Mbna - Properly Executed Agreements

[pudsters14]

Right got the first of the MBNA CCA requests back today, will post what they sent.... it looks like they have photocopied some T&Cs onto the back of the copy but it doesn't look like that would have been on the back of the original document, you'll see what I mean.., I've also got a blank application form that they seem to be using now which seems to have all the prescribed terms on there, just shows how bad the one i've received is...i'll upload and post!

[pudsters14]

[pudsters14]

[pudsters14]

The above thingy with the crystal mark has been photocopied onto the back of what is above... I don't know whether that was there originally as they didn't give me a copy of this from what I can remember.... any opinions on these? Will zoom in on the important data protection as that actually states that this is only an application it says 'MBNA reserves the right to issue a different type of card' surely then this form is purely pre-contractual?!? I'll post that on now!

[ss_collins]

They aint signed it?

[pudsters14]

[pudsters14]

They aint signed it?

Im not sure if thats a signature in the top left corner...looks like it... there is no specified APR, payback terms etc... I thought they had to be on the page I signed?

[redsue]

Hi pudsters14

I know how MBNA produce their app forms from a previous life and I JUST KNOW (pm me if you want more details) that the terms and conditions would have been on the back of the application form.

They would have been lasered (not printed) so they could use the same application form but for different cards and rates - if you look closely on the back in the bottom right hand corner you will see the code DP-01-04-5329-E 2.9/15.9 - DP stands for Direct Promotions (people on stands in airports) 01 = Jan. 04 = 2004 - so it was produced in Jan 2004.

5329 = the in house job number. 2.9/15.9 means balance transfer rate of 2.9 reverting to 15.9%.

The two card options on the front would also have been lasered - it is so they can print thousands and thousands of base application forms and then laser on variables (more cost effective way of producing things).

I hope this is of help and I'm sorry if its not the answer you wanted - however PM if you want more details about how I know.

[pudsters14]

Hi pudsters14

I know how MBNA produce their app forms from a previous life and I JUST KNOW (pm me if you want more details) that the terms and conditions would have been on the back of the application form.

They would have been lasered (not printed) so they could use the same application form but for different cards and rates - if you look closely on the back in the bottom right hand corner you will see the code DP-01-04-5329-E 2.9/15.9 - DP stands for Direct Promotions (people on stands in airports) 01 = Jan. 04 = 2004 - so it was produced in Jan 2004.

5329 = the in house job number. 2.9/15.9 means balance transfer rate of 2.9 reverting to 15.9%.

The two card options on the front would also have been lasered - it is so they can print thousands and thousands of base application forms and then laser on variables (more cost effective way of producing things).

I hope this is of help and I'm sorry if its not the answer you wanted - however PM if you want more details about how I know.

Hey Redsue... You don't have to be sorry... I just want to get my head around what they have sent me. So although the terms and conditions are on the back aren't there some prescribed terms missing from the front of the form... as it doesn't actually state repayments and APRs for me... just what may be accepted?!? Please help... I'm not very knowledgable about stuff like this... but have learnt a lot from this site.... I don't mind sending you a pm if that's easier?!?

[redsue]

So although the terms and conditions are on the back aren't there some prescribed terms missing from the front of the form... as it doesn't actually state repayments and APRs for me.

Not sure about this bit TBH pudsters14 - I just wanted to clear up any doubt about it being on the back of the form

 

I'm not very knowledgable about stuff like this... but have learnt a lot from this site

 

me too pudsters I'm learning as I go but FWIW I've also sent them CCA's for two accounts so when I eventually receive them I'll post them up too. I know they will both be pre-2004 tho

[m55dlc]

This is signed, see top left hand corner. Also, see the application / credit reference number next to it? Also, see that this is processed through a rep, this is, unfortunately, executed.

 

But, there are a number of the terms missing from the page you signed, so unless they produce the original agreement in court, you should be OK.

 

If they produce the original in court and the back of the form is deemed admissible from the judge (Your honour, these T&C's are on the agreement) you may well get it upheld.

 

This signature they use, though, is not just used for executing agreements, they've used it on my web-application-form-request and are claiming that as it is on there (some three weeks before I signed it) they have an executed agreement. It beggars belief, it really does.

[pudsters14]

This is signed, see top left hand corner. Also, see the application / credit reference number next to it? Also, see that this is processed through a rep, this is, unfortunately, executed.

 

But, there are a number of the terms missing from the page you signed, so unless they produce the original agreement in court, you should be OK.

 

If they produce the original in court and the back of the form is deemed admissible from the judge (Your honour, these T&C's are on the agreement) you may well get it upheld.

 

This signature they use, though, is not just used for executing agreements, they've used it on my web-application-form-request and are claiming that as it is on there (some three weeks before I signed it) they have an executed agreement. It beggars belief, it really does.

Okay, I may be missing the point, does the fact that it was done with a rep make it executed? Where they have ticked completed by customer.. yes and no... this is incorrect because I never filled in any of this form just signed it, plus the fact that they have ticked both boxes contradicts itself... also what about the fact the apr etc is missing? they have also been charging me for PPI which I can now see I definately didn't sign for... but I thought if the prescribed terms were missing that was it? I'm not disagreeing with you by the way as i really appreciate the advice, just want to ask these questions...

[m55dlc]

I've just re-read what I'd written and I didn't mean to make any statement that a rep filling it in would make it executed. Oh, and just a thought, but if you personally didn't fill in the date, have you signed it?

 

I've looked again at the number on the top and I think this is a microfiche reference, but I could be wrong.

 

The prescribed terms are in the T&C's allegedly on the back of the form, therefore if they are there, they will argue that they are present. If you only have a photocopy, and the T&C's are in their abridged form (1/3 page) and the application form is an A4 piece, you can argue that the T&C's provided by photocopy are not from the same agreement.

 

The same-page interpretation of the SI's is just that, an interpretation.

 

I'm not a fan of this particular CCP as you may or may not know. I'm letting them tie themselves in knots at the moment, which currently I'm thinking about the Fraud Act 2006 for their non-SAR compliance.

 

I am on your side, I'm just trying to keep things on the right side of level.

[The Lantana]

Right, accepting (as Redsue has kindly pointed out) that the T&C's were indeed on the reverse of the form, they are just that - T&C's. They're even headed as such.

 

The agreement must contain the prescribed terms and they cannot JUST be buried in the T&C's.

 

So, MBNA will say in court....'mr pudster signed this agreement blah blah, and the T&C's are on the reverse blah blah, now fork over our dosh.'

 

'..but m'lud' says mrs pudster on behalf of mt pudster 'the prescribed terms must be contained within the agreement and not in the T&C's. The agreement, if it be that, signed by mr pudster doesn't have all the prescribed terms and most importantly lacks details of an interest rate, credit limit and repayments.'

 

To which the Judge will say (IMHO) 'mrs pudster you are not only a beautiful and fragrant woman but you have an astute legal mind too. I have no hesitation in finding in your favour as it is clear to me MBNA have tried a spot of 'sleight of hand' in this instance. I hereby sentence the senior team at MBNA to 5 years hard labour.'

 

How about that.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[pudsters14]

I've just re-read what I'd written and I didn't mean to make any statement that a rep filling it in would make it executed. Oh, and just a thought, but if you personally didn't fill in the date, have you signed it?

 

I've looked again at the number on the top and I think this is a microfiche reference, but I could be wrong.

 

The prescribed terms are in the T&C's allegedly on the back of the form, therefore if they are there, they will argue that they are present. If you only have a photocopy, and the T&C's are in their abridged form (1/3 page) and the application form is an A4 piece, you can argue that the T&C's provided by photocopy are not from the same agreement.

 

The same-page interpretation of the SI's is just that, an interpretation.

 

I'm not a fan of this particular CCP as you may or may not know. I'm letting them tie themselves in knots at the moment, which currently I'm thinking about the Fraud Act 2006 for their non-SAR compliance.

 

I am on your side, I'm just trying to keep things on the right side of level.

I know that, just want to bounce some questions around ysee, coz Mr Pudsters has got accounts with them so just wondering where we stand with them... I didn't fill in the date so i've not dated it myself... I don't really know where to go with this now or whether to go anywhere with it... the only thing that concerns me is that in theory they could have awarded me any old card on the basis of this application and therefore surely once they had done their checks etc they should have sent me an agreement to sign based on what they were actually offering... when you look at their new apps now they actually state all the prescribed terms on the same page and state the exact apr you are getting etc. Just thinking outloud (in an typing it in here type of way)... any advice about my next steps? there's section 85 i suppose and all that PPI they have been charging me that I never asked for... would just like to exhaust the CCA route 1st though...

[m55dlc]

Unfortunately, the T&C's DON'T say T&C's, they are NOT the T&C's as provided WITH the agreement, they are additional elements OF the agreement. If you notice, every MBNA 'agreement' [that I have seen] refers to Term 11 (or Condition 11) which is NOT present in the back of the application bumph I have seen.

 

The other terms are, unfortunately, there. These, if shown to be on the same piece of paper, are present on the document, and now having read [most] of the 83 regs, I'm still not comfortable that the regs state that all of the terms need to be on the same side of the agreement as the signature. Please, refute what I am saying, I don't want it to be true, but it is what I see here.

[The Lantana]

'Credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974 terms and conditions'

 

Look again my little friends...

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[m55dlc]

Oh, didn't see that bit.

 

Erm, just a thought, but all of the other MBNA agreements I've seen state section 11, but that isn't there on these T&C's. Where is this section? How can I have read it if it isn't there? Can you have two documents headed T&C's? Surely that is misleading?

 

Oh, and Lantana, the bit about the same page is still bugging me...

[pudsters14]

Right, accepting (as Redsue has kindly pointed out) that the T&C's were indeed on the reverse of the form, they are just that - T&C's. They're even headed as such.

 

The agreement must contain the prescribed terms and they cannot JUST be buried in the T&C's.

 

So, MBNA will say in court....'mr pudster signed this agreement blah blah, and the T&C's are on the reverse blah blah, now fork over our dosh.'

 

'..but m'lud' says mrs pudster on behalf of mt pudster 'the prescribed terms must be contained within the agreement and not in the T&C's. The agreement, if it be that, signed by mr pudster doesn't have all the prescribed terms and most importantly lacks details of an interest rate, credit limit and repayments.'

 

To which the Judge will say (IMHO) 'mrs pudster you are not only a beautiful and fragrant woman but you have an astute legal mind too. I have no hesitation in finding in your favour as it is clear to me MBNA have tried a spot of 'sleight of hand' in this instance. I hereby sentence the senior team at MBNA to 5 years hard labour.'

 

How about that.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

LOL LOL LOL loving it Lantana. I agree that I think this is only showing that I applied for a credit card…. It doesn’t prescribe the terms to me or indeed to which I am signing up for, merely gives examples of what they may offer if they see it necessary.. Should I write a letter stating send me the signed executed agreement within the timescales as this is an application form etc etc and the rest…. 5th April is D-Day for them… Would love to stick to MBNA as they have been complete horrors with us and that’s being nice, me being a beautiful and fragrant woman and all that….lol…. am getting into role!....

[The Lantana]

m55, the 'same page' bit is bugging me too and the most relevant quote I can find is in the OFT document ofto18 (see quote below). The question arises what is a document? For me, unless it can be clearly shown to be part of the same document (eg by my initials) I'd reject it. They could put up anything.

 

I'm sure I read somewhere that it must be on the same page though, but for the life of me can't find it.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

 

'Some terms must always be contained in the signature document as described under the heading ‘What the agreement must contain’. But any other term of the agreement can be recorded either in the signature document or in another document referred to in it.'

[Rhia]

That laser printed signature which appears in the top left hand corner of the form. I have seen that now on a number of application forms dating from 1999 right up to date. The signature is exactly the same and there is no date anywhere near it. So it could be applied at any time. Has anyone else any samples of this?

[m55dlc]

I think its a stamp, and it is always dated. Look to the right of it and you'll see a date in the format 00-00-00. I've got one of those on my pre-contractual web app dump, before the application form was even printed, and they are attempting to say this is a signature that makes it executed.

[m55dlc]

Hi Guys,

 

MBNA are driving me crazy !!!

Please can you help me with some advice?

 

The charmers unfairly defaulted me last year when I was battling with them re penalty charges, I had advised MBNA that I was/am in Dispute and that I ceased making payments.

 

I sent the Company Secretary a surlybonds letter plus an S10 DPA notice.

However, they refuse to remove the adverse data from my CRA file!

 

I have also made a request under the CCA 1974 for a true signed copy of the executed Agreement between MBUSA and myself, plus a request fro a copy of the true certified default notice.

 

MBNA have not sent me a copy of my Agreement, instead I was sent a microfiche copy of my the torn of bottom section of my credit card application form with none of the prescribed terms and they cannot supply me with the copy default notice. Therefore MBNA are now in criminal default of the CCA.

 

I sent them the following letter, which has been ignored:-

 

 

"Mr. Gavin Theobald

Customer Advocates Office Manager

Insurance Services Department

MBNA Europe Bank Limited

Chester Business Park

Chester

CH4 9YR

Dear Mr. Theobald,

REQUEST UNDER THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

Thank you for your response to my letter dated 13 December 2006. Unfortunately this does not fulfill your obligations under the above request for a number of reasons. I therefore I must inform you that MBNA are still to comply with my original request, as specified under section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

There are a number of issues with the document you have provided to me, primarily (but not limited to) the fact that this is a torn off section of an application form, not an agreement, it does not have all the prescribed items present, it contains a large proportion of illegible text due to the quality of the copy and does not contain a copy of the applicable terms and conditions.

May I also remind you, that you must supply me with the signed true and certified copy of the default that you state was sent to me, showing my address and proof of posting, a default that you have unlawfully registered against me with the Credit Reference Agencies.

You are now required to remove any data relating to me (The Data Subject) that you have supplied to any Credit Reference Agencies in its entirety. This request is made in accordance with the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77 – 79).

In addition I have already served MBNA with Statutory Notices to cease and desist from disclosing my personal data pursuant to Sections 10 and 12 The Data Protection Act 1998.

For the avoidance of doubt, I enclose a further Statutory Notice pursuant to Sections 10 and 12 of The Data Protection Act 1998 – Data Subject Notice.

Take notice, that I have withdrawn my consent from MBNA Europe Bank Limited to process my data. Therefore, I demand that you (MBNA) cease to disclose any data to any third party including, but not restricted to, Equifax plc, Experian Ltd, Callcredit plc and;

Instruct Equifax plc, Experian Ltd and Callcredit plc to remove all data pertaining to your records on me, to the extent that no data entry in relation to MBNA Europe Bank Limited will exist on my credit files.

Furthermore, I intend to issue legal action against MBNA for the mis-selling of my Payment Protection Insurance and associated Unlawful Penalty Charges plus compounded interest Please take notice that I will petition the Court to have the Unwarranted, Unjustified Default removed from my Credit Reference Agency Credit file if you fail to remove it.

I hope that I have made my position clear and expect a written confirmation from you acknowledging the contents of this letter within 5 working days, as per the requirements of section 15.3 of The Banking Code.

 

Yours sincerely".

 

Okay guy's, I hope that you can understand but now the plot thickens...!

 

MBNA refuse to remove the unwarranted default, they have not complied with my CCA request and guess what?

 

Two days ago another default Notice drops through my letterbox dated 20 March 2007

 

"- IMPORTANT - YOU SHOULD READ THIS CAREFULLY

DEFAULT NOTICE - Served under section 87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Clause 3 of your agreement provides that you must repay immediately the amount of arrears on the account. You are in breach of that clause because you have failed to make payment and are seriously in arrears. A stop has been placed on your card.

 

In order to remedy the breach we must receive a payment of £680.4 by 1 April 2007, or we will terminate your account and issue court proceedings".

 

ooh, is this an early April fool, firstly MBNA I do not have an MBNA credit card for you to place a stop on because you confiscated it in Aug 2003, secondly, I will not pay you one penny because I do not acknowledge the alleged debt.

 

Incidentally, I have not informed MBNA that they are also in breach of the CCA S85, I would appreciate it if someone could give me a link to the correct wording for the S85 Notice.

 

Sorry this is so long but I am sure that you can understand that I need some help here

 

Love AC

 

AC, if they state a date of less than 14 days for compliance, they are breaking the law. This default notice is not worth the paper it is printed on and is unenforceable

[Rhia]

I think its a stamp, and it is always dated. Look to the right of it and you'll see a date in the format 00-00-00. I've got one of those on my pre-contractual web app dump, before the application form was even printed, and they are attempting to say this is a signature that makes it executed.

Yes I have one of those and you are correct. The date precedes the date of the application form and mine is definitely an application form. Thnaks for that.

[The Phantom]

Have read this with interest, my CCA request is up (12 + 30 days) on 5th of April

with MBNA ( A&L CC)

One question: if they do not provide it, I take further steps like report them to Trading STandards for their offence, ask for consolidation etc etc

And once that is all settled, can they then wait until 2008 when this section of the CCa is repelled completely and then pursue us all again ? May this all be in vain when the Act changes next year ?

I was told (and I hope this is correct) that he CCA changes in April this year affecting all new Credit Agreements and as from 2008 all agreements will be affected by the changes. So is this a potential pit fall ? Or did I misunderstand something ?:-?