do you have to pay parking tickets from private companies

[MalMonroe]

I love this endearing view people have of us(just some guy in his house).

 

Whilst some of the smaller outlets may run this way, the major players such as myself have a fully-fledged office and a dedicated team of staff to help people with their parking.

 

Smelling a rat here, folks! Or even a TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take no notice!

[MalMonroe]

*Sigh*

 

The misinformation on this site has become something of a virus. etc...

Well, Geral, that may well be the case BUT your attitude of superior condescension irritates me greatly.

It does NOT MATTER who said what, what precedent has been set where, who did this, that or the other to whom and why. What matters to me is the great support I have received from some of the people on this site.

When I parked at Excel in Sheffield way back in January, I paid and displayed and three weeks later I received notification advising me that I had not. That was untrue and incorrect. I did not hold onto my parking ticket and I do not believe that to be anything strange.

Who are YOU, troll-like person, to come on here and *sigh* and tell us the ins and outs of the law???! I know my rights and if I have to go to court to defend myself, then so be it. If I receive a fine, then I shall pay it, and if the bailiffs come, then they will come.

Every case is different, everyone KNOWS that, but the fact is that Excel have just LOST in court because the judge ruled their charges ILLEGAL. And it is NOT the first case they have lost.

There is no way that I would try to ‘get out of’ any fines if I had done anything wrong but I have not and I have written proof of that and copies of letters revealing information not given to me but given to my MP. I am confident that I will not lose in court. But I will have to wait and see. I’m not scared of court because I did nothing wrong. I have prepared for a court case and am now waiting for a summons.

[lamma]

Mal,

I expect it will be a very long wait for a summons - despite Geral's opinions.

If you do get one count yourself lucky - take 'em down and bring a costs statement with you so they can pay you on the day.

[Steve__M]

Geral,

 

What you say is questionable when we have reports here of a number of private tickets actually claiming to be penalties, a number of situations when the person was legally parked (such as Mal), a number of situations when the registered keeper was certainly not the driver, a number of situations when the signage is clearly inadequate or wrong or unlawful, and a number of situations where the parking company has pursued the alleged driver in an unlawful manner (like your friend Mark did).

 

Since all these situations involve people like your colleages insisting that they are right and the "offender" is wrong, the best advice has to be to insist on an impartial arbiter - and the courts are the only option.

 

The empirical truth is that parking companies have a sufficient number of hurdles to overcome their case that it is not worth it to pursue them in court. Therefore they often rely on unlawful methods to scare people into to pay up. If you do not pay up, they will eventually go away.

 

So whatever the legal case may be in each individual circumstance, nobody should pay an inflated charge to a private parking company if they don't feel they should. They should simply ask the company to cancel the charge or prove it in court.

 

Even if you lose, your costs will probably be lower, and they will in part go to the court rather than to the profits of the parking company.

[lamma]

their 'claim' lies in contract and the amount claimed always far exceeds any claimed damages (even if a contract existed - which it doesn't) - which for a free car park are zero in any case. Clearly a penalty - end of.

How many of these PPCs do anything that actually solves any parking problems ? (Ans = none). The PPCs know its a Con, the PPC defenders know its a Con.

Both sides know how the Con works and how it fails.

Why argue about it ? save time by just responding to genuine posts from potential victims of the PPCs.

[PPC $ cambuster]

*Sigh*

 

 

One or two legal types suggest some arguments which *MIGHT* work in *SOME* court cases. This has then spread to the sheep of the site who regurgitate it on a daily basis.

 

The fact is, however, that except the excel case(which was more based on inadequate signage) nobody can show cases where these arguments have been used before a judge.

 

1) Failing to identify the driver.

It's very misguided to think that you can get out of a charge by doing this. If a judge is aware that you are being obstructive by doing this, they can and do rule against you.

 

2)Penalty clauses are unenforceable.

Yes, they are, but parking company regulations do not amount to "penalties".

 

Excel's case was a situation where Mark just got greedy.

 

In reality, the charges are what you have agreed to pay by parking in a particular place. "Damages" do not come into it. It is essentially the same as a credit agreement in that you have agreed to pay a particular amount.

 

 

 

The only sheep here would be the PPCs who would be "lambs to the slaughter IF the ever went to court against a PROPERLT defended case>i

 

 

 

nobody can show cases where these arguments have been used before a judge.

and you have failed YET AGAIN to show where a PROPERLY defended case has been won by a PPC, if it is that easy to win you should be able to quote dozens of actual cases

Failing to identify the driver.

It's very misguided to think that you can get out of a charge by doing this. If a judge is aware that you are being obstructive by doing this, they can and do rule against you.

then why do your invoices carry the lie that the "owner is responsible" your comical paperwork is NOT a section 172 request and therefore has no standing in law, the right to silence is still applicable and a judge would draw no inference to it being invoked

 

Excel's case was a situation where Mark just got greedy

 

You are ALL greedy, the supposed Charges you try to levy are way in excess of any imagined or real loss

 

 

the charges are what you have agreed to pay by parking in a particular place. "Damages" do not come into it. It is essentially the same as a credit agreement in that you have agreed to pay a particular amount.

 

 

except in a credit agrement you have actually signed to say you accept and agree to the charges rather than just having an unsolicited begging letter stuck to the window of your car.

Your abject failure to quote actual cases (ie- courts, dates, case numbers) where a PPC has actually won a properly defended case show that you protestations are nothing more than a feeble attempt to keep up the lie that your invoices have any legal standing and you must be feeling the pinch as the word gets out that the PPC business model is based on little more than a cheap [problem]

[MalMonroe]

Well, Lamma, the notice I've received states 'failure to pay WILL result in court action', not 'MAY result...'. Thus, I am taking it seriously but am well-prepared for any court appearance, as I say.

 

There's not much point arguing with people like 'Geral' (is he/she for real?) because no-one knows what is going to happen, or the outcome. I just know that I now have proof positive that I did pay and display and don't have to rely on a case of my word against theirs.

 

What I do know is that the 'parking charge notice' I received was meant to replicate a 'penalty charge notice' which is a totally different, and law enforceable document.

 

Let them take me to court, and let them lose!!

[DeafSteve]

 

C)(The most common) The defendant not wishing to proceed to court and paying the amount they owe.

 

If this were true why are you on here sounding so rattled?

[MalMonroe]

Geral, you are taking utter nonsense and I still think you are a TROLL!!!

The defendant in my case (me) owes nothing and will be paying nothing before any court case. Plus, I am not scared of going to court on any count. I've defended two cases in the past and have lost none. I'm counting on being third time lucky, especially as I have some good, sensible, intellectual evidence. Yay!! So get lost, willya?!

[Steve__M]

Geral Spencer nee Skintelbinger nee Fiddlepot,

 

You may be trolling, but it's useful to point out the errors in your specious postings:

 

Many people here bemoan a lack of court cases. This is due to either:

 

A)The defendant allowing a judgement to go uncontested.

 

B)The company failing to turn up at court.

 

C)(The most common) The defendant not wishing to proceed to court and paying the amount they owe.

 

I suspect D) is more common than C, but am prepared to believe that D+C are the most common:

 

D) The person not wishing to proceed to court pays the amount the PPC claims they owe, due to the PPCs unlawful threats and scares (that mostly they don't follow through on).

 

There is also E).

 

E) PPCs rarely if ever issue claims, because it would be costly, and because in most cases the PPC knows it is in the wrong and it would therefore damage the image of the PPC to lose cases.

[Barnsley Boy]

I don't propose to waste time engaging directly with Geral Spencer. As one the "sheep" of this site, I've faced down 10 of these "charges" [2 for me and a further 8 for extended family & friends].

 

Sheep 10 Geral [Perry Mason] Nil

 

If a "sheep" is capable of that, imagine what one of the legal eagles could do.

 

No wonder old Geral is rattled!

[lamma]

Well, Lamma, the notice I've received states 'failure to pay WILL result in court action', not 'MAY result...'. Thus, I am taking it seriously but am well-prepared for any court appearance, as I say.

 

There's not much point arguing with people like 'Geral' (is he/she for real?) because no-one knows what is going to happen, or the outcome. I just know that I now have proof positive that I did pay and display and don't have to rely on a case of my word against theirs.

 

What I do know is that the 'parking charge notice' I received was meant to replicate a 'penalty charge notice' which is a totally different, and law enforceable document.

 

Let them take me to court, and let them lose!!

 

now that is the way to deal with them, well done.

re Steve_M's E) reason. I would rephrase it - they don't want many/any real cases as it it would 'blow the gaff' and all their 'mates' in the industry would be really hacked off with them for helping to kill the golden goose they live off.

[PPC $ cambuster]

Many people here bemoan a lack of court cases. This is due to either:

 

A)The defendant allowing a judgement to go uncontested.

 

B)The company failing to turn up at court.

 

C)(The most common) The defendant not wishing to proceed to court and paying the amount they owe.

 

 

The trouble for Geral and his [EDIT] mates is that as more and more motorists are alerted to the fact that PPC invoices are unenforcible and are nothing more than begging letters which will not actually proceed to court if fought with a robust defence, options A and C are happening a lot less which is why he is on this site with his several aliases trying to stem the inevitable tide of non payers for these invoices, I think a better alias for him would be King Canute!!

 

The word is spreading fast and Geral and his mates will soon be looking for a new way to con a living as the PPC scams days are coming to an end :o

[GuidoT]

Please do not feed the troll, once it realises it is not getting any attention, it will hide back under the bridge where it came from.

[MrPeevedOfEdinburgh]

Hi guys.

 

Im a forum posting newbie so hopefully i have used the correct etiquitte here (but possiby the wrong spelling )

 

I've just spent the last couple of hours reading thru your threads and im now a lot happier now than when i found my car had been stickered.(a generous reduction to £60 if paid within 14 days or £85 after 14days)

 

From what i have read, there appears to be a pretty good template letter to send back to these companies.

 

For my own peace of mind, could you possibly clarify:

 

1. Do these laws/rights cover Scotland as well as the rest of the UK.

 

2. DO I HAVE A RIGHT TO APPEAL?

 

i parked on what i believed to be public grounds in Edinburgh. The public road leading to/thru/from the area is cobbled, as is the area where i parked. i know for a fact that at least SOME of the road is public unrestricted parking. where i parked is completely cobbled and there are no visable markings to show if it is private ground(or any distinction between road/pavement).

 

Across the road however i did notice a sign(partially obscured by scalffolding) saying something about "private land" and "the right to remove of fine folk". it did not indicate how far these private parkign rights extended.

 

where i was parked, there are NO signs to show private parking.

 

oh yeah, i am the registed owner/keeper of the car and i was driving it(but dont know how they could even prove it)

 

On the "licence to print money and harrass people"/parking charge the reason is NO PERMIT. it was issues by Central Ticketing/Central Ticketing Ltd with an edinburgh address.

 

Im hoping that somebdy can clarify that i dont have to pay and that one of the previous template letters can be used. also out of interest, do they have to advise where their boundaries lie?

 

Many thanks in advance and apologies if this is covering old ground and you're having to repeat yourself.

 

Cheers

 

Mr Peeved

[Barnsley Boy]

Hi Peeved,

 

Sorry that someone with Scotland specific knowledge has not answered your post. My understanding is that, although there are differences, the priniciples of contract law and relevent legislation is sufficiently similar for the template letters to be used successfully. They do not mention specific legislation.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/138281-help-parking-charge-ppc.html?highlight=scotland

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/139189-civil-enforcement-scotland-advice.html?highlight=scotland

[Axisixa]

First and foremost I'd like to say what a fantastic site this is, full of great advice regarding PPC's PNC's.

 

I do however have a few concerns regarding following through with this advise. To briefly summarize what happened to me yesterday; I received a PNC under my window wiper after returning to my car after 3 hrs in a Euro Car Parks patrolled carpark at Homebase in Newcastle Under Lyme. The max stay at this car park is 1.5 hrs, but chose to stay longer as I was with a friend who'd parked 10 mins before and told me he saw no one patrolling and was adamant we wouldn't get a ticket, i trusted his judgement as he lives in the area and parks there frequently. (Incidentally my friend was extremely lucky and didn't get a ticket.)

 

While I admit to parking there for too long (the ticket has recorded me to be there for 2hrs 11mins), I refuse to fork out £50 of my hard earned cash in way of compensation. There's just no way this reflects any loses the land owner or the PPC have made due to my actions. This is why I signed up to this forum after reading through hundreds of posts for 8 hours yesterday.

 

My concerns are these:

1: Have searched extensively through this site, I've found little evidence of anyone documenting a "win" against these **** bags. Whether that be the PPC just giving up, not showing up at court, or loosing the case at court. Sure people have documented various stages (letters received/sent) of the process but never seem to follow through with a conclusion. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.

 

2: I've never been 100% committed to following advice given in a FORUM as there's no official standpoint in law. While the advice seems logical and makes a great deal of sense, to which I applaud you all, there are plenty of disclaimers regarding the info given.

 

3: If PPC's are indeed operating a borderline legal extortion racket, why have I not found any websites with any kind a official weight behind them? (BBC, Martin Lewis, Governmental, Which?)

 

I did consider sending ECP a cheque for £25 claiming I felt this was a fair amount for my mistake and saying by accepting and cashing the cheque would constitute and end to the matter. To be honest I can't be doing with the anxiety, stress and worry of waiting for the 'threatening' letters to arrive on my doorstep and just feel like paying the full amount to get rid of them, but by the same token, I am very angry about this and want to put up a fight.

 

HELP!!!!!! What should I do???? Can anyone give advise on any of the concerns I have??

 

Many thanks

[MalMonroe]

Hi Axisixa

The thing about your Parking (as opposed to legally enforceable Penalty) Charge Notice is that you actually did overstay your welcome. If you had done this in a council owned car park the fine would be very difficult to evade. I'm not sure of the ins and outs of challenging your particular notice but in my case, I had actually paid and displayed but later received a parking charge notice from Excel parking in Sheffield. I am still fighting their demand for payment and their latest step has been to send me a final demand prior to court action. There is of course this (being called a landmark) case -

Judge quashes £300 parking fine...because it set out to ‘frighten and intimidate’ driver | the Mail on Sunday

and I guess every one is different. I would never have set out to challenge the parking company had I not paid and displayed but because I had, and was still 'charged', I decided to fight their pompous, incorrect and trumped up charges. Is there a reduction on your ticket if you pay within 7 days? There usually is. You did overstay your welcome a bit (double) - but good luck if you decide to challenge!

[Axisixa]

Thanks very much for the feed back MalMonroe. I appreciate it. I'd noticed your name crop up a lot in the forums. You give a lot of good advice. Although I tend to agree that I may have taken to mick a little, I still think charging someone £50 (going up to £70) is a bit of a sting. After all Homebase only lost 1 FREE parking space for a little longer than expected.

 

Do you think I may get anywhere with sending a cheque for a smaller amount stating if they cash it, its case closed? I will have a look at the land mark state you mention in your post.

 

Thanks again for a swift responce.

[lamma]

their charge is clearly a penalty and unenforceable IMV

 

Have you seen much evidence of anyone documenting a loss with a PPC ? ?

as for a win besides the recent Excel case there are numerous others where the PPC tries it on in all the way to and then fails to turn up (for some strange reason since up till then they all came on very strong and been VERY sure of themselves.... but that is just part of their 'trick' as we all know and is revealed by real cases with proper defenses.).

there is also this

Honest John's agony column - Telegraph

see the 'Glad id Knight' story at bottom of page.

 

PPC invoices are a house of cards - one small puff of wind in the right place and it collapses. The PPCs know this, why else do think there are so many obvious misleading posts here from what are obviously the PPCs themselves ?

Every seen any honest and truthful documentation/letters sent to victims from ANY of the PPCs ?

No you have not and neither has anyone else. This lack of honesty and openness is somewhat telling don't you think ?

Also AIUI the Fraud Act 2006 extended the definition of fraud from knowingly giving false information to knowingly withholding relevant information - which seems to open up some interesting possibilities....

[Axisixa]

You're right, Lamma. There is not much documentation withing this forum of anyone loosing. Swings and roundabouts I guess. The Glad is Knight story your reference is interesting. Having seen a few more documented cases of victims taking the bull by the horns and fighting these money grabbing scabs, I feel a lot more confident in ignoring the ticket and waiting for a response by ECP.

[scaniaman]

Please help. Can anyone give me all info. on responses to reporting to 1. police. 2.trading standards. 3. Cab. How do these template letters work under Scottish law.?

[dloper]

Hello other scottish victims - My letter, posted here on April 21st was printed in last Fridays Northern Scot. I've since had several people in the same position saying they won't pay either. Don't lose your nerve!

 

I also posted that B&Qs Elgin car park Parking Eye notices now warn people that cars are liable to be towed at a cost of £350, plus £50 per day storage.

 

Someone (sorry I can't find the original post) posted that this might be parking companies upping the ante in response to so many people refusing to pay 'penalties'. I will try not to shop in places where this type of extortion is used as a business model. However, if my car is towed I will visit the yard, wherever this might be, and if absolutely necessary I am willing to use reasonable force to retrieve my property without forking out any money. If the parking company has a problem with this, then they can take me to court. Why should they have the upper hand in a dispute?

 

I wonder how I'd stand legally here. Maybe I should report it stolen. I suspect that if I went to the yard and the police were called due to my insistance that, no matter what, I was going to drive it away, they might say 'It's a civil dispute, take it to court. If you use force to remove your car, we'll bust you for breach of the peace, and malicious mischief if you break the lock on the gate'.

[lamma]

moving to vehicle removal is probably the next stage in the game for clampers as and when clamping gets the same legal status in england as it has in scotland.

 

if the PPCs try it I can see some interesting court cases coming up...and several ways the field of play may pan out. Not least would be sure fire criminal convictions for the towers - and no I will not go into details about the how and why of that..

Unless and until it becomes an issue I would say don't worry about it too much at all - if at all.

[pin1onu]

moving to vehicle removal is probably the next stage in the game for clampers as and when clamping gets the same legal status in england as it has in scotland.

I can't see it going that way although it might.

 

Clamping in England and Wales is unlikely to receive the same status as in Scotland. Unfortunately we've existing case law in England and Wales (Anker and Vine).

 

Added to that towing is licensable activity under the PSI Act and Regs. That wonderful piece of legislation has given dubious legal status to the activities of the clamping and towing firms. .

 

The main reason a lot of the PPCs don't indulge in this activity is that it costs money as the operatives and the directors/principals have to be trained and licensed. Also I suspect a there would be a good proportion of those who would fall foul of the licensing conditions owing to a criminal record.