of these yourself anyway. I would be happy to collect the Data from my local branch.

 

I look forward to your swift response.

Yours sincerely,

 

Views please...

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

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I'm confused now penfold - are you going after past charges as well? That's what I would assume if I read the last letter. I think you could do with Michael Browne having a look at the three letters to see if he could shed some light on them - he's a whizz at this type of thing! x ;)

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Hi Hedgey,

Ok, I was after NATWEST for forcing me to pay DCA’s with no provable agreement using the CCA method. My suspicion is that they do not have the signed agreements! This was for a CC debt and a business overdraft debt.

I want to go after them for both the illegal charges creating the huge debt and also all payments that went to the DCA’s that I should not have been forced to pay if the debt was “unenforceable”. My ploy was to use the CCA agreement method to put them on the back foot then punch for charges as well...

Does that clarify any better?

Thanks,

Penfold

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Ah, much clearer!!! So the charges racked up on your account to the point where you was left with a huge mountain of debt that you then had to pay shedloads of cash to DCA's. Got it!!!! Ultimately then, it was the charges that got you into the rotten position in the first place, so my (totally non-legal, non-bank person, etc.,!) opinion would be to send them the SAR letter but put a much clearer link between the CCA stuff. E.g.,

 

just before this bit:

Please can you supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my banking history with your organisation? Alternatively, a complete set of statements for that full period will be acceptable including once the accounts had been transferred to the Debt Collection Agencies. Both the above accounts are now closed, but that should not cause any problem as both were active within the last 6 years.

I'd put something like:

However, these debts would not have been incurred if such a high level of unlawful charges had been levied on my account. Subsequently, I now wish to see a complete set of statements relating to my banking history with you in the past 6 years.

 

Then go into the "please supply".............. It links the two together much more clearly.

 

I don't have any experience at all on the CCA stuff though, so I can't advise you on that - but if you hang on today, somebody should be able to shed a bit more light on this for you. xx Hedgey ;)

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Thanks Hedgey,

 

 

Thing is that because I went for the boss I have a real person to deal with on this and so do not want to link too much just yet...

 

Penfold

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Soz I can't shed any more light Penfold. Just as a thought though, have you tried the chat room? I've just checked and there are a few members in there at the moment. You may find that one of them has got a decent understanding of the CCA stuff. Give them a try............ and let me know what they say now, cos I'm intrigued to know!!! xx :p

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Penfold i'm trying to find someone to help you !

 

darling

Won: a few, claiming: quite a few more !!!!

 

Better in our pockets than in theirs eh! :)

 

If I help in any way please click on the scales in the corner but please remember that any advice I give is purely my own experience or opinion.

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Hiya Penfold,

 

I have copied/pasted an extract from your thread...

 

Ok, I was after NATWEST for forcing me to pay DCA’s with no provable agreement using the CCA method. My suspicion is that they do not have the signed agreements! This was for a CC debt and a business overdraft debt.

 

 

I want to go after them for both the illegal charges creating the huge debt and also all payments that went to the DCA’s that I should not have been forced to pay if the debt was “unenforceable”. My ploy was to use the CCA agreement method to put them on the back foot then punch for charges as well...

 

 

Penfold, you can re-claim unlawful charges back from Natwest, but you cannot successfully re-claim monies paid to a DCA. When an account is sold to a DCA, they are still entitled by law to recover the full amount of the original debt, despite buying that debt for peanuts. If you were to take them to court for not having a CCA... all they would need to do is produce the Deed of Assignment to show the existence of the debt. The court would not be interested in how much they paid for it. This means that you would be landed with the bill for court costs.

 

The Deed of Assignment will not be sent out to you because it is a document that covers the bulk purchase of debts by DCAs and therefore, it contains details of other account holders as well. This means that a DCA would be in breach of the Data Protection Act if they sent it out to you.

 

You can still claim unlawful charges from NatWest through a SAR request... although if the accounts have been closed for over 6 years, you will have a job getting your statements from NatWest. If you still have your own statements however, life will be a lot easier in this respect.

 

I am sorry that I cannot be more helpful on this occasion, but will post a link for the SAR template on here shortly, in case you neeed it.

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Thanks for that mail. I have a query though if both DCA's are saying they no longer have the files and monies were sent to Nat West surely that means they were acting on behalf of the lender and NOT sold the debt?

 

What do you think on this? Both said in their letters the files were closed and monies were with Nat West?

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

Penfold

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Thanks for that mail. I have a query though if both DCA's are saying they no longer have the files and monies were sent to Nat West surely that means they were acting on behalf of the lender and NOT sold the debt?

 

What do you think on this? Both said in their letters the files were closed and monies were with Nat West?

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

 

If payments were send to NatWest, then it does suggest that they were collecting on behalf of NatWest..... and you can still issue a SAR to NatWest to re-claim charges.

 

:)

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Thanks,

 

That's what I was thinking. Am issuing them with a LBA regarding the breach of the CCA and not supplying the signed agreements. I am also asking for the detailed statements too. Let's see what happens...

 

Penfold

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Thanks,

 

That's what I was thinking. Am issuing them with a LBA regarding the breach of the CCA and not supplying the signed agreements. I am also asking for the detailed statements too. Let's see what happens...

 

Penfold

 

What are you hoping to achieve by issuing a LBA for non-compliance with a CCA request ? Personally, I think the SAR is your only option here.

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Priority,

 

Are you saying that even though there are no signed agreements (let's just assume this for now) I cannot ask them for the money I was forced to pay to the DCA's when they did not have any right to enforce the debt?

 

Please let's not get into a moral issue here, but concentrate on the fact that if the debt is "unenforceable" then surely they could not legally pursue me for it especially via DCA's knocking at my door (which is what one of them did!)?

 

My issue is even if all this has been paid and closed I am now more aware of the CCA and the general laws and they acted, how can I say this...Without the right legal paperwork in place...I probably have said that wrong, but that is what I am asking.

 

Or are you saying it does not matter and only the SAR method is a why of recouping some of the money back?

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

Penfold

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Priority,

 

Are you saying that even though there are no signed agreements (let's just assume this for now) I cannot ask them for the money I was forced to pay to the DCA's when they did not have any right to enforce the debt?

 

You cannot re-claim these payments because despite the amount a DCA has bought a debt for... the full amount is still recoverable. All a court would need to see is a Deed of Assignment to prove its existence. This means that you would lose your case for a refund and be left with a bill for court costs. If the DCA was collecting on behalf of the original creditor, then the payments would have gone to the original creditor, so you couldn't re-claim them on that basis anyway.

 

Please let's not get into a moral issue here, but concentrate on the fact that if the debt is "unenforceable" then surely they could not legally pursue me for it especially via DCA's knocking at my door (which is what one of them did!)?

 

This is not a moral issue... you only have to read some of my threads to know that. I have exactly the same grievance as you and paid a DCA for 4 years without them having a CCA, so I know exactly where you are coming from. It has eaten me away for a long time.... and from time to time, continues to do so.

 

My issue is even if all this has been paid and closed I am now more aware of the CCA and the general laws and they acted, how can I say this...Without the right legal paperwork in place...I probably have said that wrong, but that is what I am asking.

 

It makes no difference.

 

Or are you saying it does not matter and only the SAR method is a why of recouping some of the money back?

 

Unfortunately, yes.... it is the only way.

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

 

:(

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Hi Priority,

 

Thanks for the reply. Can you (or anyone else) answer me one question that has arisen from another old debt of mine, that may well arise from this one!

 

Issue is simple, the debt was closed off over 6 years old and so the lender comes back and says we do not hold any info (or the CCA) on this anymore because we do not need to.

 

Can they say that if they are still collecting even if via a DCA? Who regulates or watched for the CCA? Is it Trading Standards or because an ACT parliament only? Sorry for my ignorance on this one.

 

Remember we are assuming (and are pretty sure) the debts we NOT sold on.

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

Penfold

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Hi Priority,

 

Thanks for the reply. Can you (or anyone else) answer me one question that has arisen from another old debt of mine, that may well arise from this one!

 

Issue is simple, the debt was closed off over 6 years old and so the lender comes back and says we do not hold any info (or the CCA) on this anymore because we do not need to.

 

If the debt was sold (?) over 6 years ago, then I would assume that the CCA would have been destroyed by the original creditor. In my case, the CCA was destroyed while the account was with an internal DCA though. A lot of creditors destroy CCAs after 6 years to comply with The Data Protection Act... which means that if an account is old, the liklihood of them producing one is low.

 

Can they say that if they are still collecting even if via a DCA? Who regulates or watched for the CCA? Is it Trading Standards or because an ACT parliament only? Sorry for my ignorance on this one.

 

DCAs are in the habit of collecting without a CCA.... which they are not meant to do, but they do it anyway. This is why individuals are within their rights to withhold payment... when the DCA defaults on this request within the legal timeframe of 12 working days from receipt.

 

I am not sure I understand the 2nd part of your question. A CCA request falls under the Consumer Credit Act, 1974. DCAs can be reported to Trading Standards for collecting payments without having a properly executed CCA in their possession.... but they will not investigate individual complaints against a company, which puts people off doing it.

 

Remember we are assuming (and are pretty sure) the debts we NOT sold on.

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold

 

:)

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  • 3 months later...

Hi guys,

 

Update time, further to my correspondences with Sir Fred and co I fainally got a letter yesterday from Iain Clink Cheif Exec of natWest Cards to say they do not have a legal agreeement with me and so the debt is unenforceable, but because closed in 2004 and settled no refund! Funny he failed to mention the other debt I am quering still with a fair bit on it! I wonder why...Oops no agreement once more me thinks...

 

LOL see you in court mate...I have issued him with a LBA to ask how he came to that conclusion given the Banks "Legal Charges" and the rest of the truth they tell! If no agreement exists then no debt exists and so I will fight for refund.

 

Anyone think I can win the refund of payments made?

 

Thanks,

 

Penfold92

Penfold

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  • 1 month later...

Ok, really puzzled now…

NatWest’s sols Cobbetts have sent me an acknowledgement of service and sent me the standard one they are sending out regarding bank charges. But my case is not about Bank Charges!

Will the Judge laugh and ignore them or will a stay be filled on this case? Should I write to Cobbetts and tell them to read the POC once again or leave it and go for judgement when they file the wrong defence?

Advice please…

Thanks,

Penfold

Penfold

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  • 2 weeks later...

UPDATE here is the letter I sent the Court Manager to review my case as the Judge was confused by Cobbetts response:

 

Dear Court Manager,

RE: Claim number 7LU02829

I received the Judgement for this case last week. On speaking to someone at your office I was advised to write in and so I would like to humbly request if my case could be put before the Judge once more since I think there has been some sort of error. My case is not a Bank Charges case and so I do not understand why the Defence has put forward a request for a stay and then why this was granted.

I hope that his honour will see that this is not the case and advise me of the next steps required.

Yours faithfully,

.........

 

 

I hope that the Judge will see this and go straight to an AQ on this case. If that is the case then I will write to the Judge re striking out the case based on a completly incorrect defence. It will never happen, but at least teh Judge will be aware that Cobbetts have mucked up well before they submit an ammended defence.

 

Penfold

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  • 2 months later...

Just to update,

 

Cobbetts filed a defense and the court have asked me to respond which I am doing today. They are basing their defence on the fact that they do not need to supply information as these were all overdrafts. I know this not to be true and also the fact they are settled. Now that is because they took the final dividend payment from my IVA even though I told them not to...Bless them...

 

They have even stated (Cobbetts that is)

 

" According to our clients records, in March 2007 you were provided with statements in relation to each of these accounts dating back to 1992. You were also sent a manual statement of each account which detailed the dates on which the accounts were opened, the dates on which Formal Demands were served, the rates of interest applied to each account and details of interest and charges.

 

Can you believe these people. I have asked the Judge to issue that as his next direction, please supply this alledged letter and all these statements.

 

Let's hope His honour does exactly that...

 

Penfold

Penfold

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