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    • Court hearing today. WON on all counts of claim. The win though is not the interesting bit, but the ‘why’ is really useful. We were allocated 90 minutes but it took two hours by telephone . The defense were represented but I failed to note whether by a solicitor, barrister or other advocate.   As soon as the judge finished the introductions and before he had time to pass the time over to me to explain my case, the defense interrupted and asked the claim be struck out. He then spent the next 40 minutes discussing with the judge that I had failed to properly serve my bundle upon which I intended to rely. The judge asked me to explain and I said I had served the bundle to them and the court 3 days before the deadline, by signed for post with a tracking number to the address named in the summons being the Royal Mail Head Office in London. I said it was a bit rich that they were making this request when they had failed to serve me and the court with their bundle within the deadline and that I had only just received it. They quoted a certain principle of law (which I failed to write down) which explained that service of documents must be made to the address which either party may request service to be made. They claimed that six months earlier when they lodged their defense to my summons, the covering letter had been sent from their Sheffield office and it constituted the address for future service of documents. I of course had no idea of such a requirement and said that a simple letter heading on a piece of correspondence was not the same as a formal sentence in a letter requesting such future service. It gave the judge some concern but he decided to park the issue and allow the hearing to continue.   I was able to explain my case for the £50 compensation for the lost parcel using the evidence from the defense bundle referencing the Overseas Post Scheme. It was all straight forward. I explained the facts and let them speak for themselves. I then moved on to the delayed Special Delivery items. This is where the fun began because I had to argue against their terms and conditions. I used the defense bundle referencing the UK Post Scheme. I quoted from various clauses which explained the rules relating to claims. That ALL delay claims must be made within 3 months, then that Special Delivery was actually 14 days so not 3 months after all, then another clause which confirmed the deadline was 3 months for all delay claims. I quoted further that these were “common terms” and that some services (Special Delivery was one) had additional terms which were called “specific terms”. Another clause stated that where a conflict arises between common and specific terms, then specific terms took priority. So I turned to the Special Delivery section to quote the specific terms as these would have priority. There was only one term that referenced claims. It simply said If we do not succeed in attempting to deliver by this time (being the next day) we will refund your postage. I used this single phrase to take priority over the 3 months  or 14 day deadline mentioned in the common terms. I discussed how the various clauses conflicted with themselves as if the clauses themselves did not know what the deadlines were and how ambiguous and confusing it was.   The time was then past to the defense and he started to argue there was no contract nor liability in tort (a substantial portion of their written defense document and bundle discussed this argument). It made me smile because I was ready for that. The judge though was ahead of the game and (especially because 40 minutes had been wasted at the beginning) he did not want to hear of it. After about one minute, he stopped the defense by saying exactly what I was preparing to say. Simply that I was not suing under contract or tort but under the conditions of the various postal schemes for which they were liable. He asked the defense to answer my claims. The defense then prevaricated trying to argue the clause that distinctly mentioned the 14 day time limit within which to make a claim for delay (which of course it did) ( as an aside, most people might accept that deadline and not bother to pursue a claim). He had nothing to add about the lost parcel.   Time had run out, we had no questioning and the judge said he was summing up. He was quite happy I had served my documents sufficiently well and took the view that the defense had fallen foul of the court order so he was cancelling out the question about valid service. He had no difficulty in accepting the claim that the lost parcel was valid and awarded me the £50 compensation. He then spoke at longer length about the delay claims and the conflict in the clauses. (at this point I had no idea which way this bit would go). Then, he spoke of how a business such as Royal Mail should not be accepting clauses in their contracts which were clearly inconsistant. (that’s when I started to relax), (and then the best takeaway of the hearing), He said that common law provides in the event of a standard contract if there is any ambiguity, the interpretation should be judged against the person drafting the contract. He called it Contra Proferendem. (I had no idea of that concept but had effectively explained it anyway). I was awarded the whole claim plus costs. The defense asked for permission to appeal which was refused.    Remember the phrase “Contra Proferendem” . I shall be looking more into it. I am sure it will come in handy against any institution that have drafted contracts that cannot be individually negotiated. And will certainly be useful for a long while yet against Royal Mail et al.
    • Original loan was £5000 unsecured over 5 years, 28 payments remaining, he wanted to extend it back up to 5 year.........the bank offered him £6700 to clear his credit card and the bank loan, £135 per month from the original figure of £121    One debt of two years old and one debt of 15 months        
    • Probably a good thing in disguise. Its never a good idea to bundle up everything to one creditor.   How big was the loan to be and would it have been secured? And how old are all his other debts? Who says they even enforceable?   Dx
    • My son was offered an extension to his current loan, with Barclays, they saw him as a good risk due to surplus money still in his account each month, the extension was to include his Barclay Card, all finances including external credit loans and personal circumstances were taken into consideration, and they still saw him as a good risk.......   he was declined today....He didn't ask to have his loan extended but they said he was pre approved and they could help him and he would be financially better off, which is true he would be.......apparently his outgoings were to much in relation to his income which is totally rubbish..its only 47% out goings    So we would like to make an official hard hitting complaint   Thanks to all who read my jottings  
    • Can you make them road legal by placing a sticker on them with the relevant info?  Just a thought...
  • Our picks

    • Ebay Packlink and Hermes - destroyed item as it was "damaged". https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/430396-ebay-packlink-and-hermes-destroyed-item-as-it-was-damaged/&do=findComment&comment=5087347
      • 33 replies
    • I sent in the bailiffs to the BBC. They collected £350. It made me smile.
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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
       
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
       
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
       
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
       
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
       
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
       
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
       
       
        • Thanks
    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
      • 1 reply
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hsbc v sbennett ***WON***


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This is for questions relating to my claim will be updated often probably.

 

question 1: i will be moving house in just over a month would i need to send hsbc my forwarding address with the prelim letter? as i am not sending this until after i have moved and opened my parachute account.

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Hi darkrage,

I just wanted to say good luck too. I am about to send my prelim letter along with statements. What is a parachute account?

 

babyashxoxox

 

a parachute account is an account with another bank just incase hsbc do some dirty tricks like closing your accounts down or demanding full repayment of overdrafts etc

 

i have set up another account and am in process of porting all direct debits wages standing orders etc across to my new account.

 

basically im sticking two fingers up at hsbc as they would not help me when i needed it and have left me to struggle until my house move - which is paying all my debt off with the profits and hsbc was told this so tbh hsbc suck only interested in themselves.

 

i am claiming on 1 open account and 1 that was closed 2 yrs ago i just checked all my statements for the open account and thay owe me £1167.00 in 2 yrs so my other closed account should be a higher amount due to having 4 yrs of charges so im guessing they owe me about £3000:eek:

 

good luck with your claim

 

fingers crossed on mine.:D

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Many thanks for that darkrage, I am just asking my daughters to pay bills for me at the moment as not yet opened another account. Applied to first direct but then I think I found out they were part of HSBC.

I hope the move has gone well and that you and your family will be very happy.Good luck with your claims too.

 

babyashxoxox

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Try the Natwest Step account Babyash.. It seems quite easy to open..

 

Uk

Some useful links.

FAQ's

Making Posts

Letter Template Library

Bank Contact Details

AQ Guide to Completion

Court Fees

Data Protection non Compliance

Witness Statements for Court Bundle

Banking Code Website

Limitations Act

Fast Track Costs

A-Z Index

Mis-Claim Tutorial

Step By Step Instructions

 

Remember: The Ark was built by amateurs-The Titanic by professionals.

 

Please click my scales if you find my advice helpful !

 

If your claim is successful, please donate 5% so that it can continue to help others.

 

Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, please seek qualified professional legal Help.

 

WARNING TO ALL

Please be aware of acting on advice given by PM .Anyone can make mistakes and if advice is given on the main forum people can see it to correct it ,if given privately then no one can see it to correct it. Please also be aware of giving your personal details to strangers

 

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

YOU CAN NOW COMPLAIN TO THE OFT ABOUT THEIR CONDUCT UNDER THE CONSUMER PROTECTION FROM UNFAIR TRADING REGULATIONS 2008.

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Hi sbennett i am in process of claiming at the moment, just sent my LBA after it took them 14 days to say they were investigating my prelim charges letter. Havent recieved anything back yet though but i have noticed that i did not add the overdraft interest to my charges(not the 8% interest) as i was not 100% sure about all this, i have a parachute account all lined up but do u think it might be worth redoing my LBA or PRELIM and adjust the amounts or just leave it as it is? Im claiming £835 in charges followed by £50.02 in the interest(8% that is). With HSBC. Account been open for nearly 3 years.

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Hi Driftking

 

You should claim the 8% at the court stage. You add 8% to each charge on the spreadsheet. Unless you are claiming Contractual interest, you then do that from the start. There are some links below to help you get around.

 

Uk

Some useful links.

FAQ's

Making Posts

Letter Template Library

Bank Contact Details

AQ Guide to Completion

Court Fees

Data Protection non Compliance

Witness Statements for Court Bundle

Banking Code Website

Limitations Act

Fast Track Costs

A-Z Index

Mis-Claim Tutorial

Step By Step Instructions

 

Remember: The Ark was built by amateurs-The Titanic by professionals.

 

Please click my scales if you find my advice helpful !

 

If your claim is successful, please donate 5% so that it can continue to help others.

 

Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, please seek qualified professional legal Help.

 

WARNING TO ALL

Please be aware of acting on advice given by PM .Anyone can make mistakes and if advice is given on the main forum people can see it to correct it ,if given privately then no one can see it to correct it. Please also be aware of giving your personal details to strangers

 

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

YOU CAN NOW COMPLAIN TO THE OFT ABOUT THEIR CONDUCT UNDER THE CONSUMER PROTECTION FROM UNFAIR TRADING REGULATIONS 2008.

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what he said

 

i have opened an alliance and leceister account due to there being no banking charge for having the account and being high interest due to my new found 0 debt when i move. It was very easy to open and i was accepted immediatly.

 

I have been lucky enough to be able to pay all my debts each month without missing any payments so i have a very good credit score. when i did need a little help hsbc didnt want to know all they said is i could have a loan to pay my od off - wth more credit, i declined and borrowed the money needed off family - i am still struggling by but i have light at the end of the tunnel in the form of my equity in my home. i feel sorry for all those who are not as fortunate as me and dont have a lifeline and get stuck in the rut with no way out and the banks wont help except by giving more credit to pay credit and carry on charging ridiculus fee's.

 

march 07 just payed £100 (renamed from total bank charges to) notified fees/charges - any one know why they have reworded this is it so the can claim its a mix of fee's and charges so it helps them when explaining in court?

 

anyway that is sort of my story just thought id share it .:D

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notified charges - just another charge reworded for absolutely no reason - add them in!

If i've been helpful in any way....then tip my scales over there!

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update for you guys - all my 3 accounts statements turned up today.

 

the grand total for my claim is

 

£2017.5 (without 8% interest)

£2390.41 (with 8% interest)

 

i used the simplified spreadsheet to calculate interest for all 3 accounts seperatly then added together - was this correct.

 

also i created copies of each spreadsheet 1 with interest for court and 1 without (but with a note on it saying 8% interest will be added for small claims court).

 

now i just need to print them and send them to hsbc.

 

any comments welcomed i will post a copy of the prelim letter (minus any bank acc numbers - not that i dont trust you guys) for an admin or such to proof read if they could.

 

this site is ace

 

ps ive noticed on ebay people selling the info you give freely so thx again.

 

:D

 

steve

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Hi darkrage,

just wanted to say good luck to you again, it is a lot of work and am leaving mine for the moment but am watching all what is going on especially your case as you are just ahead of me.

So much going on here it is hard to keep track of all but you and firemagi are going at about the same pace and they have written some very good letters and said they don't mind people copying them so you may want to take a quick look.

babyashxoxox

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hi need some help please - when using the simplified spreadsheet template it calculates days since offence and interest @ 8%.

 

my question is this how do i calculate overdraft interest to include with my prelim letter? do i have to use the complicated spreadsheet template?

 

also on the prelim letter which address do i put for the bank - is it my local branch or the head office in london?

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Good morning darkrage,

 

hope you had a good weekend even though it isn't ober yet.

 

I think you send the spreadsheets with with LBA but I could be wrong, prob knowing me I am so better not confuse you and wait for someone else to help! hahahaha

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adding on the o/d interest is not for the fainthearted so i'll give you a link to peruse so you get the gist. as for the prelim, you can send it to either your branch, leeds (where it eventually ends up) or head office, which is the address you will use if it goes to court.

 

Overdraft interest

 

This is the single most confusing part of most peoples claim, and one of the most frequently asked questions

 

overdraft interest is applied to your whole overdraft, however if some of your overdraft is made up from (unlawfull) charges,

then a proportion of the interest has been wrongly applied and is therefore reclaimable

 

Example

 

you have a £400 overdraft, you purchase something that day for £200 so now you are -£200 on your current account balance, but on the same day £200 of charges are placed on your account, which means that your current account balance is now -£400 and the bank will charge interest on the whole £400, but as we are contesting that these charges are unlawfull, then the interest should not be placed on the whole amount, only on the amount that you have actually spent,

therefore in this example you can claim back 50% of the interest, however these calculations have to be done daily to truly reflect the amount which can be reclaimed,

 

Dont worry, Vampiress has made a spreadsheet that will calculate this for you, you can find it here, but please read the instructions that come with it;

 

if you understand that reasoning - then carry on.

 

 

Service Quality Team

Arlington Business Centre

Millshaw Park Lane

Leeds LS11 0PP

 

HSBC Plc

8 Canada Square

London

E14 5HQ

If i've been helpful in any way....then tip my scales over there!

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hi -yes you do send the spread sheet printed out with the prelim letter but my account overdrafts were changed so often i dont think im going to be able to work out the interest excess charged over and above the normal interest.

 

so i think i will just send out my charges.

 

thx again.:grin:

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so considering i cant work out my od interest due to not knowing my od limits over the last six years i will just claim for the £2500 charges.

 

also considering i am dealing with my local branch through the subject acess request would you send the prelim to them or send it to leeds?

 

i feel i should send to branch this will give them less time to respond due to postage requirements from branch to leeds (is this naughty of me).

 

i would alos in the prelim letter like to draw their attention to a specific case in which these charges have been levied and payed back in full so they know im serious about going to court and get a full refund before court action . does anyone have a court case reference i can stick in for good measure.

 

"My request

I am writing to ask you to refund to me the charges which you have levied from my accounts over the last six years.

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary. I would also like to take this oppertunity to draw your attention the case of ******** vs ******** in which full repyment of charges with interest were given due to the above reasons."

 

would it be a good idea to include that last passage?

any comments or pointers would be gratefully recieved:grin:

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ok here is my prelim letter items in red i have edited

 

My request

I am writing to ask you to refund to me the charges which you have levied from my accounts over the last six years.

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

 

Your responsibilities

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them.

Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

 

What I require

I calculate that you have taken £2,017.50.

I enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter.

 

My targets to resolve this matter

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive full payment.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

 

After that, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline. Furthermore at this stage I will include the 8% interest allowed to me in a small claims court of law.

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