Bailiff Help

[daz_f]

i owe £810 in council from this year.

i have had money trouble all year since being hit my the csa by my ex partner.

 

about 5 weeks ago a bailiff called from rosendales regarding my council tax.

i did not let him and told him to go away.

he put a wpa through my door with my car down on. it

 

my mum gave me £650 to pay towards the debt which i did.

i contacted them to tell them i was paying £650 straight away but i would not have the out standing which is £160 until the end of the month(march)

 

monday i come home form work and find a letter to say final notice before removed of goods and i now owe £270.

 

i phoned the bailiff to find out why i now owe £270 and that it is not the end of the month yet.

i was told van charges.

now i know no van turned up i ask my neighbours.

he was saying he will remove my goods and i started panic.

 

i when on the manchester city council website and paid the council online to them in full without the van charges.this was on monday

 

so now i do not owe the council anything.

a neighbour said a van turned up tuesday when i was in work.

 

i contacted them again and said i do not agreed with this charge.

they have only been once.

pay it they told me.

i have not told them that i paid in full to council

 

they said if i don'y pay the £110 the bailiff will call again.

told them i will not let them in which they replied they will then call with the police to break in.

 

i did transfer my car over to my fiancee

 

is there anything they can do now with this £110 and what is the best thing to

 

i am getting people telling to just ignore them

they will stop in the end

 

 

what can you advise me on this

[smashedbobo]

Hi hun, welcome to the site, someone will be along shortly to give you some advise. if you read through my threads you will see there are certain letters you can send etc, Good luck and try not to worry too much now

[Billyhunt]

Daz F, if you have not allowed the bailiff in before and not signed anything, then the bailiff cannot force his way in and he cannot sieze goods, this is fact so dont worry. If you have let them in before, then provide some more details regarding what you have signed, for further advice.

 

They can levy on the car if it is owned by you. If it is not yours, then they cannot and the van charge they are claiming is not due (as long as you can prove the car is not yours). The charges for first and second visits are due though:-

 

If the Bailiff visits the premises but does not gain entry:

1st visit - £20

2nd visit - £15 (I thinks these are correct but someone else on here can clarify this for you). No van charges are applicable.

 

So if you paid your £650 directly to the bailiff, they can deduct these charges from the money you owe but no more. So check that all the council tax has now been cleared and you have paid enough to cover these costs and then write to the bailiff informing him of this and thats the end of the matter. Dont be intimidated by them anymore.

 

Hope this helps.

[The Watcher]

as long as you can prove the car is not yours

 

Often easier said than done. How do you "prove" a negative?

 

A friend of mine - who works locally - has asked if he can park on my driveway, one day a week, (as it's walking distance to town, and there is alot of redevelopment work going on affecting car parks etc).

 

Should anyone knock - how do I "prove" the vehicle isn't mine?

[Saffronflowers]

The log book - has the owner on it, but the onus is more on the fact that they have to prove it is yours.

 

SFx

[The Watcher]

The log book - has the owner on it, but the onus is more on the fact that they have to prove it is yours.

 

SFx

 

Exactly my point! As I'm NOT the owner I wouldn't have the log book (and neither, I suspect, would anyone else who was parking on their way to work !)

[Billyhunt]

As daz f is forwarned that the bailiffs are about and he commented that he had transfered the car over to his fiancee, I think I would be safe in assuming he has access to the log book, insurance details etc for the car to prove ownership.

 

Daz f could leave it and try to prove after the event that the car is not his but this would be time consuming and his car could be clamped or worse removed in the meantime. Better to be as prepared as possible I say before the event. It can be difficult to prove ownership I agree but having documentation handy can only help in the long run.

[Saffronflowers]

B/H and Daz - dont disagree, but actually it is a very sticky wicket as they have levied the car on the WPA, which states that cars goods cannot be transferred of ownership, there fore the log book would detail this happening.

 

Daz as I said to your thread on MSE, remember that this is a new debt therefore they would have to get a court order to be able to use distraint on this debt. This debt to them is not part of the liabilty order for the Council Tax - please correct me someone if I am wrong.

 

SFx

[The Watcher]

As daz f is forwarned that the bailiffs are about and he commented that he had transfered the car over to his fiancee, I think I would be safe in assuming he has access to the log book, insurance details etc for the car to prove ownership.

 

Daz f could leave it and try to prove after the event that the car is not his but this would be time consuming and his car could be clamped or worse removed in the meantime. Better to be as prepared as possible I say before the event. It can be difficult to prove ownership I agree but having documentation handy can only help in the long run.

 

Agreed - in the case of Daz f - but not in the scenario that I described above.

 

Do they just "assume" that a vehicle in your drive belongs to you - or do they have to take steps to find out conclusively?

 

In the scenario I described above, I'd be tempted to point the fact that the vehicle did not belong to me out to them, and if they chose to ignore this, then simply leave them to it ! How long are they prepared to sit and wait till someone comes along and offers to pay, before removing a clamp?

 

If they actually towed the vehicle away (unlawfully) then wouldn't they be subject to a heavy compensation claim from the rightful owner?

[Saffronflowers]

The onus is on the bailiff to ensure the property belongs to the debtor - not too hard through the dvla -

 

SFx

[Guest Herbie]

I'm sorry but a bailiff can ASSUME that you own goods. The onus of proof IS ALWAYS on YOU......not the bailiff to provide prove of ownsership.

 

There is Case Law on this which is very clear indeed.

 

This is why we always advise that a letter is sent to the bailiff company to advise them BEFORE they come to the property to inform them that you do not own the goods.

[The Watcher]

I'm sorry but a bailiff can ASSUME that you own goods. The onus of proof IS ALWAYS on YOU......not the bailiff to provide prove ownsership.

 

There is Case Law on this which is very clear indeed.

 

That is why we always advise that a letter is sent to the bailiff company to advise them BEFORE they come to the property advising them that you do not own the goods.

 

Thanks, Herbie ... like I said earlier - How do you prove a negative?

[daz_f]

can they levy my car on a wpa if i did not sign it

[Guest Herbie]

Thankfully this debt is now paid. In time this news will filter through to the bailiffs company. You must inform them straight away to stop any further action.

 

They have not been into your home.

 

They cannot post a Walking Possession through the door.

 

There has to be a sequence of events, first they have to gain entry into the property.....next they have to identify goods to seize...these goods are then listed on a Walking possesion......he signs...you sign.

 

 

 

Once this has happened....then if you do not keep to the payment arrangements...... they can return....with the van to remove.

 

Clearly this has not happened. The bailiff knows full well that he has to levy on goods....before he can come back and remove them.

 

Inform them IMMEDIATLEY by letter that you have paid and ask for a complete breakdown on what they THINK that you owe and in your letter, Inform them that you will be copying their response to the local authority.

[daz_f]

can i just check this is right

can a bailiff charge a levy charge if i did not sign a walking possession agreement

[basil010]

Hi there, seems to me that you are one of the thousands that are being abused by Rossendale's. They are well known for their deliberate abusde of the legislation as was seen on the BBC "Whistleblower" programme. They rely heavily on applying as many attendance fees as they can, inlcuding "removal Van" fees when no actual attendance has been made.

 

A Bailiff is allowed to seize goods that belong to " a debtor" and only goods that so belong. If the car has been transferred to your fiance it would need to have been done before it was seized. On the matter of the Walking Possession Agreement, this has to be signed by you or a person (over 18 years old) acting on your behalf. It is an agreement from you that the seized goods will not be removed or transferred to someone else. If you did not sign it, it is not legally binding. If you have paid the debt they cannot enforce it further, irrespective of whether they received the money or the council. If you paid the balance to the council they must cancel the Warrant against you.

 

You have options now:

If they return, do not allow them entry into your house, they have no right unless they can "gain peaceful entry", don't give it to them, insist on seeing the "Bailiff's License" "Bailiff's General Certificate" (which should have been issued at a County Court) and the Liability Order, as it is a legal requirement that he has both upon him when he attends. If he fails to produce both or tries to force entry call the Police, he is committing a Criminal Offence under section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act and the Freedom from Harrassment Bill if he cannot prove the "Liability Order" and even if he has it , it does not allow him to Force Entry. The Police have no right to "Force Entry" into your home either for what is technically a Civil Matter and even a Bailiff needs a Warrant from a Magistrate to do so. The only exception is when you have allowed him into your house, have signed a Walking Possession Agreement and then you try to stop him at a later date.

You must however appreciate that Police Officers are not given training in Bailiffing legisalation and tend to believe what the bailiff says to them. If this happens you need to take the number of the Police Officer and inform him that he is aiding and abetting a criminal offence, (attempting to obtain money by deception) and make a formal complaint to the Officer for this, that he should seek advice from a suitably qualified superior and that if he assist's the Bailiff in such unlawful action you will hold him personally liable for a claim for "Damages".

You can also complain to the local Magistrates Court regarding the action's of the Bailiff who can be held liable for "double damages" for an irregular levy and triple damages for an illegal one.

What I would do is remove the vehicle from your property so that he can't take it.

Get the details of the Court where his license was issued and make a formal complaint to the Chief Clerk and object to him holding a Bailiff Certificate.

Contact BBC Watchdog.

Contact the Council in writing (Recorded Delivery) stating that if they don't remove the Warrant you will sue them, as the Bailiff's have made unlawful fraudulent charges with regard to the attendance of the van.

Go and see the CAB and get their duty Solicitor to formalise a complaint for you.

 

 

i owe £810 in council from this year.

i have had money trouble all year since being hit my the csa by my ex partner.

 

about 5 weeks ago a bailiff called from rosendales regarding my council tax.

i did not let him and told him to go away.

he put a wpa through my door with my car down on. it

 

my mum gave me £650 to pay towards the debt which i did.

i contacted them to tell them i was paying £650 straight away but i would not have the out standing which is £160 until the end of the month(march)

 

monday i come home form work and find a letter to say final notice before removed of goods and i now owe £270.

 

i phoned the bailiff to find out why i now owe £270 and that it is not the end of the month yet.

i was told van charges.

now i know no van turned up i ask my neighbours.

he was saying he will remove my goods and i started panic.

 

i when on the manchester city council website and paid the council online to them in full without the van charges.this was on monday

 

so now i do not owe the council anything.

a neighbour said a van turned up tuesday when i was in work.

 

i contacted them again and said i do not agreed with this charge.

they have only been once.

pay it they told me.

i have not told them that i paid in full to council

 

they said if i don'y pay the £110 the bailiff will call again.

told them i will not let them in which they replied they will then call with the police to break in.

 

i did transfer my car over to my fiancee

 

is there anything they can do now with this £110 and what is the best thing to

 

i am getting people telling to just ignore them

they will stop in the end

 

 

what can you advise me on this

[Guest Herbie]

He has not levied on goods therefore he cannot charge a levy fee !!!

[Saffronflowers]

The CAB do not have a duty solicitor - they do have a list of local solicitors though, and they also have a lot of experiance in dealing with bailiffs and different bailiff companies.

 

SFx

[bytor]

Now someone correct me if I'm wrong with regards to seizing someones car, but I read on here a while ago that if you are self-employed they cannot size your car. This can easily be achieved by setting up a sellers account on e-bay. You then need to write to the bailiff's telling them you're self-employed and that you use the car to take parcels to the post office.

[basil010]

Sorry you are wrong.

A Bailiff may not levy on "tools of the trade" which would stop you from earning a living. An example would be a Driving Instructirs car or a Taxi/Minicab drivers vehicle, but using the car to take the post to the post post office does not constitute a tool of the trade. You can walk, cycle or catch a bus for this purpose.

[basil010]

Yes,

The charge is for a percentage of the debt as advised on other replies and fis payable once the seizing of the goods has taken place, there is an additional charge for issuing a W.P.A. based on a daily rate.

 

 

can i just check this is right

can a bailiff charge a levy charge if i did not sign a walking possession agreement

[bytor]

Sorry you are wrong.

A Bailiff may not levy on "tools of the trade" which would stop you from earning a living. An example would be a Driving Instructirs car or a Taxi/Minicab drivers vehicle, but using the car to take the post to the post post office does not constitute a tool of the trade. You can walk, cycle or catch a bus for this purpose.

 

Ok, but we're not talking about letters, if you have several parcels to post you might not necessarly be able to take them on the bus. If you live in a small village like myself with the nearest post office five miles away it is more difficult? There was a thread posted up a couple of months ago on this subject.

Maybe someone else read it?

[basil010]

Sorry "The Watcher" you are wrong on this one.

The Bailiff can only seize goods that "belong to the debtor" and the Law is very clear on this, there is no "right to presume" at all.

If goods are seized that do not belong to the debtor the owner of the goods has the right of redress against the Bailiff by way of a third party ownership claim.

It is fair to say however that if a Bailiff is informed that goods do not belong to the debtor then it would be expected that some sort of proof or details of ownership should be given to tha Bailiff, which he is then required to verify.

Should he not wish to verify these details and continue with seizure of goods and ultimately the sale of them, then he will be personally liable for the value of the goods either on a double or triple indemnity basis and quite rightly so.

 

Thanks, Herbie ... like I said earlier - How do you prove a negative?

[basil010]

Sorry again,

but even if you are running a small business from home which needs parcels being sent, you can always have them collected by the P.O. or Parcel Force, seizure of the car does not stop you running a business.

 

 

 

Ok, but we're not talking about letters, if you have several parcels to post you might not necessarly be able to take them on the bus. If you live in a small village like myself with the nearest post office five miles away it is more difficult? There was a thread posted up a couple of months ago on this subject.

Maybe someone else read it?

[Saffronflowers]

Basil - here is one re a car - my girls go to school 7.5 miles away, there is no direct bus or train services, being without a car would mean that they would miss school, also my eldest has a life threatening disease, how would that stand, only hyppthetical

 

Sfx