Recording telephone calls

[Guest louis wu]

Hi, can someone clarify what the position is regarding recording telephone calls.

 

My undersatanding is this...

 

You can record any call if you tell the person you are recording them.

If you are then transfered you have no obligation to tell the next person.

You can use this recording at any point in the future as evidence for any purpose.

 

If you record a telephone call, and fail to tell the person, you have NOT commited any offence, but CANNOT use that recording for any purpose other than personal reference.

 

Have I got this correct?

 

Thanks

 

Louis

[Michael Browne]

That's pretty well my understanding too, except that a judge can decide to allow them to be admitted as evidence (yet to be put to the test, of course)

[buzby]

The important bit you missed, was that to record legally YOU have to be one of the parties in the recording. If not, the Interception of Communications rules apply.

[Janet-M]

you can record any of your telephone calls as long as you are one of the parties. As a private individual you do not have to say you are recording the call.You may not let anyone else listen to the recording without the other persons permission but you may write out a transcript.

 

 

In my experience it is sometimes worth saying you are recording the call and asking them if they object as the service you then get is unbelievable and they can't do enough for you

[buzby]

In my experience if you say you are recording the call, it is counter-productive. I did this to Sky in 1995 and they flagged my account accordingly. Some 4 years later I was asked, 'Are you recording this call?', whilst others would hang up, saying the caller 'was abusive'.

[Janet-M]

In my experience if you say you are recording the call, it is counter-productive. I did this to Sky in 1995 and they flagged my account accordingly. Some 4 years later I was asked, 'Are you recording this call?', whilst others would hang up, saying the caller 'was abusive'.

 

It obviously depends who you say it to .. I have done it with many companies and have had them bending over backwards to help me ..it depends on why I am phoning and what I want the outcome to be ... sometimes if I am promised something verbally I let them know at the end of the call that I have recorded it .

[Janet-M]

thread re recording your calls

[tim2718281]

Hi, can someone clarify what the position is regarding recording telephone calls.

 

Unlikely ... there are different pieces of legislation and regulation! Oftel have issued some advice. The legal situation is that to use a phone, you must comply with the terms of Oftel's licence.

 

What the licence says is that before recording live speech, you must ensure that parties are aware that the recording is or may be taking place.

 

You can record any call if you tell the person you are recording them.

Well you can only record calls in which you are a party, but I suppose you have to be a party to tell the other person you are recording the call.

 

My reading of the advice on recording calls led me to conclude you do not have to tell anyone you are recording the call, but you do have to ensure they are aware that the call may be recorded.

 

This seems to me important: if you are calling a business which is conducted by phone, and which announces to you that calls may be recorded, I think that's adequate ... I think you can assume that the business has made its employees aware that their calls may be recorded, so there is no need for you to repeat that information. (You should record the warning,along with the call. The reason is that the licence requires you to keep a record of how parties have been informed that calls may be recorded. Of course the employee of the business does not hear that warning; but it seems to me to be evidence that the business is aware of its obligations, and therefore will have warned its employees that their calls may be recorded.)

 

I am not aware of any restriction on making the recording available to anyone.

 

(Link to commercial site removed )

 

Tim

[buzby]

Back when this was first suggested (the requirement to advise callers of your intention to record), I placed a Public Notice in the London Gazette in 1982 stating this fact. This discharged my ability to tell every person who called.

 

Secondly, when calling firms that play a CS pre-connection message, there is nothing to stop the recipient doing EXACTLY the same thing - there are solid state announcement device that offer this for consumers. Now, if your device is playing its 'We may record this call' message at the same time the callers system is doing the same thing, neither hears the message, but formal compliance is assured. How silly is this?

[tim2718281]

Back when this was first suggested (the requirement to advise callers of your intention to record), I placed a Public Notice in the London Gazette in 1982 stating this fact. This discharged my ability to tell every person who called.

 

 

There was a case in the ECHR (Halford v UK, 1997) which highlighted the issue.

 

Halford was in a legal dispute with her employer, a police force; and they obtained some information which could only have come from their listening to a phone call she made while at work.

 

She took legal action for, amongst other things, infringement of her right to privacy.

 

Following the judgement in her favour, the Home Office published a circular.

 

Home Office Circular 15/1999: Interception of non-public telecommunications networks

 

Tim

[buzby]

That was quite illuminating, but as you pointed out, that covered internal telecoms networks, not public ones. I'm also sure Industrial Tribunals have ruled against the misuse of recordings, even those made legally, where the data subject is disadvantaged.

[tim2718281]

That was quite illuminating, but as you pointed out, that covered internal telecoms networks, not public ones.

 

It covered the case of interception taking place on a private network - which is the relevant situation if you were recording your phone calls at home.

 

Tim

[buzby]

Only if you had a PABX and both sides of the conversation took place within it. This would not be the case of a call that was carried over the public network, which as the info sheet pointed out, was any licensed communications network (which includes BT, Kingston and Virgin to name only a couple).

[tim2718281]

I think you are under the misapprehension that the intercepted phone call

was between one phone on the PABX and another.

 

Tim

[buzby]

Do you want to start again? You've said recording phones at home is the same as recording calls on a PABX. I've pointed out this cannot be the case as the home phone is on the public network. The Home Office Circular wasn't relevant to anyone using the public phone network (ie 'at home'), so is irrelevant.

[tim2718281]

Do you want to start again? You've said recording phones at home is the same as recording calls on a PABX. I've pointed out this cannot be the case as the home phone is on the public network. The Home Office Circular wasn't relevant to anyone using the public phone network (ie 'at home'), so is irrelevant.

 

No, the home phone is not on the public network, any more than a PABX is on the public network.

 

Home phones and PABXs are operated by their operators under the "self-provision licence", rather than the telecoms licence applicable to public telephone networks.

 

The legislation relating to interception of phones did not include equipment such as PABX systems and home phones operated under a self-provision licence.

 

Tim

[buzby]

I think you'd better read the regulations again, you are confusing the network with the equipment. Self-provision of telephone equipment has nothing do to with the recording of calls. IT is plugged into the public network, over which you then must comply with the rules as laid down. A PABX to PABX call, carried on internal wiring or private circuits is not deemed to be on a public network, and therefore the Home Office recommendation apply.

[Janet-M]

quote Bankfodder

There is nothing to stop you recording a call as long as you do not tamper with equipmemt which is not yours i.e. BT telephone lines.

There is no need to give warnings that the call is being recorded.

There is no confidentiality in the call unless you have agreed with the other person in advance or there are other circumstances which make it clear that the conversation is subject to a duty of confidenatiality.

If you overhear someone else's call which is clearly of a confidential nature in circumstances which are clearly intended to be confidential then there is confidence in the recording.

 

There have been suggestions in other threads on this forum that warnings must be given. This is wrong.

T

The recording and monitoring of telephone calls is governed by a number of different pieces of UK legislation, according to Ofcom, the telephone industry regulator.

It is not illegal for individuals to tape conversations providing the recording is for their own use, under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA).

It is a civil, not criminal, matter if a conversation or e-mail has been recorded and shared unlawfully.

If a person intends to make the conversation available to a third party, they must first obtain the consent of the person being recorded.

above from here

 

Can I record telephone conversations on my home phone?

 

Yes. The relevant law, RIPA, does not prohibit individuals from recording their own communications provided that the recording is for their own use. Recording or monitoring are only prohibited where some of the contents of the communication - which can be a phone conversation or an e-mail - are made available to a third party, ie someone who was neither the caller or sender nor the intended recipient of the original communication. For further information see the Home Office website where RIPA is posted.

 

Do I have to let people know that I intend to record their telephone conversations with me?

 

No, provided you are not intending to make the contents of the communication available to a third party. If you are you will need the consent of the person you are recording.

full thread discussing it here

[tim2718281]

Self-provision of telephone equipment has nothing do to with the recording of calls.

 

I have asked Ofcom to send me a copy of the Self Provision Licence.

 

This is the licence under which home phones are operated, and which contains explicit statements about recording calls.

 

Tim

[buzby]

I don't see what OFCOM can bring to the table, as 'home phones' have nothing to do with the ability to record two-way conversations. Telephone Answering Machines do, and the delightful 'beep' tone OFTEL suggested was a mandatory requirement for any similar device attached to the public network. Of course, it is possible to record a telephone call using an audible link so that no physical connection is required, and therefore comes outwith the scope of OFCOM.

[tim2718281]

I don't see what OFCOM can bring to the table, as 'home phones' have nothing to do with the ability to record two-way conversations.

 

OFCOM issue the licence which allows you to use your home phone.

 

One of the clauses in the licence is said to be:

 

"(7.3) The Licensee shall make every reasonable effort to inform parties to whom or by whom a Live Speech Telephone Call is transmitted before recording, silent monitoring or intrusion into such Call has begun that the Live Speech Telephone Call is to be or may be recorded, silently monitored or intruded into. "

 

Notice that this says nothing about whether the equipment used for recording is physically connected.

 

When I have obtained a copy of the licence, I will check whether the above is correct, and whether it is generally applicable or only in certain contexts.

 

Tim

[buzby]

What? I can assure you OFCOM have not licenced my phone. Indeed, neither did OFTEL, as it was bypassed by a system quaintly called 'grandfathering'. This meant that the recently introduced 'Marking Orders' which comprised of a Green Circle (OK) and Red Triangle (Non OK) had to be attached to all equipment that otherwise would be connected to the public telephone network. This was eventually scrapped by OFTEL, and OFCOM did not reimpose the condition, so I think you are reading far to much into their ability to become involved in the matter of CPE (Customer Premises Equipment).

 

So, without any requirement for an OFCOM licence (call centres, however is a different ballgame, and it is to this that you are investigating), private users can carry on regardless.

[tim2718281]

What? I can assure you OFCOM have not licenced my phone.

 

No, they have licensed *you*. The self provision licence is a class licence for all end users of equipment connected to the public telephone network. (At least, that's what Ofcom say.)

 

You are required to have this licence under the Telecommunications Act 1984. (section 1 part 4 defines telecomms systems, and the definition includes your home phone; section 5 part 2 states licensing requirements for telecomms systems.)

 

Of course, the licence is issued automatically to anyone with phone equipment conected to the public network, so most of us are unaware of it. However, it does contain restrictions - some of which are to do with recording phone calls.

 

So, to sum up: the relevant laws and regulations are relating to our recording phone calls are, I think:

 

Telecommunications Act 1984 and associated Self Provision Licence

 

European Convention on Human Rights and associated UK law

 

Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act

 

When I get the copy of the SPL, I expect to be able to quote the parts requiring warmings when calls are recorded.

 

The ECHR establishes a right to privacy; and I think the Halford case showed that there is no infringement of a right to privacy when there is no expectation of privacy. So I believe there would be no valid claim of infringement of right to privacy by a participant who is aware the call may be recorded.

 

To my surprise, RIPA does seem relevant. My first and second readings of it have led me to conclude that while "interception" appears to be defined in one part as making the call available live to a non-participant - and so making a recording available would not be interception - that is later modified (para 8) to include making recordings that could be made available to others. Note that as far as I can see, it is the making of the recording that would be "interception", not actually making it available to others. Of course my interpretation may simply be wrong.

 

I still have not come across any authority for the suggestion that call participants' permission is required to make recordings available to others.

 

Anyway, please do continue with the criticisms. I really would like to gather together the relevant laws and licences, and come up with a complete set of the relevant information to try to put an end to the disinformation about recording phone calls.

 

Tim