Frederick1 Vs HSBC

[Frederick1]

Prelim letter sent 06th March 2007

[givememymoney]

Good luck make sure you stick to your timescales and get the LBA ready. Also worth noting that it is likely you will get an offer for less than you are claiming in the next few weeks. You will need to make a decision to accept or not but you can get the full amount back if you follow the process and do the reading to make sure you know where you are.

[Frederick1]

LBA sent 20th March 2007

[lateralus]

won't be long to the filing stage - take a good look at your statements to see if you've missed anything out as the filing is the last point you could add or change things without a messy amendment to fill out.

spend this next bit of waiting time - reading other threads and also open an account with mcol - proceed through to the particulars and start working on them to get them the way you want - here is a brill post to help: Getting MCOL Right

also, i'll send you a copy of my particulars - then you'll have a couple to follow.

[Frederick1]

thanks for the help thus far.

 

I have just completed the N1 form & printed 3 copies of the schedule of charges.

 

I will take 1 copy of both to the County court with a cheque today

 

I will retain 1 copy for my information

 

Do I send the other copy with a covering letter to the HSBC Registered address?

[lateralus]

yes, in about a week or 10 days when you get the acknowledgment - the addy will be on page 2. first you'll get a notice of issue - that's the date you count from.

[Frederick1]

I see, Thanks for the help sir

[freakyleaky]

I see, Thanks for the help sir

 

 

Eh-hem!!!

Lattie is a laydeeeee:)

[Frederick1]

Eh-hem!!!

Lattie is a laydeeeee:)

 

Oops, no offence. My apologies

 

The Notice of Issue states

 

"Your claim was issued on 03 May 2007. The court sent it to the defendant by first class post on 03rd May 2007 and it will be deemed to be served on 05 May 2007. The defendant has until 21st May 2007 to reply."

 

It's now the 30th May so what do I do? - Do I call the court to see if HSBC have submitted a defence?

 

Apologies for all of the questions!

[lateralus]

that was just the first 14 days - if they acknowledge - they get another 14 - . you should have have a notice of acknowledgment - if you haven't - i'd ring the court to see if they've acknowledged.

 

they most likely will have - and so you need to send dg a copy of your breakdown with a reference to your claim number to be attached to your file - although with n1 the courts probably sent them one - dg will eventually ask (it's a stalling tactic) so just send them one.

[Frederick1]

Thanks for the info lateralus..

 

I have just phoned the court and they said they sent me some info out but I never received it..

 

Apparently HSBC have filed an acknowledgement of claim and have until the 2nd June to submit their defence. I'm hoping they fail to do so so I can request judgement.

 

One slight problem in that I go on holiday Sat for 2 weeks... Couldn't have worked that out better eh?!

 

Roll on Saturday

[lateralus]

unless someone is checking the mail for you and also checking with the court - i think you'll just have to put it on hold til you return.

that could be good (i always find a silver lining!) as when you return - you'll know what's going on - if nothing from the courts - then ring the court first chance you get to see if they've defended and if not - ask what you should do next - chances are they will have - even if late - and it will be accepted. it's quite normal - but then you can start sending nudge letters to dg - as per my 2 aq threads in my signature.

have a nice holiday - just forget about it - it will still be here when you get back.

[Frederick1]

unless someone is checking the mail for you and also checking with the court - i think you'll just have to put it on hold til you return.

that could be good (i always find a silver lining!) as when you return - you'll know what's going on - if nothing from the courts - then ring the court first chance you get to see if they've defended and if not - ask what you should do next - chances are they will have - even if late - and it will be accepted. it's quite normal - but then you can start sending nudge letters to dg - as per my 2 aq threads in my signature.

have a nice holiday - just forget about it - it will still be here when you get back.

 

Some good advice there as ever

 

As you predicted, I returned from holiday to find an acknowledgement of service dated 09/05/07 stating DG soliciters in Birmingham intend to defend all of the claim.

 

I also received 15th June 2007 a letter from hmcs telling me something about small claims mediation services.

 

On the second page it states I must complete an allocation questionnaire on or before the 2nd July (kinda missed that date by being on holiday). It also states I must pay another £100.00

 

Their defence states the following:

 

1. The claimants account is govourned by the defendants personal and/or business banking terms and conditions

2. Persuant to the defendants terms and conditions the Defendant is entitled to make a charge for it's services as set out in the Defendants price list, including an overdraft review fee for considering whether to provide and providing an overdraft.

3. The Defendant denies that the charges applied to the Claimant's account amount to penalties at common law and/or unfair contract terms for the purposes of unfair Terms in Consumer Regulations 1999 (UTCCR's)

4. The charges applied to the Claimant's account are reasonable and are properly and fully disclosed in the defendant's terms and conditions and published price list. The charges represent the contractually agreed price for the services provided and under the UTCCR's are not applicable to them;alternatively,they are not unfair contrary to the UTCCR's. Further, the charges are not default charges and,accordingly,cannot amount to a penalty.

5. Save as set out above, each and every allegation made by the claimant is denied. For the reasons set out above, it is denied that the claimant is entitled to the relief claimed, or any relief.

 

I'm going to have to phone the courts I gather on Monday to see if I can still complete the allocation questionnaire.

 

I was kind of hoping this would have been sorted alot quicker but I guess it's just one of those things

 

As ever, any advice or general pointing in the right direction would be much apreciated

 

Frederick

[lateralus]

you haven't missed it at all - you fill it in this weekend and get it to the court - by hand - by 4pm on monday with your cheque - right on time.

 

here's how to fill it in -

aq info:

Allocation Questionnaires - A guide to completion

this is your step by step completion guide -and here is:New strategy for Allocation Questionaires

and here is how to use it:

for section g of the n149 (section h on the n150), use the wording in blue on post #3 of new strategy link, and then attach draft order for directions - use wording on post #2 of new strategy link(the bit in blue) making sure to add your name and court claim number to all pages. simple as that. just follow the steps with these two minor additions. the draft order is just asking the judge to order both parties to lay out their wares within 14 days of him ordering it - so it shortens the length of the time to a court date - and as dg/hsbc/all banks don't want to do it - they will pay up by offer or just not file their aq in which case you also win.

 

 

 

 

it will take about 30 minutes to get it done - no need to be late - if you can't do it monday - surely someone will hand it in for you??

no need to be late -

if you've questions - we are here to help.

i'd say perfect timing!

[Frederick1]

2nd July... My mistake! - I'm still in Mexico holiday mode!

 

Thanks for the pointers, I'll get on with it straight away

[Frederick1]

Right, it's all filled out and ready to go. After some searching of this fine forum (what I should have done first!) I have found some information on the new strategy, and have decided this is the route for me.

 

My question for those that have dealt with HSBC in this way, and relating to the points raised by the defense above is which section would it be best I use?

 

The first statement is to be used if your bank has defended the claim on the basis that the charges are a legitimate contractual service charge - Ie. Lloyds TSB

 

The second statement is to be used if the bank has defended on the basis that the charges are proportionate to, or a pre-estimate of, their actual losses - Ie. Abbey

 

One or two banks don't plead in detail as to why their charges are not a penalty, only that they were debited in accordance with the T&C's, etc - Ie. Barclay's. If this is the case, this statement would be the most suitible - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclays-bank/36692-peter-rabbit-barclays-2.html#post492578

 

Please think carefully about what does or does'nt apply to your own particular claim and amend as necessary. Similarly, if you can think of any more evidence relevant to your claim, add that in too.

 

Usual disclaimer applies - Im not a lawyer (far from it!) and the following is just my interpretation which I prepared for my claim and that I have amended to be relevant to others. Its offered without liability.

 

text in black - template

text in red - guide notes

text in blue - examples. Replace with your own information.

 

'SERVICE CHARGE' STATEMENT -

This next statement is suitable for claims in which the defence contends that the charges are proportionate to or a pre-estimate of their actual loss.

 

Again, think carefully about what applies to your claim and amend to suit if necessary.

 

Text in black - template

Text in red - guide notes

Text in blue - examples, replace with your own.

 

'GENUINE PRE-ESTIMATE' STATEMENT -

 

Remember that all settled cases and statutes are to be submitted for direction d)

[lateralus]

that is the witness statement - it is a part of the draft order in that it is what you are asking the judge to make into a direction -

that the four items comprising the bundle be asked for much earlier.

 

you don't need to print anything out except as i've outlined above

 

in section g of the n149(or h if it is the n150) you use the wording in the blue section of post 3 of the new strategy link - then you copy out the section in blue of post 2 of the same link on another piece of paper -

that part is the draft direction for order. and you attach that to your allocation questionaire. just follow the steps i put above.

 

 

 

if the judge were to grant it - then you would need to print out the bundle including the witness statement (by the way for hsbc - it is letter 1 the service charge defence.)

[Frederick1]

Good evening all

 

I got a letter on 30th July with some bad news..

 

"Upon the courts own initiative.

 

The claim is stayed until further order and pending the decision in the high court as to whether the charges amount to a penalty or are unlawful.

 

Liberty to either party to apply for removal of the stay.

 

A party affected by this order may within 7 days of service of it upon him apply to the court to have it set aside,varied or stayed."

 

I'm going to submit this letter tomorrow which I found on the forum

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/17065-application-removal-stay-updated.html#post1046820

 

Fingers crossed I can get the stay removed

[Frederick1]

Well, it looks like things are going to get a little more interesting!

 

I attended the court within the 7 day time period to contest the stay, and had to fill in a form. I was also charged £35 for the honour

 

I got a letter on Monday to tell me the stay had been lifted and that I now have a court date for the 2nd November!

 

I am a little worried now as you would expect at the prospect of standing in front of the court and proving HSBC's charges are unlawful but fingers crossed and with the help of this great forum I'll end up with a positive result.

 

There was unfortunately no mention of the draught order for consideration which I had submitted with the earlier AQ, but it's still a positive result!

 

I have a feeling I'm going to be very busy the next few weeks!

[Castlebest]

Well done Fred !!! as far as I'm aware this now puts you back on track with your claim so any directions you have received (the claimant shall.... ) you now need to comply with.

 

pete

[lateralus]

it's very early days with respect to watching what happens when the stay is lifted but - in theory at least - it should signal an offer by dg before that date, (i think). make sure you have everything in - as pete said - check those directions carefully to see what is expected of you (and them - and if they don't make a deadline - send a letter to the judge and ask for a judgment against them)

[Frederick1]

Thanks for the advice lateralus, As far as I can make out the court have not specified any specific directions other than to give me the court date. I am starting to put together the court bundle today as I know it's rather a hefty document.

 

What are peoples opinions on submitting it early so that D&G know I mean business..?

 

Frederick

[Castlebest]

I don't think DG will do anything until they are forced to by the court and even then they will try to fight it, I would think they are under instruction to stop everything.

 

My thoughts are the later the better so they don't get a chance to read what your going to say (if they bother to read anything thats sent to them) so aim for about 14 days before your court date.

 

pete

[lateralus]

i think anything you send to them is the signal for them to initiate the request for the stay - so, i agree with pete - the later the better - just check those court directions and get it to dg as late as possible and still be within the directions. and get the letter arguing against a stay ready and i'd think send it with the court's copy of the bundle - pete, you agree?

[Castlebest]

I dont see why the stay letter shouldnt form part of the bundle. I recently sent in an AQ for a credit card (which is slightly different because I'm claiming under common law alone) but the first paragraph of my AQ statement was:

 

No part of the of the Commercial Court proceedings between the OFT and the Defendant (and seven others) comprised in Claim No. 2007 Folio 1186. has any baring or will interact with or affect the common law basis of this claim.

 

I dont see why you shouldnt add the stay appeal letter into your bundle slightly edited in a new section of its own headed something like:

 

 

Effects of Commercial Court proceedings comprised in Claim No. 2007 Folio 1186.

 

Would be interested to hear the mod's views on doing that that too.

 

pete