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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
       
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
       
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
       
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
       
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
       
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
       
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
       
       
        • Thanks
    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
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    • Hermes lost parcel.. Read more at https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/422615-hermes-lost-parcel/
      • 49 replies

Mr Pudsters14 vv American Express


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Well, sent off Mr Pudster's SAR and CCA request and they (AE) have returned both statements and an application form, so executed agreement. Will post on the application form for you to view but as far as I can see it is missing some of the prescribed terms. Have sent them a letter to say what they have sent is not acceptible and that they have until the 5th April to comply... let's just see! :o

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Right there you go... comments would be appreciated!

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Okay update time... I have today received as a result of my letter stating that what they had sent me was merely an application form and a copy of the executed agreement would be much appreciated etc... etc... think i stole the letter from Zubo?!? Thanx Zubo! Anyway... they have now sent me a copy of a blank card mailer which doesnt actually have my husbands name etc on there.. it's just an example and an actual 3 page CCA agreement which has all the prescribed terms etc as far as I can see... but... guess what..... it's not signed! Righto folks now I need your advice,... I will be referring to Zubos thread but any other ideas? I can also upload if you require!

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Hi

The copy requested should be a true copy of the executed one but without the signature box accorcing to the cca. I would dispute that this was a copy of your executed agreement. Since you signed in 2004 it is more likely to be a current one and since the regs have changed it would be a good idea to examine it and see if it applies to the 2004 regs which were implemented in 2005 if it does it is unlikly to be a copy of your orriginal. Check the 2004/1482 agreement amendment doc it's on the web or if you like i will send you a link if any of those ammendments appear on the document than it is unlikely to be a true copy. I have used this method to rubbish a Capital One so called copy agreement which was supposedly pre 2004 and caught the creditors with their pants down because how can a pre amendment agreement contain 1482 ammenments?

If this doesn't work out i would deny that it is a true copy anyway because it would be impossible for you to verrify it after all this time without seing a signature. Surely if they have the orriginal it would save a lot of trouble and court expense if they were to send it.

 

Best

Regards

 

Peter

  • Haha 1

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Hiya Peter,thanx for your response, I will have a look at that at the bottom of the card mailer it says 09/06, whether this is a ref or a year I don't know... actually on closer inspection this isn't one from 2004 as the charges levied don't match up... this quotes an 8 pound fee, whereas until recently it was 25 pound... right got them now, will draft a letter and get it posted 2mrw... am just going to look at that document you stated above... thanx again!

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Pudster

 

Just posted this on my Amex link:

 

Pudster

 

You need to do exactly the same as me - steal my last letter - except use whichever DCA they are using instead of Newmans. Just be prepared for them to start hassling you.

 

Z

 

Peter

 

You are quite correct, but my belief is that its better to acknowledge the receipt of what they sent as a true copy and point out the wee small problem you have with it....

 

Z

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Pudster

 

Just posted this on my Amex link:

 

Pudster

 

You need to do exactly the same as me - steal my last letter - except use whichever DCA they are using instead of Newmans. Just be prepared for them to start hassling you.

 

Z

 

Peter

 

You are quite correct, but my belief is that its better to acknowledge the receipt of what they sent as a true copy and point out the wee small problem you have with it....

 

Z

Hiya Zubo, they are using RMA. I have started using one of your letters, the account does not officially fall into default until 5th April... should I stop payments now or when they actually go into default? I will post the letter in a min, just making some alterations...

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Ref account: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Thank you for the documents you sent me, which I received on the 27.03.2007.

I acknowledge receipt of the true copy of the agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Regrettably, this agreement has not been signed by me nor have I ever seen it before. The document will be filed and retained in the event of any litigation though and therefore, as such, you are still in default under S77-S79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

I look forward to hearing from you within the stipulated time limits as my original request was sent on the 16th March 2007. After this time if you do not comply with my request for, a true copy of the signed executed agreement - with ALL the prescribed items as specified by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, I will cease payments and take further action.

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Ref account: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Thank you for the documents you sent me, which I received on the 27.03.2007.

I acknowledge receipt of the true copy of the agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Regrettably, this agreement has not been signed by me nor have I ever seen it before. The document will be filed and retained in the event of any litigation though and therefore, as such, you are still in default under S77-S79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

I look forward to hearing from you within the stipulated time limits as my original request was sent on the 16th March 2007. After this time if you do not comply with my request for, a true copy of the signed executed agreement - with ALL the prescribed items as specified by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, you will remain in default which means that it us unlawful to attempt to enforce this agreement, share data, issue a default nor sell the debt and I will cease payments and take further action.

 

I have added a bit but you might not wish to but looks good to me,

 

go for it

 

Z

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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I have added a bit but you might not wish to but looks good to me,

 

go for it

 

Z

I think the addition is great, thats what Im going to send! thanx!!!!

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Hi

 

Zubo

 

I am sure you are right but i don't understand why would you wan't to acknowlede it as a true copy when it isn't.

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Hi

Sory just re read bit slow this morning you are only acknowledging it as being a true copy of a credit agreement not yours.

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Subscribed:) Good luck with this Pudster!

 

Wxxx

Thanx Willow, will keep you informed! :)

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Hi

Sory just re read bit slow this morning you are only acknowledging it as being a true copy of a credit agreement not yours.

 

Peter

 

a bit subtle huh?

 

Z

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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  • 2 months later...

I am also in dispute with American Express who have been very selective in terms of the information that they have supplied to me under the Data Protection Act. They have also sent my account to RMAI Resolve who I have had to have my lawyer write to since they were harassing me, you can get them not to phone and only deal by letter, they are legally obliged to do this.

 

The point I am confused about is the provision of the original credit agreement. Even if they can't produce this document then you are still liable for the debt since they can prove this through the statements and spending/balance transfer records. I would be grateful for comment.

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I am also in dispute with American Express who have been very selective in terms of the information that they have supplied to me under the Data Protection Act. They have also sent my account to RMAI Resolve who I have had to have my lawyer write to since they were harassing me, you can get them not to phone and only deal by letter, they are legally obliged to do this.

 

The point I am confused about is the provision of the original credit agreement. Even if they can't produce this document then you are still liable for the debt since they can prove this through the statements and spending/balance transfer records. I would be grateful for comment.

 

Monty

 

do not confuse the issues. I do not dispute the debt, if you trawl through the main CCA threads you will understand better.

However to attempt to summarise the position:

The CCA Act obligates the creditor to provide a true copy of the agreement NOT application. Additionally I have asked to see my signature on this copy to prove that they have it.

 

They cannot - they only have an application.

Under CCA, if there is no agreement then they cannot enforce it at all. The debt however remains - it simply cannot be enforced.

 

Proof of transactions etc are useless, ALL financial business must be conducted within the strict terms of the Act and subsequent SIs (clarrification of the Act)

 

Z

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Hiya Monty. Zubo can explain it much better than me... i'm quite new! What he's said above is how I understand the process. UPDATE: I got a letter from American Express to state that they are looking into my 'complaint' and have had two letters from RMA to say that they will offer me a reduced settlement amount, did you get this too Zubo?

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Hiya Monty. Zubo can explain it much better than me... i'm quite new! What he's said above is how I understand the process. UPDATE: I got a letter from American Express to state that they are looking into my 'complaint' and have had two letters from RMA to say that they will offer me a reduced settlement amount, did you get this too Zubo?

 

I never had a reduced settlement amount but the various we are investigating letters are common.

 

The truth is that it is all b+++it, they try to break you down by wearing you down. I personally would not accept anything short of a full financial settlement and then if they have no agreement then the choice is yours how you wish to proceed.

Walk away or seek a return of all unlawful charges inc interest.

 

Z

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To be honest I think I would just walk away once they have agreed to a full financial settlement... but there again may change my mind once i get there!

 

Need to keep on at em, will keep you updated and will post replies etc for you to see.

 

Thanx Zubo

 

Pudsters14

x x x x x x x

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Dear Zubo

 

Thank you for your comments. I have been reading this site for days now and just getting to grips with "the process" and some of the amazing settlements. It seems to me that in many cases with Banks and DCA's, that you have to show you have teeth by getting them either to court or to disclosure before they settle for the FULL amount?

 

I would just be interested to know the situation (if there is any precedent) where a person has a CCA which is not properly executed and takes this before a court. There is one thread that suggests the CCA does not have to be signed and there appears to be contradictory comment on what exactly the position is with regards to a CCA application and contract since some appear to double-up.

 

If you went to go to court and disputed the contract was valid and hence unenforcable (potentially) then would the Bank and/or judge view that you still had a debt by virtue of the credit card statements they could produce?

 

I would appreciate views on the above.......

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Dear Zubo

 

Thank you for your comments. I have been reading this site for days now and just getting to grips with "the process" and some of the amazing settlements. It seems to me that in many cases with Banks and DCA's, that you have to show you have teeth by getting them either to court or to disclosure before they settle for the FULL amount?

 

I would just be interested to know the situation (if there is any precedent) where a person has a CCA which is not properly executed and takes this before a court. There is one thread that suggests the CCA does not have to be signed and there appears to be contradictory comment on what exactly the position is with regards to a CCA application and contract since some appear to double-up.

 

If you went to go to court and disputed the contract was valid and hence unenforcable (potentially) then would the Bank and/or judge view that you still had a debt by virtue of the credit card statements they could produce?

 

I would appreciate views on the above.......

 

Monty,

 

There has been some success with a number of cases I am aware of. The real problem is that the cases has been in the county courts and none of the outcomes can be used as precedent for other cases, so you are at the mercy of how you present your case and the interpretation of each judge.

 

Some of the Act can be a little confusing if not very carefully explained, as you have indicated.

 

Very many CCPs and DCAs are completely off the mark in their understanding of the Act and a few believe that compliance is satisfied by providing simply an unsigned copy of an agreement. I have a very clear understanding of what I will tell a judge about an enforceable agreement and that includes the requirement for both signatures.

 

As to your comment regarding the judge/Bank and debt, the answer is quite simple. A properly executed agreement for credit cards or loans regulates the entire life of a debt. It stipulates precisely what should or should not happen to the debt under different circumstances. It gives the Creditor a variety of rights - to sell or assign the debt, to cancel the agreement, to share information re the debt. Similarly it gives you a range of rights too. When the agreement becomes completely unenforceable - either because the Creditor has no copy or he has no copy signed by YOU then the debt still remains but becomes unenforceable at ALL. In other words the Creditor and you lose all rights under the agreement. That is how I interpret it.

 

Unfortunately, with the way things currently stand we mostly have Mexican Standoffs, however there is a great deal of development activity underway elsewhere where the intention is to produce better strategies in dealing with this.

 

Z

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Dear Zubo

 

Many thanks for taking the time and trouble to explain this, your excellent advice and opinion is very much appreciated!

 

With kind regards

Monty

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  • 1 month later...

Dear Pudster

 

Your application is the same in format and terms as the one I have for a Platinum card, these are NOT agreements under the 74 Act and could never to enforced as such. Hold out and offer a settlement as I am doing, tell RMA/NCO to bog off and inform Amex that you are willing to enter into a compromise settlement in relation to this alleged debt.

 

Amex will have difficulty selling it on since I am sure the DCA's are now wise and ask to see the CCA (I would if I was one?!) and given it is in dispute they are left with a pup anyhow so it is not going anywhere except court. In this scenario, they would have to produce the CCA in pre-disclosure as well as in court. I am sure their lawyers would not wish to try this.

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