MINT / Triton / Green & Co solicitors vs me

[Cristal]

This is a new thread, continuing on from my posts on Newman Debt collection Agents Thread.

 

I have a considerable CC debt w/MINT, who passed it on to Triton, who competely ignored my CCAs to them. Triton/MINT have passed it on to Green & Co solicitors for immediate collection or else they'll take me to court.

 

Zubo, who has been fabulously supportive posted this:

Last point first - now - when its a different Creditor.

 

No, they cannot ignore it - in fact if it were me I would start by saying - where IS the agreement, what does it say?

Also failure to supply after 12 days really deserves an extra special letter:

 

Send them this, copy Greens

Cover Letter:

 

Thank you for your letter of the date. In response I would refer you to my earlier letters sent recorded to you.

You have not responded to my lawful requests under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and are now in Default. You are reminded that under Section 78(6) (a) The creditor is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement and (b) if the default continues for one month the creditor commits a criminal offence.

Whilst you are in default you are also reminded that I have not provided you with any consent to notify any third party regarding the conduct of myself and this alleged agreement and any attempt to do otherwise would be construed as a violation of my rights under the Data Protection Act.

include the following if they have not responded to the SAR.

 

Finally, I would advise you that I have still not received any information to my lawful request for a full Subject Access Request sent to you at the same time as my CCA request and which requires to be provided within strict timescales defined in the Act. Failure to do so would again be a violation of your obligation under the Act and I would seek full remedy.

 

 

 

Letter 2

 

 

 

 

*NOTICE OF DEFAULT *

 

*Served under Sections 78*

 

*Of*

 

*The Consumer Credit Act (1974) as amended*

 

*Creditor: XXXXXXXXX**Account No: XXXXXXXXXX*

*You are duly notified that you have been in default (Sections 78) under the aforementioned sections of the above Act since Date your credit card valid from date**In order to correct this breach all interest payments and charges made since Date - your credit card valid from date must be consolidated.**To correct this, consolidation must be made within 1 month of this notice.**If the correction required by this notice is taken before the date of expiry of this notice then no further action will be taken in respect of the breach.**If the action required by this notice is not taken within 1 month of this notice then the default will be registered with a credit reference agency, OFT and OCI will be notified and I will commence court procedings to recover Consolidation and declare the agreement void and unenforceable.**Notes under Section 78(6) **(a) The Creditor is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and **(b)* *If the default continues for one month the creditor commits an offence. *

*Signed Your signature*

 

*Date Today's date*

***************

 

Would love to know if anyone else has been down this road w/MINT?

[zubo]

go get em girl...

 

I'm pushing hard too on mine....

 

Zx

[Cristal]

Z, sorry, i know you're busy....am just now concentrating on this and presume I need to enclose the Notice of Default (letter 2) with Letter 1? sorry, took a stupid pill today.

[zubo]

Z, sorry, i know you're busy....am just now concentrating on this and presume I need to enclose the Notice of Default (letter 2) with Letter 1? sorry, took a stupid pill today.

 

you're not blonde are you...:D:D:D

 

just kidding....

 

yes they are a pair - I tend to be too verbose but it makes them think I am saying something else in the second letter ... hehehe... strategy...

in fact its better with 2 accounts - and different issues - I am sending LTSB an LBA twice for non compliance on the SAR, twice a default and covering letter for failure on s78 and one LBA for failing to cease harrassment...

[Cristal]

I am actually...and some days can be blonder than others!

 

Thanks for the confirmation. will send them out tomorrow. For the record (and your expert eye), this is the letter I've sent out in the past:

 

I refer to my letter dated in which I made a formal request under the Consumer credit act 1974 sec 77-79 for true copies of the regulated credit agreements referred to in the above account numbers. You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these under sec.189 whether you are the original creditor or not. I also enclosed the statutory fee of £1.00 for each account.

 

To date you have failed to comply with my statutory request and have defaulted in respect of all 3 accounts.. This means that under the CCA you have now committed an offence punishable upon conviction, by a fine of £2,500 or 3 months imprisonment.

 

Additionally these alleged agreements are unenforceable until such time as the default is removed or enforced by a court of law. It is a further offence to attempt to enforce these alleged agreements until such time as the default is removed.

 

Consequently I am ceasing all payments to your company until such time as this matter is resolved.

 

It is also my intention to report this matter to the appropriate enforcement authority.

 

I await your prompt response.

 

 

Presumably, your 2 letters would have the same impact/response as this one?

Cx

[Cristal]

 

I am sending LTSB an LBA twice for non compliance on the SAR, twice a default and covering letter for failure on s78 and one LBA for failing to cease harrassment...

 

Sorry... have clearly OD'd on stupid pills...what are LTSB and LBA?

[zubo]

Sorry... have clearly OD'd on stupid pills...what are LTSB and LBA?

 

Cristal

 

stop apologising... I get so hooked on acronyms that it makes it difficult for other people....

 

Letter Before Action = trust me I'm going to court with this

 

LTSB are LloydsTSB

 

Zx

[Cristal]

I won't apologise again. But I will TY (thank you).

[zubo]

To date you have failed to comply with my statutory request and have defaulted in respect of all 3 accounts.. This means that under the CCA you have now committed an offence punishable upon conviction, by a fine of £2,500 or 3 months imprisonment for each of these three accounts.

 

and yes, this has been my standard response, I am reverting to hardcore lately and sending an 'official' looking default notice with the letter to explain. Still needs a bit more there.

 

It also depends on where you want to go with your action... if you simply want to say... the debt is unenforceable, I'm not paying, you cannot make me, then that is one approach.

If you want to take it further, then you issue a default notice and say how they can lift you default notice - by paying you all the money you have paid them in charges and interest and terminating the alleged agreement, removing the debt and associated defaults from you.

Next step would be an LBA, finally court action looking to declare the agreement void.

 

My overriding concern with S78 is that while it stops them doing anything now... what about when (a) the law changes or (b) they actually find the agreement!!!

 

Its called grab the moment and the law....

 

but each to their own

 

Zx

[Cristal]

Okay...I'll go w/your official looking notice and letter and skip the 'punishable, etc.' bit. Presumably, your letters provide a little insurance against the law changing or them finding the agreement (but isn't there a 30 day limit on that anyway?).

[zubo]

Okay...I'll go w/your official looking notice and letter and skip the 'punishable, etc.' bit. Presumably, your letters provide a little insurance against the law changing or them finding the agreement (but isn't there a 30 day limit on that anyway?).

 

Actually, I quite like the punishable bit, but it is a total aside and I think the OFT do not have the b++++s for it.

 

Views differ re enforcement - some say they can immediately enforce, others that they have to ask a court for leave to enforce, others (v few) think the agreement cannot be enforced - they are wrong it can be enforced.

 

Hence my reasoning to use a risky hardcore strategy. I am certainly not happy with the wording nor the remedy wording and will be refining it shortly when I get a moment. I just feel the need to test the strategy and am watching others as they progress...

 

Zx

[Cristal]

Zubo, I'm reprinting our exchange from your thread 'American Express lowered my credit limit' just to keep this thread updated...:

 

Hi Zubo - I know this is an Amex/Newmans thread but I know how expert you are on CCA Agreements and wanted to pass on a reply from Mint to my CCA and SAR as it relates to the CCA (I'd put it on the main CCA thread but that has become too labyrinthian for me!).

 

Mint says: 'Your request for documents contains some misconceptions about yout entitlement to information in a specified form and our obligations to supply that information. So that there are no misunderstanding (sic) here we will set the record straight on the format of the information we are obliged to provide you.

 

........We are obliged to provide you with a 'true' copy of the credit agreement and a statement of financial information realting to the account, namely, the state of the account, amount currently due, with amounts and due dates of future payments that still require to be made. In terms of the CCA copy document regulations, the 'true' copy requirement can be satisfied by providing a copy agreement at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card agreement. I enclose the s78 (1) information.'

 

They enclosed the usual Application Form, sans limit, APR and interest info, plus an unsigned and undated CCA agreement, addressed to me with my card number on it and credit limit. I'm sure I never rec'd this before.

 

I sent them the usual, Zubo-esque response but I thought you might like to see how the CCP defines its legal position. Has to be wrong, doesn't it?

 

Apologies if this is an intrusion on your thread but I posted it as I think it feeds into your ongoing quest for the defintion of a credit agreement ! Cx

 

No intrusion at all.

What is interesting is their very narrow interpretation of the Act - like someone has read 78(1)

 

shall give the debtor a copy of the executed

agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement

signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it

is practicable for him to refer,--

Consumer Credit Act 1974 (c.39)

(a) the state of the account,

(b) the amount, if any currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the

creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not

draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement

by the debtor to the creditor.

 

This clearly ignores reading ALL the other things which must be in the original true copy of the signed executed agreement. They have also clearly missed the fact that an agreement cannot be reconstructed - why send you the current T&C - you (might have) signed on the basis of previous T&C, and why send the true agreement unsigned... amazing.

 

The more I read the more I believe that very very few CCP have complied with the Act.

 

Z

 

 

*

[Cristal]

Actually, I quite like the punishable bit, but it is a total aside and I think the OFT do not have the b++++s for it.

 

Views differ re enforcement - some say they can immediately enforce, others that they have to ask a court for leave to enforce, others (v few) think the agreement cannot be enforced - they are wrong it can be enforced.

 

Hence my reasoning to use a risky hardcore strategy. I am certainly not happy with the wording nor the remedy wording and will be refining it shortly when I get a moment. I just feel the need to test the strategy and am watching others as they progress...

 

Zx

 

MINT has sent me yet another letter, referring again to the letter I wrote last year, advising them of my financial difficulty and promising to pay in a few months time. MINT also states categorically that it is not unlawful for Triton to have info about me: 'As advised in our default notice issued to you......, failure to restore your account as required, ' the Bank may also assign your account to a Debt collection Agent of take court action to recoever the debt'. And:

'The Bank has not contravened the DPA, the Banking code or the CCA 1974 and the outstanding balance is considered due and payable. If you disagree, you have the right to appy to the court to have inaccurate personal data rectifierd, blocked, erased or destroyed. Further information is available from the Information Commissioner's website, etc.'

 

They are clearly digging theiir heels in.....any advice?

[zubo]

MINT has sent me yet another letter, referring again to the letter I wrote last year, advising them of my financial difficulty and promising to pay in a few months time. MINT also states categorically that it is not unlawful for Triton to have info about me: 'As advised in our default notice issued to you......, failure to restore your account as required, ' the Bank may also assign your account to a Debt collection Agent of take court action to recoever the debt'. And:

'The Bank has not contravened the DPA, the Banking code or the CCA 1974 and the outstanding balance is considered due and payable. If you disagree, you have the right to appy to the court to have inaccurate personal data rectifierd, blocked, erased or destroyed. Further information is available from the Information Commissioner's website, etc.'

 

They are clearly digging theiir heels in.....any advice?

 

Cristal

 

I am slowly building stuff up here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/site-questions-suggestions/79147-consumer-credit-act-resources-2.html

 

look at #24 and 25 - tailor these.

 

Z

[Cristal]

I am slowly building stuff up here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/site-questions-suggestions/79147-consumer-credit-act-resources-2.html

 

look at #24 and 25 - tailor these.

 

Z

 

Wow...those letters are dynamite!! I think I may opt for 25 - it's simple and direct, tho scarily confronting. I suspect that MINT will pick up the challenge. Yikes!!! will keep you posted. Cx

[i2edbull]

Sorry to hijack your thread Cristal,

 

But have you got a contact telephone number for Triton that you can post up here for me as I need to contact them urgently regarding a old debt that I have paid.

 

(I need proof from them that I have paid before the Halifax will lend me the money for my Mortgage)

 

Thanks In Advance

 

I2edbull (Gavin)

[Cristal]

The number I have for Triton is 020 7680 9301, fax 020 7702 9800

 

They're open until 9, until 5 on Friday and until 1 on Saturday. Closed on Sunday.

 

Good luck and don't give them my regards!

[i2edbull]

Thanks Cristal your a star

 

Don't worry I will not pass on your regards or mine as I rememebr are rude and aggressive they were with me before.

 

I just hope they are willing to help me this time round.

 

Fingers Crossed

[Cristal]

don't take no for an answer! Hope the mortgage comes thru...soooo stressful! Cx

[Cristal]

Cristal

 

I am slowly building stuff up here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/site-questions-suggestions/79147-consumer-credit-act-resources-2.html

 

look at #24 and 25 - tailor these.

 

Z

 

So, I sent off the longer of the two letters and rec'd a v. shirty reply from MINT. In reponse to my CCA letter, they sent me my application form, which lacked a credit limit, etc. It is 'signed' with stamped signature about two months after the date of signature.

 

The recent letter from MINT states: 'The bank has complied completely with your request for the credit agreement to be sent to you....we are obliged to provide you with a true copy of the agreement relevant to the card product at that date that the card agreement was made (which is this case was the signed request made by you for the credit card, the application form). This must be supplied with a opy of the current terms of the card product and a copy statement of the financial info relating to the account - the state of the account, amount currently due. All this info was supplied to you.......Particularly 3(2) which permits the copy agreement not to show signatures or personal details that may have appeared on the application part of the document. There is no statutory requirement under the Act for us ever to give a copy to a customer with a signature on it......I would inform you that, given the processsing of your personal data was consented to by you (in the way described above - I left that out), you cannot retrospectively withdraw that consent after the processing has been carried out......we have the legal right to pursue you for the repayment of this acc't as we have met our obligations under the CCA. You must now contact Triton Credit Services with your repayment proposals on this debt to enure further action is not taken.'

 

Are they correct? Am hoping they are not......Cx

 

PS Just noticed that this letter is from the Mint Debt Recovery Office, not from Cards Customer Service as previously. Also interesting to note that the solicitors are not mentioned and we're back to Triton.

[zubo]

Cristal,

 

I would respond with the appropriate section from the Amex DTI quote, in fact probably modify my latest Amex letter since it explains most points, add that the application is not an agreement -insert reference from DTI and hence conclude that they do not have an agreement with your signature so the alleged debt is unenforceable - and since there is no agreement there is no consent, they are also in default cannot apply charges etc etc and that you intend to seek restitution for all unlawful interest, charges and penalties.

Then add #30 latest addition to http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/site-questions-suggestions/79147-consumer-credit-act-resources-2.html

 

Z

[Cristal]

Zubo, tremendous thanks for this. It's absolutely exhausting being this broke! MINT is beiing particularly aggressive, so it will be interesting to see how far this goes (well, it IS a lot of money, 5 figures) but It IS an application form, lacking a credit limit, APR, but including balance transfer amounts. In teeny writing abve my signature, it is referred to as an 'agreement'. Hope all of your other missions are successful and will keep you posted re this.....CX

[Cristal]

Cristal,

 

I would respond with the appropriate section from the Amex DTI quote, in fact probably modify my latest Amex letter since it explains most points, add that the application is not an agreement -insert reference from DTI and hence conclude that they do not have an agreement with your signature so the alleged debt is unenforceable - and since there is no agreement there is no consent, they are also in default cannot apply charges etc etc and that you intend to seek restitution for all unlawful interest, charges and penalties.

Then add #30 latest addition to http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/site-questions-suggestions/79147-consumer-credit-act-resources-2.html

 

Z

 

Apologies for being thick...just re read the MINT letter and they claim 'under 7(1) (b) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellations Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Particularly 3(2) which permits the copy agreement not to show signatures or personal details that may have appeared on the application part of the document. There is no statutory requirement under the Act for us ever to give a copy to the customer with a signature on it'.

 

Is there any precedent in refuting this? They have sent me a 2 page 'agreement', unsigned and undated but is the above correct? If so, my argument dissolves....CX

[Sparkie1723]

Just a quick note for your records if Green & Co get involved just send them a copy of the Information Commissioners Office register of Data Controllers, they are not registered and should not be passed any information about you by anyone and hold it if they do they commit an offfence under the Data Protection Act.

 

sparkie1723

 

 

 

* There are no entries that match your search criteria.

 

 

Registration Number

 

 

Name Green & Co Solicitors

 

 

Address Alberton House St Marys Parsonage Manchester

 

 

Postcode M3 2WJ

 

 

Organisation sub-division

 

 

 

[zubo]

Apologies for being thick...just re read the MINT letter and they claim 'under 7(1) (b) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellations Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Particularly 3(2) which permits the copy agreement not to show signatures or personal details that may have appeared on the application part of the document. There is no statutory requirement under the Act for us ever to give a copy to the customer with a signature on it'.

 

Is there any precedent in refuting this? They have sent me a 2 page 'agreement', unsigned and undated but is the above correct? If so, my argument dissolves....CX

 

Short answer is a number of them argue this, that is why you need to add #30 because failure to supply this leads you to believe it does not exist.

The real argument here is that anybody could send you anything and say THAT is what you signed upto. The natural response is - prove it, if you have it.

 

Z