Domf vs HSBC Business AC

[Domf2002]

Dear All

Am putting together claim for business charges refund against the worlds favourite bank. Charges are from 2002-2005 and total 23K. Also have a loan which we took out to repay overdraft part of which was caused by these charges, so I'll be attempting to reclaim a percentage of the interest on this.

 

Have sent initial charges schedule to HSBC using the compound interest table (all 12 pages of it), and will await reply. Will send a second set of charges with the LBA to explain that I'll be claiming for loan interest as well.

 

Will keep you posted,

 

Domf

[nettyg]

omg... is this because of sleepless nights dom

[Domf2002]

Hi Netty

 

No my business and the attitude of both Lloyds and HSBC has caused me plenty of sleepless nights over the last 14 years.

 

I now have a 10 week old son who has just started sleeping through the night (horrah) and who hopefully will be less costly to deal with over next 18-30 years (though actually I'm not sure of that...)

 

Thanks for your PM as well. Will bend your ear as this progresses no doubt..

[nettyg]

no i'm sorry.... the bit about the baby being less costly lol

dunno where you got that information from hahaha - i have two sons, 17 and 12 who 'bleed me drier than the sahara' (worth it though!)

[Domf2002]

We've just had one of these new government saving schemes where you receive £250, to be invested for 18th birthday. It is a lovely idea, but kind of makes you wonder what it will buy you in 18 years time. We've haven't decided where to save this yet, but funnily enough the HSBC savings acoount wil not be an option.

[TUTTSI]

Hi Dom,

I have already started letter writing on claiming on a business account for my o/h against HSBC, just at the LBA stage. You have to be very carefull I believe not to include the Consumer Credit Act, as this does not apply to Business acoounts. If you search the forum, you will find some help, but I believe it still in it's infancy.

Good Luck with your claim, did also claim for overdraft charge per day!

DS

[Domf2002]

Thanks for that, I used the standard business prelim letter on the site. What I will do with the LBA is add in a proportion of the interest from a loan that we took out to clear the O/D. I calculate that at the time the O/D was made up with £4K from charges, so this will swell the size of the claim. Also received a standard letter from the HSBC today saying they are looking into the claim.

Hadn't realised about the CCA bit though. Will keep everyone posted if this adds to the 'font of knowledge' for business accounts:)

[Domf2002]

I have used this as my LBA for HSBC. It includes a section where I have told the HSBC about the interest I am going to reclaim on a business loan. Does this look OK. It's a modeified LBA from the main files

 

 

Thank you for you letter of the 25th March 2007. I do not feel that this is a genuine attempt to resolve this matter of the regime of fees which you have been applying to my business account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law and contrary to Statute.

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated the account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary. I have amended my claim to reflect interest pad on a £60,000 Business loan (A/c 92278278 S/c 40-36-22). I have added 1/15th of the interest charged on this loan as there was balance of approximately £4000 unlawful fees at the date of the loans commencement.

 

I calculate that you have taken £20929.84 plus £2766.35 which you have charged me in overdraft interest for the sum which you have taken. Total £23969.19

 

 

I require repayment of this money. If you do not return it to me in full within 14 days, I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest, plus my costs, without further notice.

 

[TUTTSI]

Hi Dom,

What rate of interest did you use? £2,766.35 on almost £21K seems pretty low to me! They will probably make an offer which will be well below what you are looking for. Did you use one of the spreadsheets from this site!

My O/H has already had an offer made of £1100, which is very little against his claim which is in total under just under £3K. The claim has been transferred to their Head Office. We will do the rejection letter on Thursday.

DS

[Domf2002]

Hi

I used the XL Advanced spreadsheet from section 6 interest calculation. The 8% interest added on to this claim should the HSBC not settlein full is £8000. Also I had a good deal in the first year of my bus acc, things when spectacularly wrong when are O/D was reduced.

 

I could have calculated this incorrectly though but I'm sure I've followed the right steps,

 

Thanks

 

Dom

[TUTTSI]

Thanks Dom,

[Domf2002]

Good news. Wife has won £170 on Grand National and I had a letter from HSBC making on offer on the business account of £ 12412, which I'm going to reject, as it's £10,000 short of initial charges.

 

However god bless the HSBC, they're not making the offer becuase they are wrong, or the charges are just plain immoral..no they're doing it

 

" mindful of the management time and irrecoveralbe legal costs that it may incur in relation to such a claim. For those commercial reasons alone, and without any admission of liablility whatsoever, HSBC is prepared to make a patment to you of £12,412, your claim to interest has been rejected, in full and final settlement of this matter"

 

My copy of the letter is quite tear stained now as I've wept at their generosity. however the next letter will tell them we're actually upping the claim to recover loan interest....I'll keep you posted.

[givememymoney]

I know it does break your heart that they are so considerate towards their managers time that they will payout thousands and thousands of pounds in order to protect it. You know I am welling up think about their kindheartedness.

[TUTTSI]

D&G their Solicitors must be so overworked, so they hopring that you would settle. Carry on with your time table they will cave in in the end, it is just a matter of time.

DS

ps Congrats on the the Grand National win, mine all fell before the end.

[Domf2002]

Sorry that I've been away for a while but a lot has happened and on this reclaim I now won this case (for the moment) as the HSBC forgot to post a defence......

 

Anyhow on 26th October I am due at court as HSBC are claiming that they forgot and they need a second chance et etc. Any suggestions as to the strategy for finally getting my cash back

 

 

This is the letter from DG Solicitors

We enclose a copy of our N244 Application Notice to have the Default Judgment dated 30 August 2007 set aside , together with enclosures.

Application Notice dated 7/9/07

Part A

We, DG Solicitors, on behalf of the defendant, HSBC Holding Plc intend to apply for an order ( a draft of which is attached) that the Default Judgment dated 30 August 2007 be set aside

Because

As a result of an administrative error a defence to the Claimant’s claim was not filed within the stipulated time period.

Part B

I wish to rely on

Evidence in Part C in support of my application

 

Part C

We wish to reply on the following evidence in support of this application

1. The Claimants claim form was issued on 1 June 2007 and served upon the Defendant at 8 Canada Square, London E14 5HQ
   
2. On June 12 2007, an acknowledgment of service noting the Defendant’s intention the defend the claim was lodged with the Court
   
3. As a result of an administrative error, a defence to the claim was not filed withing the stipulated period for response.
   
4. Default judgment was entered for the Claimant on 30 August 2007
   
5. Whilst it is acknowledged that a defence should have been filed within the time period allowed, the error has arisen purely as a result of an administrative error.
   
6. The Defendant has a good defence to the claim. Attached to this application is a copy of the defence which the Defendant would intend to file, properly verified by a statement of truth.
   
7. Because of the high value of the claim, the Defendant will suffer significant prejudice if the Judgment dated 30 August 2007 is not set aside.
   
8. In light of the above, we respectfully request an Order as follows

1. Default judgment dated 30 August to be set aside

1. This application is made with due consideration to CPR Part 1 relating to the overriding objective

 

 

 

 

 

 

Defence Statement

1 The Claimants account is governed by the Defendants personal and/or business banking terms and conditions

2 Pursuant to the Defendants terms and conditions the defendant is entitled to make a charge for its services as set out in the Defendants price list, including an overdraft review fee for considering whether to provide and providing an overdraft

3 The Defendant denies that the charges applied to the Claimants account amount to penalties at common law and/or unfair contract terms for the purposes of the Unfair terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (UTCCR’s)

4 The charges applied to the Claimants account are reasonable and are properly and fully disclosed in the Defendants terms and conditions and published price list. The charges represent the contractually agreed price for the services provided and the UTCCRs are not applicable to them; alternatively, they are not unfair contrary to the UTCCRs. Further, the charges are not default charges and, accordingly, cannot amount to a penalty

5 Save as set out above. Each and every allegation made by the Claimant is denied. For the reasons set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or an relief.

[TUTTSI]

Hi Dom

My hubbys business claim with HSBC was recently settled in full and the settlement came from DG on their own motion, well before any bundles needed to be prepared and the letter arrived with the settlement just after our court blanket stayed all claims.

 

Try and call DG Solicitors and ask them to settle as they have settled other business claims as as this is not part of the OFT test case they will settle.

 

Good luck and keep us advised.

DS

[TUTTSI]

Dom, one further point did your POC follow the strict guidelines for business claims and not rely on the UTCR's.

 

From looking at their defence they have relied on this in see para (3) on the defence statement which for business claims is totally wrong.

 

DS

[Domf2002]

DS my head hurts:)

 

 

Just to say I have got the judgement and been awarded the full claim plus interests and costs. DG are now claiming that they forgot to defend as an oversight and that this case should not be paid out as they would have defended etc etc. not sure what docs I will need to take to court if I have been awarded claim unther than to refute the fact that it will cause the HSBC some gigantic loss. I forget the term but their covering letter nearly made me weep:)

[TUTTSI]

Dom I am really sorry that your head hurts, but it is really important that if they get this overturned it will put you back, did you make reference to the UTCCR's in your POC as they are making reference to them in their defence statment.

 

For instance if you have not made reference to the UTCCR's then their defence is crap and you should be able to get their defence overturned should the courts decide to give them a second chance. Unfortunately, the banks know how to play the court system.

 

DS

 

ps I wish your head better.

[Domf2002]

Sorry DS have been away from the site for too long, by POC i take it you mean this bit. Followed the standard format that was on one of the pages for business accounts. What do you think- thanks for your help Dom

 

 

1.The Claimant had an account XXXX7690("the Account") with the Defendant which was opened on Twelfth of April 2002 and closed around January 2006

 

2. During the period in which the Account was operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

3. A list of the charges applied is attached to these particulars of claim.

 

4. The Claimant contends that:

 

a) The charges debited to the Account are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit. b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the common law. The precedent for the law relating to contractual penalties was set in the case of Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage Motor Co Ltd (1915) AC 79. Additionally, in the case of Murray v Leisureplay (2005) EWCA Civ 963 it was held that a contractual party may only recover damages in respect of its actual loss or liquidated losses.

 

 

5. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

 

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £23969.19 and any interest charged thereon;

 

 

b) Court costs;

 

c) Interest pursuant to section 69 County Courts Act of 8% - £6681.21 continuing at 8% until judgment or settlement at a daily rate of £6.68

 

6. Alternatively, if the charges are a fee for a service, then they must be reasonable under S.15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act (1982).

 

I believe that the contents of these particulars of claim are true

 

 

[Castlebest]

Hiya Dom and yes thats the one and you have not referred to the UTCCR's (Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999 ). If DG's defence does then as DS says above its a load of Cr*p

 

The UTCCR's are the core of a personal claim against a bank but they have no baring on businesses at all so if DG have referred to them then their defence is meaningless

 

pete

[TUTTSI]

and this is the same defence that they imposed on my hubbys claim, then out of the blue they wrote settling the claim in full without the need to go to court. It is really your choice on how you want to proceed.

DS

[Domf2002]

Thanks for both of your thoughts on this. Are there any documents I need to submit to court, as i understand that normally these have to be in before hand (1 week?) Do I need to submit a copy UTTCR legislation? and as for point 2 on their list have never reclaimed overdraft 'fees' else claim would be even more.

 

I feel reasonalbe confident about this but dont want to be feeling myself incase there is something I should be doing now. As I say I have the judgement but are they claiming that we start back at step 1 and i have to submit copies to court of 650 pages of bank staements. If so I'd better get copying:)

[TUTTSI]

Hi Dom

I think you have a couple of choices:-

 

1. Write into the court and tell them that HSBC's defence is a load of nonsence, request a strike out of their defence if you don't already have this and request a judgement.

 

or 2. Phone DG and try to come to a settlement as it is a business claim and is not part of the OFT test case.

 

Unless the courts have struck out their defence and awarded you judgement - how have you won!

 

If you say you have already won, why are you sending your bundles to the court.

 

DS

[Domf2002]

Hi Ds

 

Already have a judgement order as of 28th august 2007, however the bank is appealing to have it set aside in their application notice N244

 

bacause

 

as a result of an administrative error a defence to the claimant's claim was not filed within the stipulated time period.

 

so I've already been granted judgement...but they are claiming (i assume) that they should have posted defence on time and if they had this would be it.

 

Which leaves me wondering other than stating that UTTCR is for personal not business accounts...what else should i hit them with (other than legal baseball bat)

 

Thanks again for your thoughts