Credit AGREEMENT -or- APPLICATION? RBS Advantage Card

[zubo]

I'm reading this that the CCP doesn't have to provide you with a copy of the agreement when it is given to you for signature, as there isn't an agreement to send, or where the customer can take two copies of the application if they so require. If you look at this with a sensible head on, can you imagine the confusion there would be if application forms came in triplicate?

 

Of course... I totally agree

[KJD]

Lets look at this in sequence:

a prospective customer picks up the application so he applies.

So this is the first document. and this isnt required.

The application still requires a signature on the agreement, so I cannot see how this can be enforced.

Show me where it says this in CCA - this looks contradictory from OFT. Perhaps an explanation is needed from OFT?

 

Z

 

Just adding my penny's worth...

 

Many moons ago when I used to offer finance / credit on purchases from my shop (with Paragon - so sorry guys. If only I'd known!) I would fill out an application form similar to those posted, then, while the customer was still in the shop, phone the details through to Paragon, who would give a yes or no answer as to whether the customer was given the finance or not. So the customer walked out of the shop knowing they had the money. We would have taken the deposit for the goods and arranged delivery on the say so of that conversation with Paragon. It wasn't a case of waiting for the customer to get a formal agreement, sign and return to Paragon before we got the okay to go ahead. I think that's why 'they' are saying it IS a valid agreement. Providing all the other requirements were there (total, interest, etc).

[KJD]

I'm reading this that the CCP doesn't have to provide you with a copy of the agreement when it is given to you for signature, as there isn't an agreement to send, or where the customer can take two copies of the application if they so require. If you look at this with a sensible head on, can you imagine the confusion there would be if application forms came in triplicate?

 

From memory there were four copies with Paragon - 1st & 3rd for Paragon; 2nd for the customer and 4th for us (retailer). Although we stopped offering finance years ago (too high interest!) I'm sure I'll have one of these in the dusty archives. Will try to find one soon.

[joneshousehold]

a document which is also an application form that a prospective customer picks up from a shop counter or from a leaflet dispenser.

 

I am still concerned about the use of the word ALSO in this part. Doesn't this mean an application can also be an agreement. I thought the DTI/MP letter you posted Peter said it could not be both.

[Vampyra]

subscribing

[MCPR82]

Can I jump into this and ask, if, in my case, I need to send two seperate CCA letters to NatWest Cards- as I have 2 credit card accounts (Gold and ordinary mastercard) with them. I was planning to send one letter - detailing both accounts (and enclosing two £1 postal orders).

 

Can I also be cheeky and ask why it is important to include "'I do not acknowledge any debt to your company". In my case - I have missed a number of payments and they seem unwilling to listen to any request to establish a DMP - I was going to take them to task on their failure to respond to my five letters and CCA them at the same time. Is this wise ?

 

Thanks All !!

[ladybird17]

I think that seems fine to send the one letter but the 2 payments.

Without an properly executed CCA then the debt is unenforceable - guess until such time you have had sight of the CCA then you don't acknowledge a debt. Frankly, they take no notice whatever you put!

IMHO I would just send them the CCA, why alert them to the fact that you have had no responses to your previous letters? The less they do - the worse it is for them - thus, better for you.

[Guest Battleaxe]

I am not sure about one letter LB, I have have found you really have to make it VERY clear for the little darlings. they get so confused and then plead that your request was not clear. Had experience of this when I tried to take a short cut and send one letter with two payments, they returned one payment.

[ladybird17]

MCPR - Battleaxe is no doubt right - one letter requesting 2 CCA's may be well beyond their comprehension levels. So 2 letters it is!!

[Vampyra]

Yes I was considering a request for 2 accounts on one letter to save paper, but thought they might try to swindle out of it. Is it ok to send both letters in the same envelope to save postage costs?

[Guest Battleaxe]

If one request went astry if two were in the same envelope, how you prove you requested two?

 

The only you can proveit, is two requests, each in it's own envelope and both requests sent recorded delivery. This way the creditor has no get out clause.

 

If they can try any trick in the book to get out of complying and you haven't got ironclad proof you sent it, you don't have a leg to stand on. We have to do things lawfully and keep our cases watertight.

 

it is no use complaining when you don't get the response you want from the creditor. They are past masters at this game.

[Vampyra]

OK Battleaxe, thanks for the advice!

[MCPR82]

Thanks BattleAxe, LB and All - Two letters it is !!!

[Guest Battleaxe]

I am only speaking for experience and learning the hard way. If those of us who have experienced their little tricks and had redo things, don't pass this on to others behind us, we would not be helping you escape the pitfalls.

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

I think it is pretty plain that an agreement can be an application even if only due to the fact that it is happening all the time.

 

We have to remember that the agreement is not executed until both signatures are on it, so the debtor signing does not execute it unless the creditor has already signed, either in the presence of the debtor when of course no copy is sent because you will already have one. Or else to be signed and returned in which case a copy will be sent.63(2)

In the case of the agreement that is picked up or sent where you keep a copy of your unsigned agreement and send it off for the creditors signature, secton63(3) requires the creditor to send back a copy of the executed (signed agreement so that the debtor can see that it has not been altered before the creditor executed it.

 

Also although these agreements are in the strictest sense said to be uncancellable according to the OFT if the agreement says You have a short time to cancel on the front or anywhere it has to conform to the agreement and copies of document regulations as if it was.

 

This if you think about it leaves a whole new avenue for pressing unenforceability under section 127(4), as a copy doc without the creditors sig supplied under 63(3) (The only copy that has to have both sigs)would have not to been executed if not signed by the creditor. If the copy they send you under say under a 77 request was not signed by the creditor then how could the 63(3) copy thus they have not complied with section 127.

 

Bes regards

 

Peter

[m55dlc]

Very true Peter, and for a s78 request unsigned in the same manner means that they could never have complied with their obligations under s85 for credit cards either, so no sig by the ccp means they are stuffed.... the enforcement by a court order is irrelevant as they haven't complied with the act and therefore cannot charge interest on the agreement

[zubo]

I am only speaking for experience and learning the hard way. If those of us who have experienced their little tricks and had redo things, don't pass this on to others behind us, we would not be helping you escape the pitfalls.

 

I started off being frugal and heading up my letter with both account numbers and one cheque, but now I destroy a rainforest - I submit one CCA letter and one SAR for each account AND I write a covering letter explaining their obligations for each, ie summarising what I have just sent them but I still only send one cheque...

 

and so far most have ignored the requests which is fine because I then send them a bunch of official default notices... with a covering letter...

 

Z

[Peterbard]

I am still concerned about the use of the word ALSO in this part. Doesn't this mean an application can also be an agreement. I thought the DTI/MP letter you posted Peter said it could not be both.

#

Hi

 

No It said that in response to a section 77- request an application form would not do.

 

What this is saying that an agreement can be used as an application form.

That would be executed on the creditors signature.

 

Basically if the document says agreement regulated etc on the top the creditor believes it is an agreement and if it contains all the relevant pt's and conditions it is. The only difference is who signs it first.

Since it is only executed when both sigs are on it.

If it is a document picked up from a retailer or something it becomes executed when you send it in and the creditor signs it. He then must send you a copy back in 7 days so you can check against the copy that was with the orriginal that none of the conditions have been altered.

If you are not happy you have 5 days to cancell.

If it is a distance contract you have 7 days from the day the creditor signs providing you already have a full copy of the T and Cs .

This is basically the case although there are a few minor ellements i have left out.

 

Peter

 

Peter

[joesoap]

Off topic somewhat but I'd just like to tell all those that were interested, my son's wedding went like a dream. Weather was brilliant and everything went like clockwork; until I got home the next day to discover my PC had died on me. Extra outgoings for a new machine which is loaded with Vista and I don't like it. The machine's a bit iffy as well. I've some catching up to do.

 

IanM

[NIDGE63]

Hi does anyone have a template letter for sending off for my credit agreement thanks

[davefirewalker]

Hi nidge

 

something like..........

 

I do not acknowledge ANY debt to your company. I require you to supply the following documentation before I will correspond further on this matter.

 

You must supply me with a true copy of the alleged agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit) - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account.

 

I understand that you are allowed to charge for this service, so I enclose the statutory fee of £1

 

You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974.

 

Non-compliance with my request is an offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities, or a claim filed in court for noncompliance.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer and creditor is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

etc.

----------------------------------------

 

 

edit as you see fit

 

Dave

[davefirewalker]

hi nidge

 

or you can do it a bit more "stealthaly" (if thats a word)

 

Dear sir

 

With the current media attention on debt, bankruptcies IVA’s etc, I am in the process of organising my own financial records such as bank statements, agreements, loans, etc to try and fully understand and record my financial position.

 

I do not have a copy of our agreement or any statements. With this in mind please send me a true copy of the signed executed credit agreement between ****** and myself. As I’m sure that you are aware that under the obligations of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 you have a duty to supply this but in doing so are entitled to make a charge. Therefore I enclose the statutory sum of £1.00.

 

Also I believe that I can get all the statements and any other data that you hold on me by paying the sum of £10.00 as is my right under the data protection act 1998. I think that this is called a Subject Access Request and has to be complied with within 40 days.

 

Please find enclosed a cheque for £11.00 to cover both items

In closing may I thank for your time and I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

 

 

yours etc

 

-------------------------------

 

they may think that you dont realise whats going on

 

and then when they dont comply in time, youve got em.

 

Dave

[Laiste]

Hi everyone,

 

I have been ruminating over prescribed terms, specifically the total charge for credit (I should get out more, I know:eek: ) and want to raise a point for discussion, that may also prove very useful for those individuals whose agreements sadly;) conform to the CCA 1974 and Regs 1983 etc...!

 

On an agreement, lets assume it's a credit card, where the interest rate is clearly displayed, as are the charges for late pmts and going over the agreed limit. Of the many agreements I have looked at, nowhere can I find a statement to the effect that interest will be levied on said charges. This will not come as a surprise to anyone I dare say. The point is, the CCA 1974 is very specific and whilst I may seem like I'm being pedantic, if it's not in the contract, it cannot be added, but it should form part of the TCC otherwise people are being deceived. It may also provide an argument as to the enforceability of the agreement as it should be stated clearly that interest will be levied.

 

It may seem like an obvious point that interest will accrue on said charges, but the banks and c/c's don't have to add interest but they do nevertheless! Being the cynic I am as far as the banks and c/c's are concerned, I believe it is policy not to disclose this fact in the T&C's, as maybe even the hierarchy within these Companies think including it is a p*** take too far, even for them!

 

All comments welcomed and appreciated...!

 

Regards,

 

Laiste.

[davefirewalker]

Hi everyone

 

please have a look at this

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/post-753131.html

 

look like its airtight...

 

any ideas

 

BTW they were 18 days past the 12 working days

 

Dave

[Seahorse]

Yup, looks reasonably fine at first glance unfortunately.