An New One

[Miss Poohs]

to mull over.

 

Last August my mum, then 79, got on a local bus to bring herself home from the shops. She fell on the bus, was catapulted down the stair well and got trapped behind the front door of the bus.

 

The bus driver called an ambulance and tried to make my mother comfortable without moving her. Someone on the bus called my dad who made his way down to the bus from the house.

 

He arrived at the bus before the ambulance crew, so was with her from that point.

 

I was called at work and made my way to the accident.

 

By the time I got there the ambulance crew were there and had my mum on her feet - she was in a terribly distressed state.

 

The crew walked her down the steps and onto the pavement, toward the waiting ambulance.

 

The whole time she was on her feet she was complaining of pain in her shoulder and hip.

 

Two comments were made to me by the ambulance crew around this time.

 

1. Does she always walk this slowly? - she's nearly 80 for Gods sake did they want her to run.

 

2. In response to her telling them telling them her hip hurt - they said "It can't be that bad if you can walk on it"

 

My mum was taken to hospital in Glasgow where it was discovered she had a broken clavical and fractured pelvis.

 

To say I was furious was an understatment.

 

I made a formal complaint to ambulance headquarters who eventually responded to me and started an investigation.

 

The crew stated they offered my mum a seat off the bus, but my dad was adamant they did not. They also said that they tried to get me to ask for a stretcher!! At this point I more or less laughed at the ridiculous situation they were painting.

 

Ultimately they wrote to me upholding my complaint - as the ambulance crew did not obtain a diclaimer to say my mum had declined a stretcher, and that of the two fractures she had the crew failed to identify any one of them.

 

From what I've been told the crew were given a full and complete training review. During which time my poor wee mum was left in a hospital bed for 7 long immobile weeks.

 

She will never be a 100% I don't think - and has side effects of her injury.

 

Is this as good as I'm likely to get or am I missing something?

 

If you made it this far Ta - I know it's a long one

[ScarletPimpernel]

In defence of the ambulance crew, and I write as a former paramedic, it can be extremely difficult to diagnose pelvic fractures. I am aware of a case where a young woman walked away from a motorcycle accident, was seen and x-rayed in hospital, and only had her fractured pelvis diagnosed 2 weeks later when her slightly odd gait was noticed by an orthopaedic consultant as she visted her boyfriend in hospital! In older people fractures of the neck of femur are common after falls, and if the characteristic external rotation of the limb is absent it can be easy for the unwary to assume there's no fracture. It can also often be difficult to persuade patients that a stretcher is needed. The situation is generally not helped by onlookers. However, what the crew should have done is looked at the mechanism of injury (i.e. how the incident occurred); this would have given them an idea of the type of injuries to expect. They should also have taken into account the age of the patient, and then treated accordingly.

 

Alas, there also remain a few 'old school' ambulance staff whose primary aim seems to be to avoid using any energy or equipment if at all possible.

 

I suspect that any 79 year old who had suffered a fall and sustained a fractured pelvis would be likely to be in hospital for an extended period. At that age any injury is likely to have serious consequences. Additionally, all sorts of other factors can contribute to the length of stay - nursing care, treatment regime, complications, MRSA, etc., etc.

 

I think you have got the best possible outcome from your complaint - the ambulance service admitted that errors had been made and have taken steps to ensure that the crew concerned undergo further training.

[hottestchick]

I'm not really suprised at your experience, paramedics are poorly named as they get little formal training a lot of there knowledege is gained on the job. Appart from this the service is saturated with pre maddonas who should be operating more of a scoop and run service thatn wasting time with unnessessary assessment.

The NHS operates a strict complaints system and if your not satisfied you should get back in touch, I presume your mum did at least get an apology!

All the best to your poor wee mum, at least she's got you fighting her corner!

[ScarletPimpernel]

...paramedics are poorly named as they get little formal training a lot of there knowledege is gained on the job.

 

To train as a paramedic, an individual must first be a qualified Ambulance Technician. Taking, as an example (because all the trusts are slightly different), Cumbria Ambulance Service, to become a Technician requires successful completion of a 10 week full-time course followed by several months of supervised and assessed experience. The final assessment is at 50 weeks. Most ambulance services then require potential paramedics to have completed a year as a Technician before they can attempt the Paramedic entrance exam, which consists of both practical clinical tests and theory.

 

Paramedic training then consists of a further 10 weeks of intensive learning with regular assessments and clinical practice.

 

Once qualified, Paramedics undergo regular updates and refresher training.

 

Hardly 'little formal training'; it is not easy and requires a mixture of intellectual ability and practical clinical skills. There is a lot to be learnt on the job, however, and this is no bad thing. After all, it's how doctors become Registrars, then Consultants. It's the only way to see a wide variety of conditions.

 

 

Appart from this the service is saturated with pre maddonas who should be operating more of a scoop and run service thatn wasting time with unnessessary assessment.

 

I think you mean prima donna (and apart, and unnecessary). Why do you think that following proven protocols and carrying out an assessment makes a paramedic a prima donna? What is your evidence for believing that the ambulance service is 'saturated' with prima donnas? What do you think the advantages of 'scoop and run' are, contrasted to the research-proven methodology currently in use? How are you qualified to judge?

 

The NHS operates a strict complaints system and if your not satisfied you should get back in touch, I presume your mum did at least get an apology!

All the best to your poor wee mum, at least she's got you fighting her corner!

 

OP is aware of the NHS complaints system, as she used it. No doubt if she remains unhappy she will be in touch with the NHS Ombudsman.

[hottestchick]

Firstly apologies for my terrible spelling - there is no excuse for that.

 

Your reply doesn't really surprise me and somewhat confirms the opinions which i hold about paramedics ( which incidently has been formed during my extensive time working within a itu transport service and which is also held by many of the technicians and some paramedics with whom i work)

 

To suggest that 20 weeks formal training is anything but little is really stretching the definition a bit and the comparison with medical staff is insulting because, as i'm sure you are aware, their training consists of 5 years + at degree level or higher and to progress within that particular profession they have to pass several more degree level exams. What higher education level is the paramedic training at?

 

So go back to the original point i'm not sure what protocols with regards to assessment these individuals were following, bearing in mind the woman was crying in pain. OP asked for an opinion as to the settling of her compliant and i was merely informing her of the advanced routes which she could take which she claimed to be unaware of.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I suspected that you might have some sort of interest which helped to form your opinion - as indeed I have, though you don't say what you do. I see you work in ITU transport - I have some experience of this as part of CCAST. I'm still in healthcare, but no longer a paramedic.

 

I fail to see why a comparison with doctors is stretching it, in that it simply illustrates the point that experiential training is valid. I am not suggesting that the undertaking of experiential learning in addition to didactic training makes a paramedic equivalent to a doctor; that would be absurd.

 

20 weeks didactic training, coupled with the experiential element may not be perfect, but it is considerably better than the old standard for ambulance staff. Probably the only people I've ever met who'd like to see a return to those days are some very narrow-minded nurses, and technicians who couldn't hack the paramedic course. I think it compares well with the training for paramedics in many other countries, and is significantly better than many others.

 

If the NHS ambulance service was not so abused, I suspect that a) we wouldn't need quite so many paramedics and b) those we had would be better motivated.

 

The higher level education for paramedics is the degree in Paramedic Science, some also have Diplomas in Emergency and Pre-Hospital Care, which are equivalent to the DipEd held by nurses. The degree is a prerequisite for the new Emergency Practitioner qualification. Paramedics are now state registered.

 

Anyway, this is an interesting discussion, and I look forward to your answers on scoop and run versus stay and play, and why you think that the research is all wrong. I can understand there's a place for swoop and scoop - my former colleagues have to do it occasionally - BBC NEWS | UK | Treating the injured under Taleban fire

 

Returning to the OP, I agree that the ambulance staff didn't get it right, as you will see from my first post. I wasn't there, so I don't know what protocol they could have been following; but I doubt that what they were doing was in accordance with their training. As in all professions, not all are perfect. If OP's complaint resulted in them undergoing refresher training, I see that as a positive outcome.

 

ps: spelling forgiven, but I couldn't resist pre madonnas!

[Miss Poohs]

Thank you very much for your replies.

 

I suppose I did get what I wanted with regards to my complaint - an accident enquiry, and an assurance that the staff would undergo a training review.

 

It is hard to accept those short comings though - as I really do feel they had ample warning in the appearance of my mum. I suppose had it been me I would have understood their reasoning more, but under the circumstances I do feel the ambulance crew were very short sighted. Just using a common sense approach, I'd hazard a guess that any 80 yr old having a fall like my mums would be more than likely to actually break a bone.

 

My only hope is that they don't do the same thing again to some other poor old soul.

[omihexi]

Hi Pooh

 

I agree, they can be a joke. Things like that are just unforgivable. I wonder what on earth the NHS is coming to. A friends mother, at 80, fell outside St Johns Hospital in Livingston and broke her nose. They took her in, looked her over and sent her home, alone. They didn't even bother to phone her son for goodness sake!

 

Fortunately I'm a good deal younger than that, but I had a fall a couple of weeks back and landed on my nose too. It didn't break, but when I went to the doctor to complain about headaches I've been having since, he told me I had sinusitus!! Is it just me? Do I come from another planet, speak another language or what? How stupid can these people get? Oh, that's not a challenge, please, if you work for the NHS, don't take up that guantlet.

 

Hope your mum gets well soon, or as well as can be.

[emmaf01]

A bad experience must be terrible- your mother's case is so obviously awful for both her and your family, and I hope you are all doing as well as possible, under the circumstances.

 

I have a medical condition, a severe allergy which causes me to go into anaphylactic shock. Three times paramedics have saved my life, treating me and getting me to hospital as fast as possible to receive full treatment. I also had pancreatitis while pregnant, and once again, the ambulance crew helped save my and my unborn son's life.

 

I know your mother's experience was terrible, but there are marvellous people out there, working hard and making a real difference. Don't think they are all bad.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Just for Hottestchick, here is a report from the Daily Express about one of those people she calls 'prima donnas':

 

A HEROIC RAF paramedic has won a major award after leading her team through enemy fire to save 24 wounded soldiers in Afghanistan.

 

Sergeant Rachel McDonald, 25, has been named Paramedic Of The Year 2007 by the Ambulance Service Institute for her courageous actions in spring last year.

 

Rachel and her four-man team treated the French, American and Afghan troops wounded in a firefight with the Taliban and supervised their evacuation under enemy fire.

 

Within hours of getting the wounded to the safety of the British field hospital at the Army’s Camp Bastion in Helmand province, she and her team were back in the front-line.

 

Rachel, who is single and from Swansea, is now back in Afghanistan on another tour of duty. Details of her bravery emerged only after the ASI announced that she is to be presented with the award at a House of Commons ceremony next month.

 

Rachel was based at Camp Bastion last May when reports came in of “numerous casualties” during fighting with the Taliban.

 

The citation says: "On arrival at the location the helicopter deposited the medical personnel with the force protection unit to give them cover.

 

"Under hostile fire, Sgt McDonald led the medical personnel, on foot, to a small holding area where they were presented with 24 Afghan Army, French and American casualties.

 

"Due to the high threat levels, the helicopter could not remain on the ground and Sgt McDonald was advised that it would return in 10 minutes to retrieve the team and the casualties."

 

It wheeled away in a cloud of dust and, while British, French, American and Afghan troops secured the holding area, Rachel found the wounded had been given "basic treatment" by American medics.

 

But the fighting was so intense that these battlefield medics were suffering from "battle shock" and unable to give her a clear picture of the state of the casualties.

 

She designated one casualty as priority one, five as priority two and the rest as priority three.

 

The most seriously wounded soldier, a 22-year-old Afghan, had suffered gunshot wounds to the left lower chest and left flank.

 

Three others had gunshot wounds to the legs and one in both arms.

 

Others were suffering from minor injuries but all were in a state of shock.

 

Rachel supervised the evacuation with the wounded loaded onto various vehicles while she accompanied the most seriously wounded on the terrifying three minute drive to helicopter landing zone.

 

The citation said:

 

"The casualties were transferred to the helicopter, again under fire, with Sgt McDonald remaining on the ground to ensure rapid but safe transfer of each casualty and finally retrieving the medical equipment from each vehicle.

 

"Throughout the short journey Sgt McDonald recorded details of her quick assessments of each casualty."

 

On the 12 minute flight to Camp Bastion Rachel supervised further treatment, overcoming language difficulties, and concentrating on the most seriously wounded soldier and while airborne told the hospital what to prepare for.

 

The young Afghan was treated successfully before being airlifted to a more advanced hospital.

 

With the patients in safe hands, Rachel "directed her team to replenish the medical kit ready to re-deploy to another incident", said the citation.

 

"Within a matter of hours Sgt McDonald was leading her team on another mission to retrieve injured service personnel from a similar hostile environment."

 

 

Daily Express: The World's Greatest Newspaper :: News / Showbiz :: Rachel, a true heroine for our fighting troops

 

 

Nec Aspera Terrent

[demon_x_slash]

And may all gods save her for her bravery. This report shames all those who say that women can't handle being on the battlefield.

[Kurt_Hamster]

And may all gods save her for her bravery. This report shames all those who say that women can't handle being on the battlefield.

 

Exactly... but why do they insist on tidying up once the battle is finished? :o

[Guest louis wu]

I'm not really suprised at your experience, paramedics are poorly named as they get little formal training a lot of there knowledege is gained on the job

 

Prejudice borne out of ignorance I assume.

 

 

Appart from this the service is saturated with pre maddonas who should be operating more of a scoop and run service thatn wasting time with unnessessary assessment.

 

Do you know about thrombolytics? Time is critical, and a scoop and run is detromental to the patient.

 

 

ITU transport team?

Your reply doesn't really surprise me and somewhat confirms the opinions which i hold about paramedics ( which incidently has been formed during my extensive time working within a itu transport service and which is also held by many of the technicians and some paramedics with whom i work)

 

A generalisation which does nothing to support your argument. I could state that all ITU transport teams are underqualified and poorly trained. I could further state that they lack any empathy with their patients. Does this make it true? NO, and your statements are equally untrue, and insulting.

 

I assume you have never performed an IO, by the side of the road on a 3 year old? I doubt it. Were the parents relieved I was here? Well, that 3 year old is now 5, so what do you think. Was I a prima donna, I'll let you make your own mind up.

 

I assume you have never made a mistake in your work, never made the wrong assumption, never chosen an incorrect treatment? If you answer no, then I will be suprised.

 

So because of your attitude we are all tarred with the same brush. You may get the impression that your comments bother me. Well to a degree they do, but not in the way you imagine. They bother me because you simpy have no idea about my job, and yet spout off as if your an expert, and give the impression that your opinion is worth spreading.

 

As to OP comments. Your right, the crew got it wrong. They have recieved further training, and you have an apology. Do you want more? Do you want the crew sacked? Nothing can change what happened to your mum. If, as you say though, she was unsteady on her feet, (she is 80 for gods sake) why was she uptairs? Why wasn't she sitting downstairs?

 

Perhaps your anger has an outlet with the ambulance crew, when really, you have issues with the bus driver, and all the people that never stood up downstairs for your mum and gave her a seat. Yes, she is free to sit where she wants, but at 80, well we should be minimalising the risk of such accidents.

 

We are human beings, we all get things wrong from time to time, not out of spite or malace, but because of what we are. Hottestchick, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I would not dream of telling people of this forum my experiences with itu TRANSPORT teams, because even they have been known to get it wrong.

 

Please feel free to comment. I am sure many will wish to critisize my post, some will be offended, some may agree with my words. As always, however, I go home after my shift able to look myself in the mirror knowing I have done the best I can, and may have made a difference. So when it comes to critisism, thats fine so long as its constructive and relevant, otherwise, sticks and stones...etc.

 

Louis

[demon_x_slash]

Exactly... but why do they insist on tidying up once the battle is finished? :o

 

Because once women start a job, they like to finish it Duh.

 

Please feel free to comment. I am sure many will wish to critisize my post, some will be offended, some may agree with my words. As always, however, I go home after my shift able to look myself in the mirror knowing I have done the best I can, and may have made a difference. So when it comes to critisism, thats fine so long as its constructive and relevant, otherwise, sticks and stones...etc.

 

louis_wu, we're all thankful and grateful for the job that you do. Society stands or falls on having medical help at the touch of three buttons

[emmaf01]

Louis, without people like you both I and my child wouldn't be here today. I can't thank you enough for what you do.

 

I know I couldn't do it.

[Kurt_Hamster]

Can I just point out as an Ex-paramedic (M/cr 1984-1993) I'm in total agreement with both SP and Louis

[Guest louis wu]

Louis, without people like you both I and my child wouldn't be here today

 

That's all the reason I need to do my job, I'm glad your both ok:)

 

Louis

 

ps, my station is Toxteth, I wonder if you've ever been in my ambulance?

[emmaf01]

As I've had to be picked up in an ambulance in both Manchester and Toxteth/Liverpool city centre, I may have met both you and Kurt!

 

My Dad used to say I've been in so many hospitals around the country, I could provide my own comprehensive league tables!

[Lula]

I have to say that I do not like this "paramedic baching" or indeed doctor bashing, they are all highly trained staff, without whom, some of us wouldnt be here today.

 

Paramedics saved my mothers life a few years ago along with the brillaint doctors and consultants and a few of the hospitals that she was in, even though she had a fairly rare disease, her care was absolutely first rate and she has gone on to make a full recovery, since her illness, her GP has also been marvellous, most of the time, he wont let her visit him, he goes to her and does a routine health check every 6 months or so - just to make sure.

 

I cannot praise these people enough, and yes, they are human and occasionally make mistakes, but I feel that the fact that we have the health care system that we do and the many wonderful stories that I hear about health care workers, makes me think that, indeed, it is working, just too many chiefs and not enough indians is the problem.

 

So please, before people start on the old chestnut of NHS bashing, think of your life and how they have been involved.

 

I'll get me coat!