johnsworld v Barclays Bank

[slick132]

SarahApples,,

 

If you still want some advice, open up your own thread and put any Q's there.

 

Go back one page and hit the "new thread" button.

[juicyd]

Sarah! That is DISGUSTING. I cannot believe they tried to hoodwink you like that. Please bring the letter to Court and show it to the judge! If you download the bundle from the sticky in the general forum and also the stuff on the thread called 'stays -info and guidance' you will have the bulk of what you need. Good luck! Johnsworld, commiserations on your daughter's stay but it sounds like you did a brilliant job. To be honest, the judge sounds like she copped out of doing what she wanted (refusing stay). There is no way that banks would have the right to appeal your claim if they won the test case. there are time limits for appeals! Please would both you and Sarah mind saying which court you are in as I'm in Clerkenwell court this week and there is NO information anywhere about what is happening there with these claims. thank you

[Johnsworld]

Hi Slick and Johnny,

I didn't thank you for you emails of encouragement after we lost in court but I want you to know it meant a lot that you took the trouble. I don't know if my daughter is proud of me or not but I'm proud of myself . I know she appreciates the time and effort I put into the case in the last twelve months but I'm annoyed to be pipped at the post. Your support and encouragement leading upto the hearing was so helpful and reassuring and gave me the backbone I needed to take them on.

Juicy, sorry if my write up was sloppy but it was a man Judge. If what you say is true about an appeal that is really annoying. As I said in my earlier post though, he did refer to every one of my objections in summing up, so I can't say he didn't consider my evidence.

For those of you wondering, my hearing was at Luton. I see I was one of the lucky? ones as I heard all cases were stayed from last Friday.

 

Well, thanks again guys/girls for your posts. I'm relieved that I won't have to think about legal arguments and try and second guess the bank for a while, but what am I going to do with all the spare time I've got now?

 

I hope somebody can think of something to occupy us CAGers until January.

 

I'll be checking in from time to time.

 

Regards,

John.

[johnnymitch]

Thanks John, - Have a well-earned rest, -

 

Dip in from time to time to see what's happening. We're not finished yet by a long chalk!

 

Cheers Mate, you did well.

[slick132]

Hi John, The thanks aren't nec'y.

 

It comes around and goes around _ i've had great help and inspiration from peeps here it's only natural to keep that going.

 

Keep an eye here for what's happening and I'm sure you'll have your day with Barclays. Glad to hear you're proud of how you did and I'm sure your daughter is too.

 

Slick

[SarahApples]

Please would both you and Sarah mind saying which court you are in as I'm in Clerkenwell court this week and there is NO information anywhere about what is happening there with these claims. thank you

 

I'm in North Shields Court in North East of England - on thursday - GULP! But Good luck to you too and thanks for your support!

[Johnsworld]

Sarah,

 

Have a read of my thread about court if you've not done already. It really isn't as scary as I thought, or you think.

 

It's a bit like going in to see the headmaster, but if you are a litigant in person he will be more on your side because he has a duty to protect you.

 

Don't discuss the case with the defence before you go in and don't give them anything until you get in there. They may try and intimidate you but don't let them. Take it as a sign that they are worried and go for it.

 

Good luck. It will be great if you win. If not try and get some concessions, like no more penalties or interest for the duration of the stay.

 

Regards,

John.

[JackG]

Well done John, just read your thread from a link sent to me and I think you did absolutely great. Yes, your daughter should be very proud of you!

 

Er..... what you doing 23.8.07 as I may need someone to speak for me in case I freeze.............its my date in court and am definitely not looking forward to it at all. so if you've nothing else better to do Thursday?..........

 

 

 

best wishes

[jansus]

John

 

Well done you tried everything possible and thank you for your comprehensive thread

 

I will be doing the same thing on 28th and now am wondering what else I can say to persuade the judge.

 

This is new for all of us and such pot luck as to which judge you have.

 

I will be trying exactly the same arguments you did and can not think of anything else you could have done. Well done and hope it all comes through for your daughter in the end.

 

jan:)

[Johnsworld]

Hi Jack and Jansus,

 

I've been having a hard time since the case. I think I could have done more, especially when I see objections to stays being successful and cases being won as a result. I really thought the fact that the bank hadn't complied with the directions of the court would have mattered and that the Judge would have thrown out their defence. I also see that other Judges have decided for the claimant on the basis of exactly the same CAG template and that's been hard to take.

 

Anyway, you've got a shot at it now and I've been thinking what I'd do differently. Jack, I've read you own thread and wonder when you say you haven't received the banks defence whether you mean their defence or their bundle. It's important in deciding tactics.

 

Just let me know and I'll get back to you. Seeing you win would make up for my disappointment!

 

Thanks, John.

[jansus]

Dont give yourself a hard time. The stay may still yet be reviewed if there is enough pressure. And its not the end yet - it just means that getting the money might be delayed. I wonder if that means your 8% is still accumulating.

 

You did your best and as it all depends on the individual judge I guess the decision had been made before you went in.

 

 

I will let you know how I get on.

Jan

[tezl]

hi, gets more ridiculous by the day.perhaps i have missed something in press,but surely if a sustained story about the inconsistancy of the judges in their judgements was brought to bear something might happen.the fact the majority are letting the banks get away with obusing us and the courts.perhaps their contiance,spelt that wrong,might come to life.just thought might be reading more about this in papers.tez

[Johnsworld]

A special hi to Jan and Jack,

 

I don't know when your hearings were going to be so I thought I'd better mail you my thoughts on what I'd add to my evidence if I could do it again.

 

Jack, I just read that your case has been stayed so unless you intend to contest it I guess this won't apply.

 

Jan, if your still in the game I am assuming the bank has not (will not) submitted a bundle. I also assume that allocation questionnaires were dispensed with. If that 's the case the first thing I would do is inform the Judge of the banks failure to comply. I'd tell him but you could let him read it if you are nervous. It's not likely to make much difference to your case but it will be a point to you. Couldn't find template but this is what I used:

 

I, the Claimant, refer to the claim as detailed above and specifically the order made by District Judge __________ dated _______ 2007.

 

I wish to inform the court that the Defendant has not complied with the order in that it has not served upon me the evidence, or any such documents, upon which it intends to rely at the forthcoming hearing.

 

I wrote to the defendant's Litigation and Disputes Team on _________ to request that it serve the Defendant's documents at its earliest convenience. I have received no response to this correspondence.

 

I can confirm that my documents were filed on ___________ 2007 and served to the Defendant on __________2007.

 

It is submitted that the Defendants non-compliance creates a significant imbalance between the parties in light of the forthcoming hearing, which I believe to be contrary to the overriding objective. This imbalance is particularly exacerbated by the fact that the Defendant is represented by specialist solicitors, whereas I am a litigant in person. (I'd delete this paragraph I think, especially if I was going to request the case be struck out.)

 

Given that the Judge is unlikely to chuck out the case on failure to comply with directions I'd use the template letter that follows, removing any references to an allocation questionnaire, specifically asking the Judge to strike out the defence. It is pretty heavy weight stuff but I think it's a case of nothing to lose now. Don't forget to print out the evidence to back it up.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclays-bank/97169-aq-strike-out-application.html

 

If that fails you'll need to use the objection to a stay template on the following link:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/17065-application-removal-stay-updated.html#post1046820

 

Lastly, if you are on benefits or have been while the bank has been taking your money, Section 187 of the Social Security Act 1992 and

Section 45 of the Tax Credit Act 2006 states that people on these income related benefits have an inalienable right to their money. What this means is that banks - or any other company - has NO right to this money and you can object to the stay because your claim is not based on consumer law but is in fact based on benefit law.

 

Well, that's my advice. I'm no lawyer so maybe you might check it out with a mod or maybe someone will have a different view. The way I see it the court will be minded to agree to a stay and it will have to be something pretty heavy to stop them.

 

Good luck,

John.

[JackG]

Hi John

 

Yes, my court date was 23rd Aug Thurs, but on Saturday gone I rec'd letter from the court saying that DJ Howard on reading through my case has decided to stay my case and await outcome of OFT case and that I should reapply within one month of OFT case being decided which could be Feb 2008 or October 2008 if appeal is made whichever is soonest.

 

Last week I rec'd a standard pre-typed letter from Barclays saying they would be applying for a stay until OFT decision is made and that it would be in my best interests to allow the stay. This seemed to be a letter they would be sending out to everyone who is claiming from them!

 

my dilemma - as my case on 23rd August is now vacated (which I think they mean cancelled) I have the right to apply to have the stay lifted within 14 days from receipt of their letter on Sat gone. Do I risk another fee and another court date only to annoy the judge on time wasting as he has already reached his decision without any representation from either myself or Barclays? or do I be patient and await the outcome as he has suggested?

 

Really don't fancy court at all, either now or in future, but if, NO WHEN, OFT case is finalised in our favour, then appeal can go ahead confidently with sure outcome of getting our monies back!

 

this is a worrying time for all, especially the banks.

 

No, they have not submitted their bundle to me at all. Mine was at the court and at litigation team before deadline, I included draft order for directions which DJ will have read and therefore ignored obviously, due to his decision. Seems like a bloody waste of time at the moment. How does one proceed? Really not sure at all.

 

Anyway, like Jansus says earlier, don't give yourself a hard time, you did really well =, you should be proud of yourself, I know I felt full of admiration for you when I read your story - good for you!

 

best wishes JackG

[Johnsworld]

Hi Jack,

 

It's good to hear from you and I understand your dilemma because it's damned annoying to feel they've got away with it but I think they have.

 

I reckon that the test case will go against the banks but I'm concerned that the judgement might set a high figure on what is reasonable to charge and the decision to stay cases is going to cost us because we would probably have got it all if the bank had settled.

 

You've given it a good run as have I and everyone else but we have at best been unlucky and at worst conspired against.

 

I'd like to tell you to take them on and appeal the stay but commonsense says don't.

 

I'd like to thank you for your kind words as well. I wish you luck whatever you decide. I'm sure we'll prevail. It's just how long it might take that bugs me.

 

Best wishes,

John.

[Johnsworld]

I have received a General Form of Judgement or Order from court following my hearing staying my case until 31st March 2008 with a view to awaiting the decision in the test case.

 

THis is based on the fact that that a test case has been issued in the High Court between the Office of Fair Trading and certain banks, with a view to detemining issues of legal principle in relation to the recovery of charges made on bank current accounts.

 

And upon it appearing that the issues raised in the test case are similar to those in this claim.

[johnnymitch]

Until the expiry of the stay, no further penalty charges or interest on penalty charges should be debited to the Claimants accounts by the Defendant.

 

Interesting John, seems that this court has already decided that they are penalty charges.........

 

I like the direction though, if FSA had any bottle all courts could be ordering this along with stays.

Just a thought, I wonder where that leaves your right to charge 8% until settlement of the case?

[jansus]

Hi John thanks for your post.

 

The problem that I have is that the case was vacated after the defence was filed - but before the bundle was due.

 

Therefore although my bundle was ready I did not send it to the court.

 

Then I did some frantic reading up and decided to do what the website recommended and sent in the appeal form.

 

I sent in a covering letter saying" please note as the case had been vacated on the initiative of the court my bundle was ready and I would send in on a days notice if required But I will respectively await the courts final decision"

 

When i got the letter asking for my signed POC - it just had hand written - hearing 28th August 11 am.

 

When I sent that back I again offered to send my bundle - but have heard nothing.

 

I let the solicitors know what was happening but they are so RUDE - they dont acknowledge letters or emails so I dont know whether they wil be there or not.

 

So in I go on Tuesday -all I can do like you - is do my best.

 

 

Jan

[Johnsworld]

Hi Johnny,

 

You raise a couple of interesting points that I admit I hadn't considered. Fortunately I still have the spreadsheet from the date we went to court, but I'll carry on calculating interest as well. I have no idea how the courts will view it when the time comes. I think the Judge was sympathetic to our case and I'm sure he was trying to ensure the delay didn't disadvantage us. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

Regards,

John.

[Johnsworld]

Hi Jan,

I feel sure they will have somebody there for your hearing. Please do not speak to them before you go in to see the Judge. It's likely they will try and put you off, try and find out your strategy or generally intimidate you.

 

If you are opposing the stay you will need every bit of ammo you can find. You can't argue non-compliance as the bundle date never arrived but you can argue that the banks are manipulating the courts to their advantage.

 

Have a look at these bits from my original posting:

 

I'd use the template letter on the following link, removing any references to an allocation questionnaire, specifically asking the Judge to strike out the defence. It is pretty heavy weight stuff but I think it's a case of nothing to lose now. Don't forget to print out the evidence to back it up.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclays-bank/97169-aq-strike-out-application.html

If that fails you'll need to use the objection to a stay template on the following link:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/17065-application-removal-stay-updated.html#post1046820

Lastly, if you are on benefits or have been while the bank has been taking your money, Section 187 of the Social Security Act 1992 and

Section 45 of the Tax Credit Act 2006 states that people on these income related benefits have an inalienable right to their money. What this means is that banks - or any other company - has NO right to this money and you can object to the stay because your claim is not based on consumer law but is in fact based on benefit law. You can search some threads on this if it applies.

 

They will only come to argue the stay. They are so smug they probably won't expect you to argue anything else.

 

You're still in the game but you need to bat hard. You can catch them out and the look of surprise when you do is almost worth the money.

 

I wish you luck and will be rooting for you. If there's anything I can help you with or talk through don't hesitate. I'd love you to win!

 

Sincerely,

John.

[BankFodder]

I have emailed you. Please would you contact me very urgently about this order.

A copy of the order would be very helpful too

 

Also there is a high chance that the bank may wish to appeal the order so if you contact us we may be able to help you work out a strategy and give you some support

[mikefellows]

Just spotted this on the BBC... is this your case? Fair play, and congratulations!

 

A judge has stopped Barclays bank taking any more penalty charges and interest from a customer who sued for their return.

 

Judge Abrahams, at Luton County Court, has ordered Barclays to stop applying the charges until a High Court test case settles the legal issues involved.

Barclays said it will be entitled to reclaim any further charges from Nadine Fry should the test case be successful.

The five main banks have handed back almost £400m in charges since January.

Barclays itself has so far repaid £87m in overdraft charges this year.

'Not general policy'

Judge Abraham's decision is likely to be deeply disturbing to the UK's banks, in case other judges around the country adopt a similar line.

 

Luton county court's order against Barclays bank

 

 

A spokesman for the Judicial Communications Office (JCO), which speaks on behalf of judges, said: "This is not a general policy - each case is assessed on its own merits."

In the past year, tens of thousands of bank customers have been winning refunds of overdraft penalty charges from their banks, amounting to millions of pounds.

To resolve this vexed issue, the banks, along with the Office of Fair Trading (OFT), agreed at the end of July to stage in the High Court next year a test case on the legality of the charges.

The OFT believes they are an unfair and illegal penalty under consumer protection regulations.

The banks say they are a fair charge for providing a service to their customers while their accounts are in the red.

Waiver win

At the same time as announcing the test case, the banks won from the Financial Services Authority (FSA) a waiver from the current rules so that they can largely stop processing new claims against them until the legal issues are sorted out.

Likewise, the Financial Services Ombudsman (FSO) decided to stop dealing with the thousands of similar complaints it has been receiving.

The banks also asked the courts to suspend all existing legal actions against them for the time being. However, any decisions on cases that are already before the courts have been left up to local judges to decide.

 

[BankFodder]

Johnsworld - I have emailed you. I would like very much to ask you some questions about the background to this case as it may of help to others.

This is a very significant order.

We would also be very interested in knowing what barclays reaction is.

 

Please contact me

 

thanks

[noomill060]

Just heard the news on Radio 5 Live.

 

Excellent. Good work. Its a start.

[johnnymitch]

Great news John, the thin end of a massive wedge , I hope!