Westminster Parking Tickets now from CCTV

[a2222]

I got a parking ticket not from a warden but from a CCTV camera with no ticket on the car having pulled over to take a call (single yellow line)

 

No real point, or question but I find this a pretty scary development really.

[hugh jass]

My husband had one of these from Enfield council, it was quite amusing really.

The photograph included with the paperwork showed my husbands van parked in a loading bay, which was clearly marked, with the back of the vans doors wide open as he was loading and unloading.

Obviously I appealed against this ticket and got the reply that on this occasion they would let the ticket go.....they had no grounds to issue it in the first place

Hugh Jass

[Recycler]

makes keeping to their own enforcement protocols pretty difficult though - have to double park to carry out any observation, which hardly helps with the traffic flow.

 

& has anyone checked whether these smart cameras are type approved by the DOT? without which the images would be inadmissible as evidence?....

[green_and_mean]

I got a parking ticket not from a warden but from a CCTV camera with no ticket on the car having pulled over to take a call (single yellow line)

 

No real point, or question but I find this a pretty scary development really.

 

You did get a ticket from a PA not from a camera they simply observe you via cctv rather than by trudging around the streets. They are obviously effective as they caught you parked where you should not have been?

 

The photograph included with the paperwork showed my husbands van parked in a loading bay, which was clearly marked, with the back of the vans doors wide open as he was loading and unloading.

Obviously I appealed against this ticket and got the reply that on this occasion they would let the ticket go.....they had no grounds to issue it in the first place

 

Having a van with the doors open does not constitute loading or unloading if no loading was observed by the cctv operator the PCN was issued correctly. Many drivers leave vehicles parked with doors open especially builders in the hope they will escape a ticket but loading still needs to be seen by the PA.

[Rob S]

 

Having a van with the doors open does not constitute loading or unloading if no loading was observed by the cctv operator the PCN was issued correctly. Many drivers leave vehicles parked with doors open especially builders in the hope they will escape a ticket but loading still needs to be seen by the PA.

 

The ticket was cancelled for the OP in this instance, and local authorities rarely back down in these matters unless they have no choice.

 

Which local authority do you work for as a PA just out of interest?

[green_and_mean]

I work for a local authority for Lesiure services not in Parking enforcement. I did not dispute the OP PCN was cancelled simply stated they may have had grounds to issue it if no loading was seen. It is a common misconception leaving doors open or hazard lights on will avoid a PCN but after the observation period the burden of proof is put on the driver to prove they were loading.

[a2222]

Personally I do feel that it lessens my quality of life to have parking tickets issued by cctv. You may feel that this is an extreme view but I have since refused to drop friends off on loading bays, not visited certain shops and it has certainly increased my paranoia when driving and parking.

 

A parking ticket from a warden is a fair cop. A cctv camera on a junction, red light, speed cameras, etc again all fair cops.

But it was an empty street round the corner from my house, very wide, very residential and I made a decision to pull over to take a very important work call rather than carry on driving. I have a residents permit for that borough. Had I realised their were cameras I would have just pulled 10yds forward on to a residents bay. Should I have seen a warden I would have driven off.

 

And I honestly had no idea that 1 minute parked on a single yellow line with the engine running on my car constituted a driving offence. Does it? Could I not argue that the car was moving.

 

I am fully in favour of parking restrictions being enforced fairly strenously when safety issues are a concern or indeed the traffic flow. Unfortunately with some councils around me in central london, most noticably westminster, it seems that revenue creation is a large consideration.

 

I do feel that to pull over on a yellow line at 3pm in the afternoon to take a call on an empty street does not warrant a fine equivelant to a day's work for me.

[green_and_mean]

And I honestly had no idea that 1 minute parked on a single yellow line with the engine running on my car constituted a driving offence. Does it? Could I not argue that the car was moving.

 

Since you were filmed on cctv claiming you was driving not parked would be a little daft don't you think? A yellow line means no waiting or parking all you are permitted to do is load/unload or drop people off/pick up.

Claiming the street was empty as a defence hardly makes sense as the point of the yellow line you were on to keep it free of vehicles.

Did you know that being on a mobile with the engine running is also an offence?

The law treats everyone equally stopping to chat on your phone may seem a good excuse to you, just as someone else may think popping into a shop for some fags is a valid reason to stop on a yellow line. At the end of the day unless you are exempt waiting or parking is just that and you are liable to get fined.

[Rob S]

Would you have preferred the OP to have carried on driving and answered his phone?

 

It used to be normal for wardens to have to observe a vehicle for 5 minutes on single yellows before they could write a ticket to ensure there was no loading or unloading. If the OP was only there for a minute then issuing a PCN for that is certainly showing a lack of common sense by the local authority concerned.

[green_and_mean]

Would you have preferred the OP to have carried on driving and answered his phone?

 

what would he have done on a motorway stopped on the hatd shoulder? Answering the phone has never been compulsory has it, besides if you read his other post it was him who made the call.

 

 

It used to be normal for wardens to have to observe a vehicle for 5 minutes on single yellows before they could write a ticket to ensure there was no loading or unloading. If the OP was only there for a minute then issuing a PCN for that is certainly showing a lack of common sense by the local authority concerned.

 

Everyone says it was only a minute but its rarely ever true and in the most recent post it has stretched to 3-4 mins. Observations of 5 mins are still done by cctv operators unless the contravention is an instant offence like parking on a loading restriction.

[Rob S]

17 posts, all in the parking section. For someone who works in the leisure services department, you are taking a huge interest in the parking forum.

[a2222]

yes sir... it was a bit daft... I thought you could stop on a single yellow for a few minutes. I also thought that to get a parking ticket you actually had to have a parking ticket put on your car. My bad. the ironic thing is that I was actually picking someone up - my flatmate - who was round the corner but I could not work out where he was.

 

What I should have done was parked where I did, got out taken a envelope / bit of paper from my car, unloaded it into a nearby garden or porch, got back into the car, made a call found out where he was and gone pick him up - and then not get a fine!

 

If I was parked somewhere deemed safe to park for 10 minutes loading / unloading then necessarily it is a pretty safe place to park for a 2 minute phone call to find out where the person you are trying to pick up is? no?

 

Unfortunately I have more interesting things going on in my life to know the minuate of different councils parking restrictions, to know I should have feigned loading, or to have been alerted by the move into PCNs via CCTV.

 

But fortunately I really enjoy learning the minutae to get off them. 16 from 17 and counting! Not bad eh mr mean?

 

When I spoke to the council appeals department the team leader told me "well you should have just taken the call and carried on driving - thats only a £30 fine!"... when I pointed out that this could have resulted in an accident she backtracked somewhat - but I think that gives some idea of the councils attitude to this!

 

'Money grabbing cnuts' is the phrase that springs to my mind.... but Im sure you're a lot nicer in the leisure centres....

[green_and_mean]

I doubt very much that most of those that post in the banking section work in banks either??

I didn't realise that to have an interest in parking issues you had to be a parking attendant I thought this forum was for consumers?

[green_and_mean]

Unfortunately I have more interesting things going on in my life to know the minuate of different councils parking restrictions

 

Yellow lines are in the Highway code and therefore the same nationwide there is no difference if you are in London or Aberdeen.

 

I sympathise with your situation but sadly thats motoring for you these days, too many people driving too many cars in such a small space. I gave up driving years ago and cycle now and never get a single PCN, lol.

[a2222]

unfortunately I do cycle in london a lot (and ride a scooter) but cycling is very dangerous and there seems to have been no improvement in the cycle lanes in the last 20 years!

 

In my defence I really do consider myself to be quite a conciencious driver and having had lots of parking tickets on a scooter a few years ago I really am very careful now where I park but do find myself still averaging a couple of tickets a year... and the odd forgetting to pay the congestion charge one. Over the last 3-4 years I have also had 5 tickets when I was 100% legally parked. As well as 33 tickets on a scooter that I had had stolen and reported to the police(!). So whilst it probably shouldnt - it does amuse me somewhat when I get out of them and can treat myself to a nice slap up meal with the cash.

 

I am genuinely sorry to have had a pop at you (across a couple of threads) - I know you are only making fair and upstanding points about the law being in place for a reason and everyone being equal in needing to obey those laws.

 

But in London these days it really is crazy. Sunday restrictions, CCTV, tickets on a bank holiday. Westminster have also been really reducing both the numbers of disabled bays & converting lots of singles to doubles. It sometimes seems less of a crusade for road safety / lessoning congestion and more a callous money grabbing raid.

 

Which I guess is why in these situations I actively enjoy taking them on.

 

And this PCN via CCTV really did quite shock me as I just didnt realise I was in the wrong as thought I could pull up on a single yellow for a few minutes. Im a reformed bad parker & really wish I could feel safe on a bike in london and ditch the car too!

[Rob S]

I doubt very much that most of those that post in the banking section work in banks either??

I didn't realise that to have an interest in parking issues you had to be a parking attendant I thought this forum was for consumers?

 

It is, but it's very unusual for someone to join this forum and post exclusively in the parking forum and in a tone that is saying "tough, you shouldn't have done that, pay up!". I'm sure there are a few people out there who have the same suspicions that I have.

[patdavies]

Did you know that being on a mobile with the engine running is also an offence?

 

No, it's not.

 

Various bodies have put forward the suggestion that in order not to be 'driving', the engine must be turned off/ For the Police it is a very convenient indicator.

 

However, the offence is that of using a hand held mobile when driving.

 

I certainly don't turn off the engine when on a call - it is needed to keep the a/c running.

 

The matter of having the engine switched off or not will not be finalised until tested in the High Court - the law id far from specific.

[green_and_mean]

The current legal definition of driving states that "a person may be regarded as driving a vehicle while the engine is running and the vehicle is stationary". There are exemptions but they are few and far between. So, for example, an exemption might apply if a phone was used to make an emergency 999 call in a situation where it would be dangerous for the driver to stop.

Until this rule is changed it is currently an offence to use the phone with the engine turned on. Reason being it would be impossible to differentiate between drivers stopped in traffic (at lights or example) and someone at the roadside.

[Rob S]

Reason being it would be impossible to differentiate between drivers stopped in traffic (at lights or example) and someone at the roadside.

 

It might be impossible for you, but I think the rest of us could differentiate quite happily:D

[patdavies]

The current legal definition of driving states that "a person may be regarded as driving a vehicle while the engine is running and the vehicle is stationary".

 

Can you back that statement up with statutory evidence? (Clue: No)

 

I would be interested if you can, because the definition of driving changes from statute to statute.

 

For example. pushing a motorcycle can be classed as driving. For drink/drive laws, merely sitting in the driver's seat with the keys in the ignition is driving.

 

The legislation outlawing the use of hand held mobile when driving does not have a definition of driving within it. Until defined by the High Court in a test case (or the legislation is altered by Parliament), it is open to interpretation.

[bribri]

Is there any case law (patas etc) back up to the statement that you can pick up/drop off people whilst on a single yellow line.

 

If it is allowed, do the people have to get out the car immediately or can they have time to gather their bags, do they have to be ready to get in the car or are you allowed to wait for them to turn up?

 

Is it actually the case that the only picking up/dropping off of people you can do is related to them loading or unloading something i.e. you couldn't drop them off to go to a bus stop.

[Rob S]

See page 5 of this document from Tfl:-

 

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/TE-leaflet-final.pdf

 

And this from the London Borough of Bromley:-

 

London Borough of Bromley | Avoid parking tickets

 

And from North Yorkshire County Council:-

 

North Yorkshire County Council: Road markings - yellow lines

[Esinem]

after the observation period the burden of proof is put on the driver to prove they were loading.

 

 

Sigh! There was a day in this fine country that a man was innocent until proven guilty.

[green_and_mean]

Sigh! There was a day in this fine country that a man was innocent until proven guilty.

 

You thought you would dig up a 3 year old thread just to say that.....??

[Esinem]

It's time everyone stopped moaning about parking charges, fines etc. and got off their butts and did something. Today, after over 18 months of protests, No To Bike Parking Tax took Westminster to court to fight the illegally introduced pilot for charging motorcycles to park. It is obvious to most of us that much parking legislation and the way it is managed in highly revenue orientated. It now costs about the min wage to bring a car into central London, meanwhile public transport costs rocket. Bikes are one of the few remaining choices for economic, non-congesting transport.

 

It is illegal to introduce parking schemes purely to raise revenue but we see this being done blatantly. Whether you support NTBPT's cause or not, you should unite with them to show the powers that be that thye can't carry on ripping off drivers. If the biker's win this, it will prove that "Oh, what can we do about it?" carrys no weight and with a will and some direct action we can change things for all road users.