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Hello to all,

Once again i am in need of some help and advice.


As mentioned in another thread back in 1998/99 (got dates wrong on previous thread, sorry) i had a very mess split with an Ex and as a result got into some very serious debt problems (CSA arrears and CCRD arrears etc). These problems caused me to have to hand the keys to my house back to my mortgage lender coz i could not afford repayments.

Due to my dire financial circumstances i fell of the radar for a while as i was staying with family or friends whilst trying to prioritise my debts (CSA taking priority as they can put me in prison). Then last year i managed to get a mortgage and moved into a property. Just before christmas i received a letter from Halifax saying that they had sold my old house at auction in March 1999 and as a result i owed them £16,201.51 because the house auctioned for less than the mortgage was for (mortgage was £24,700). This means that they sold the house for approx £8,500.


I have to admit i ignored the letters innitially coz i was still in discussion with DCA regarding CSA arrears. But on 15 March 07 i received a letter from Wragge & Co (solicitors working for Halifax) saying that if settlement payment was not received within 7 days the would commence proceedings to recovery full ammount + interest and court costs.


My problem is that at this moment in time i cannot pay full ammount and i have 1 case with the CSA that is still awaiting a decision on repayments. i do not want to offer Halifax a payment only to find that the CSA want an extortionate ammount of money and me not be able to keep up agreed payments to Halifax. How should i proceed? Would Halifax really have sold the property for such a loss? Would they not have put a reserve on it at auction? How much of the £16,000 is made up of charges and am i liable for them?


Sorry this thread is so long but i would really appreciate some advice. Please help.

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There are a couple of things here. According to the FSA a house should be sold for "The best price that might reasonbly be paid". To me £8.5k is way undervalue and you should certainly speak to them about this to get their viewpoint. During the last six years, have you made any payment or has there been an acknowledgement from you in writing to them?

as this is for a mortgage shortfall, the limitation act will not help you here in regard to the principle, but s20(5) of the act states that no action should be brought more than six years from the date upon which the interest element became due.

I *think* you may have possible claim under the Council of Mortgage Lenders voluntary agreement.

I’m not 100% sure of this though, I’m trying to read up on it but I’m at work and mildly hungover.

This came in to play from 11.02.2000, if the lender contacted you before this date it will not help you out.

It states that anyone whose property was taken into possession and sold more than six years ago, and who has not been contacted by their

lender for recovery of the outstanding debt will not now be asked to pay the shortfall.

It should be known that “contact” is very different from the limitation act, a letter sent to your correct address or even a ‘phone call

Is likely to be deemed a contact, although they should really have to prove this. I checked Halifax, they are a member.

Have a look at this: www.cml.org.uk

Sorry I cannot be more help, my head is muddy lolol.

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Hi, Firstly thank you for taking time to read my long long thread.


I have not not made payment or acknowldged in writing in the last 6 years. i can't honestly remember if they have sent me anything before last year as i have been moving around a lot and concentrating on trying to get the CSA sorted. I will have a look at the link. Thanks very much.

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Hi, Firstly thank you for taking time to read my long long thread.


I have not not made payment or acknowldged in writing in the last 6 years. i can't honestly remember if they have sent me anything before last year as i have been moving around a lot and concentrating on trying to get the CSA sorted. I will have a look at the link. Thanks very much.


well if you have been moving, they would need to send stuff to your correct address for it to be deemed a contact.


i'll be back in normal mode at work on monday so will do a bit more investigating for you, in the mean time have a little look on the fsa website too. all the best :)

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Has anyone got anymore advise they can give regarding this. I am getting quite desperate now and need help with how to proceed with this. Are there any template letters i could use to find out how much of the £16,000 is charges. Am i still liable for charges or should they only be coming after me for the balance. Is there any arguement i can use because in my opinion they have sold the house for a stupidly low amount?

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Hi sequenci,

I have managed to look at most of it but i have to admit (a little ashamedly) that i didn't really understand fully what it was saying.


Hi innocenti,

I was more concerned with how to find out what if any of the £16,000 is made up of charges or interest and whether they can force me to pay the charges or interest. Also can i find out if the house was sold for £8,500 coz that seems a little cheap even at auction. My mortgage was only £24,700. I wasn't trying to get out of paying by using the 6 year limitations act coz i know that doesn't apply. I am just getting a little anxious as i am paying a very large CSA debt off (approx £15,000) and this on top would probably finish me off.



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I am thinking of sending the following letter to Wragge & Co with regard to the mortgage shortfall and would appreciate so advise before i send it.






Dear Sir/Madam

Without prejudice

Account No:

Thank you for your letter/telephone call concerning the above account.

I/we do not acknowledge the claim. Please supply me/us with a full breakdown of the balance claimed under the above account.

In order for me/us to deal with the matters you raised, I/we should be grateful if you would supply me/us with answers to the following points:

when did the arrears begin?

when was the last payment made on the account?

when was any possession order given?

when was the house sold?

what valuations were made on the property before the sale?

what costs were involved in maintaining the property during the period between the repossession and the sale?

how was the house marketed and sold and at what price?

what costs were involved in selling the property?

has a claim been made against the indemnity insurance and how much was recovered?

how has interest been calculated from the start of the arrears?

Please supply me/us with a full breakdown of the balance claimed under the above account. I/we look forward to receiving your reply as soon as possible.

Yours faithfully

(Your signature)

Is this the right letter to send and if all the information is provided how should i proceed??

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Sorry to bother everyone again but i could really do with some advice on how to approach this issue. I am not trying to dodge paying the debt but i am concerned that, with outstanding issues with the CSA, if i offer to make a monthly payment i will not be able to afford it once i get a payment figure from CSA.


I am also concerned that if it is not sorted i could be forced to sell my home and that would mean that my partner and i and my 3 year old son could be left without anywhere to live.

Please please any advice would be very helpful.


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First and foremost, you need to inform them that any contracts that exist are in dispute.


As this is a mortgage and goes back a long time, you need to make a detailed Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act 1984 / 1998. This will provide you with the necessary information to scrutinise and dispute.


You then have to make an application to the Land Registry (this is a free service online) and get the price achieved of other properties in the same area at the time your property was sold - Land Registry: Buy Land Registry Title Deeds and Plans for the UK. Also try Free Land Registry House Prices & Property Valuations- mouseprice.com.


Then check for any contracts (Mortgage Indemnity Guarantees / Insurance which were taken out against your mortgage without your knowledge.


Try and establish the interest rate applied / charging structure, and when you receive your statements, spend a bit of time going through them identifying all charges.


Then write back, and ask for a thorough explanation for each charge they need to justify each of them).


Start with the SAR (they have 40 days to respond).

Dear Sir / Madam,

Re: Subject Access Request, Data Protection Act 1984 / 1998. Current Address as above


I understand that you currently hold details of my personal and financial information within your internal record systems.

I would be grateful if you would provide the following: -

  • Full copies of all contracts which you believe exist between myself and your organisation, including copies of any documents you hold in support of same.

  • Details of the identity of any individuals or organisations who have provided you with my personal information together with copies of any letters of instruction provided by them, or any contracts entered into between yourselves and any third party, and the relevant dates to which those contracts relate.

  • Detailed copies of any statements, including any invoices, debits or credits made to my account, and, where appropriate, full details of those who carried out any work or transaction which resulted in any charge or penalty being made to my account.

  • Copies of all documents which include any of my personal or financial information including copies of any contracts or invoices, emails or computer records containing my personal information, or any records which pertain to this information

  • Full details and copies of any documents upon which you have relied, when you have provided my personal or financial information to any individual organisation or third party.

  • Full copies or transcripts of any computer logs or database records kept in relation to myself or in relation to my financial or personal information.

  • Full copies of any correspondence in postal, email or any other format which you have entered into with any individual, organisation or third party which contains my personal or financial information, or which pertains to our myself.

  • Details of all systems you currently have in place to ensure my personal or financial information is kept securely, including details of those officers who currently have control of same, and at the time it was held or provided to a third party.

  • Where any previous information or records held have been deleted or disposed of, the methods used to do so, including dates, certificates or references confirming details of destruction. Where you are unable to provide such certificates, please provide a decleration, signed by an authorised officer of your company, confirming the dates and methods of destruction of this data.

  • Full hard copy print outs of any of my personal or financial information held in a digital, magnetic or any other format which is held in any archives, backups or other storage devices / locations in a legible format.

  • Your registration number with the Information Commissioners Office.

  • Your Consumer Credit License number.

Where reference to emails is given above, these emails should be taken from your email servers or backups / archives held in a magnetic or digital format. These emails may not be present on a user’s local system, and may require the assistance of your IT department / IT providers, who you should contact immediately for their provision.

Please confirm whether you hold a physical file with details of my personal and / or financial information. If so, please provide details and dates of any instance when this file has left your control, to whom it has been communicated, the method of transportation / communication e.g. Royal Mail, courier, by hand, electronically together with any precautions taken to ensure that my information has not been lost, stolen, misplaced or made available to anybody who does not have authorised access, including those who would use my information for the purposes of identity theft, or registration with any credit agencies. Please provide a full copy of this file and confirm whether any of the documents held within the physical file are computer generated..

Under S.40 of The Administration of Justice Act 1970, if you believe you have provided my information to any organisation, agent, or individual who may have used it for unlawful purposes, you should contact me immediately, and provide full details of their identification and address, together with full details of any instructions you have provided to them. If you have forwarded or communicated my personal or financial information to any person, company, or organisation, please provide a copy of the authority, signed and dated by myself upon which you have relied prior to doing so. It is a criminal offence for yourselves, or any agent appointed by yourselves to perform any action which: - S40(a) “harasses the other with demands for payment which by their frequency, or the manner or occasion of their making, or any accompanying threat or publicity are calculated to subject him or his family or household to alarm, distress or humiliation”.

Under the Data Protection Act 1984 / 1998, as a Data Controller, you are responsible for the complete retraction of all information provided to any third party, should you be requested to do so, and have a duty to myself to ensure that any of my personal or financial information you hold is kept securely, and is only communicated to those to whom I have given my express permission / authority.

I have included a cheque / postal order in the sum of £10.00 to cover your fee for this request. If you are unable to deal with this request, you should immediately forward it to the person within your organisation responsible for Data Protection. If you do not provide the information requested within the given time limits under current Law, a complaint will be registered with the Information Commissioners Office and the Office of Fair Trading.

Yours sincerely


Then follow this up with a telephone call to make sure they have received it. Make a note of the date, time and who you spoke to.

Hope this helps


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  • 2 weeks later...

I was contacted a couple of years ago (sorry can't remember exactly when) by a Halifax saying that they expected to make a loss of approx £16,000 that i would have to pay back, but they didn't tell me the house had been sold or when it had been sold. I spoke to a gentleman and told them that i was not prepared to pay an expected debt and that they should get in touch again when they had a definate amount. Not heard anything until now.

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Please help. I am really panicking now.


I sent a letter to Wragge on the 03/04 asking for a full breakdown of the account and asking for info such as when arrears began, when last payment made, when was house sold and how much for etc. I have still not had a reply from Wragge but yesterday (Friday 13th of all days) i received a claim form from Birmingham county court.


The total amount they are now wanting has shot up from £16201.51 to £27102.44. The breakdown of that sum as follows:

Amount due at completion = £25803.20

Cost of sale = £5413.79

Total = £31.216.99

Less proceeds of sale = -£13500.00

Less subsequent payment = -£1515.48

Shortfall total = £16.201.51

Interest from date of sale to todays date @8% = £10400.93

And interest on same basis until judgement @ daily rate of £3.55.


What should i do now? As i said i have had no reply from Wragge with the info requested and i can't afford to pay back the £16000 let alone £27000.


Would i be better off going to one of these debt management companies? If so how do they work? Would i loose my house? PLease Please help. This, along with the CSA debt, is putting a massive strain on me and my family.

regards Langhar

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Langhar, take a deep breath.


I am in the same boat, and am just coming to the end of my case.


You are entitled to counter-claim. You must make the Court aware that you have requested information from the Claimants who have refused to provide it.


You are also entitled to a complete breakdown of EVERY single cost and charge made on your account.


Firstly, you should defend this claim IN FULL by filling out the section on the claim form (tick box). You have 14 days from the Date of Issue to file an Acknowledgement of Service (by simply returning the Claim Form).


Do this next week, but DON'T miss the date, but the later the better. Before you do so, ring the Court and ask them how you get the Case transferred to your local court.


Have you sent an SAR to Halifax? This is the only place you are going to get a full breakdown of any charges made.


Ask the Court if you can apply for an extension on the grounds that the Claimants have refused to justify their claim, there is a good chance it could be struck out or an extension granted to enable to receive and analyse the information they hold on you.


DON'T miss the date to file your intention to defend all of their claim as above.


If you have your information or when you receive it, scrutinise EVERYTHING. Where a charge has been made which is not explained properly, get on the phone to Halifax and ask them for an explanation.


Make a list of all people or firms to whom they have forwarded your information, and insist on a copy of your original contract. Check the contract to make sure it is a true copy of the original, and that it is an agreement and not an application (wording on the top).


On Monday, go on the Land Registry and check the free information to see what the house was actually sold for. Then go to Free Land Registry House Prices & Property Valuations- mouseprice.com and check what it's worth today.


Don't know your full circumstances, but if you have suffered any losses in the past as a result of them applying unlawful charges (regardless of when they were charged) you will be able to recover these, and may be entitled to damages.


At the very worst, an assessment will be made of your financial situation, and provided you make a reasonable offer to repay it based on your finances, nobody will take your house. BUT DON'T put your head in the sand.


Now's the time to turn around and start fighting.


Off you go Sherlock.



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Langhar, work hard ad let's turn this around so that they owe you money!! Ask for more time and then make a Counterclaim.


See my SAR above and follow it through with phone calls if you feel you are being attacked.


I've been there and fully know how you feel. Damned near killed me, but when I investigated they panicked and gave me all of my information.


Once I had them on the back foot I started hunting them, and discovered all sorts of weird and wonderful methods they use to rip off clients. To say I once placed them as being in a position of authority and trusted them, when all the time they were ripping me off.


Also look for any PPI or MIG insurance related to your accounts, solicitors charges, valuations (who were these performed by?)


Where they have made charges to your account for 'Solicitors Fees' or 'Court Fees' you are not liable for these, providing they were made AFTER an unlawful charge was applied to your account. You will then find it will snowball, and you won't be liable for any costs after this point.


If you have lost a house as a result of charges, what did you lose on sale? What was the average sale price of other houses in the area compared to the amount they sold it for? How much has the property appreciated since?


This is a good start for a Counterclaim, given that they have failed to give you the information requested.


Do they owe YOU money?



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Sorry to sound dim, but when filling out the court forms do i put in as a defence that they haven't sent requested documents.


I am not disputing that i owe anything, but I am disputing the interest charged and how much they sold the house for. What am i best to write on court forms?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi all,


Just to update you.

I have still not received any of the info that i requested from Wragge solicitors on the 3rd April. The SAR was sent to Halifax and i received a letter dated 25th April from them saying they had received my letter and they are currently processing my request.

The letter also said " Please note HBOS plc is not obliged to supply records held in paper format as they do not form part of a relevant filing system. " Is this the case? If so, how can i get paper copies of records that are held?

One more question. They are trying to charge interest from tha date the house was sold to the present day at 8%. Can this form part of my defence, as that seems like an extremly high interest rate even at todays standards?

Regards Langhar

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I just got the report from Land registry for houses sold in the same area as mine between Jan & Mar 1999 and the average house price for a semi detached property was £43,827.


My house was sold for £13,500, so can i use a defence of "Mortgagee has legal obligation to achieve the best possible price. In my opinion, looking at average prices at that time £13,500 was not best possible price."

This would also change the amouint of interest they are trying to claim for. If they had sold for above £25,000 this would have settled mortgage in full so i would have owed them nothing.


Any advice appreciated.

thanks Langhar.

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they can only claim the last 6 years interest, 8% is correct (s69 county courts act).


whether or not their paperwork is on a relevent filing ystem is up for discussion. read this:



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Your case is almost identical to my own.


Have you issued the SAR?


Did you get it back, with ALL of your information?


Have they proved you actually owe this money?


Were there any insurances on the property, in particular a Mortgage Indemnity Guarantee (MIG)? If so, the latest is these were mis-sold and those trying to reclaim them are acting fraudulently.


There is no such thing as going back six years, you may make a claim within six years FROM the date you discovered you were wronged, and go back to the date of commencement of the contract.This extends to 12 years with mortgages (please check) Limitation Act 1970 S32.


The Court document they issued, is it official? Does it have a stamp and a Case number?



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