Ticket fell to the floor!!! Can anyone help me?

[Miss V]

I have been issued a parking ticket by 'Merton Parking Services' in October 2006 for parking in a pay and display without clearly displaying a valid pay & display voucher. I've been very unlucky because I actually followed the insructions given on the parking voucher - ie. used the sticker on the back to fix the voucher to the windscreen ( I wish I had just left it on my dashboard like I normally do ) and in the time between leaving my car ( I double-checked it was visible from the outside because I know how strict traffic wardens in London can be) and the time I returned, the ticket had fallen to the floor. I wrote a letter to the council stating what had happened and enclosed a photocopy of my voucher and ticket.

 

They wrote back with the following comments: "Motorists have a responsibility to both obtain pay & display ticket and display it correctly in the vehicle so that the Parking Attendant can see the details. The subsequent production of pay & display ticket after a penalty charge notice has been served cannot be accepted that one was correctly displayed in the vehicle at the time that the notice was issued"

 

I don't know what I can do. I haven't paid up because I think it's unfair and now I have received a 'Notice to Owner' for £80.00. I want to make a representation to the council but I desperately need advice. Has anyone else had a similar case and found success?

 

You know, it was a very cold night when the ticket was issued and I stuck the ticket to the windscreen when I returned to my car to drive home. In less than a minute it fell again - surely, it's the responsibility of parking services to provide good quality tickets to avoid motorists receiving unfair tickets? If I could afford £40/£80 I would pay up and save myself the bother, but unfortunately I don't have money to throw away!

 

Please help me.... !!!

[dx100uk]

i would be inclined to write again, include another copy or the original ticket , explain it was a very cold night [lack of adhersion etc].

include a comment upon appealing to their common sense, goodwill & understanding over this matter.

 

i am not sure about any legal issues other than it is not a legal a requirement to display, it in their words 'responsibility' i'e you did just that , you took resonable care to ensure it was on display. all you can do.

and i think a judge would accept this too.

 

however, you could of just as easily picked up a discarded ticket and be pulling a fast one.

 

i wonder if they have cctv footage of you using the meter?

might be an idea to ask this.

 

dx100uk;)

[Miss V]

Thanks for your response dx100uk. I will certainly send in another letter. My father told me I shouldn't have mentioned that it fell to the floor but I already did in my original letter so I can't retract that now. Plus it is the truth!

 

Sometimes I really hate being in London - a similar thing happened to me in the North of England and it was simply enough to call the office, then send in a copy of the ticket. In London there is no trust. Why should I have to prove that I bought and correctly displayed a ticket? Shouldn't it be the job of the parking wardens to prove I didn't have one? Grrrr...

 

Maybe I will draft a letter and post it here so I can get some comments before posting it?

 

Thanks, V.

[rogerebaker]

Have a look at this case from the NPAS website

 

http://www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/about/cases/MC00227%20Hepworth%20Allowed%20flimsy%20P%20&%20D%20ticket%20-%20identity%20removed.doc

[Miss V]

Representation to the Council of the London Borough of Merton

 

 

 

To Whom It May Concern:

 

Re: PCN No. XXXX

 

I am writing with regards to the above parking ticket, which was placed on my vehicle on the 27th of October 2006 at 18.35pm.

 

I wish to make a representation to the council to formally appeal against this ticket. Your letter of 9th November 2006 states “Motorists have a responsibility to both obtain pay & display ticket and display it correctly in their vehicle so that the Parking Attendant can see the details.”

 

I refute the allegation of not clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher in the Broadway car park. As set out in my previous letter to you (30th October 2006) I did purchase and subsequently display a voucher in the vehicle as required by the Order - please see copy of voucher enclosed. This voucher covers the parking period when the Penalty Charge Notice was issued. When leaving my vehicle, I took the responsibility of checking my voucher was displayed on my windscreen so that the Parking Attendant could see the details.

 

The voucher produced by the ticket machine in the Broadway car park is of a flimsy nature, without adequate self-adhesive. The evening of the 27th of October was cold, and on returning to my vehicle at around 19.30 hours, I noticed my voucher had fallen to the floor of my car where it could no longer be clearly seen. I re-fixed the voucher to my windscreen using the sticker on the back, only to discover it fell down again within only a few minutes.

 

I would be grateful if you would consider exercising your goodwill and understanding over this matter and cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

 

Could some of you please read this and let me know if you think it is a suitable response to a Notice to Owner? I really don't want to have to fork out £80 for something that wasn't even my fault!! Many thanks. I am so glad I found this site.

[Miss V]

Also... I was with a friend that evening (also parked in the same car park). She witnessed me purchasing the ticket (she even had to lend me £1 towards the voucher). Do you think I should mention this in my letter?

Many thanks!!!

[dx100uk]

i would add the words 'hence condensation probably played a part here' [withyou temp line] i'e you are giving them a get out for having crap adhesive! with which they might agree.

 

i would also p'haps make reference to the possibility of CCTV footage existing that shows you purchasing the ticket?

 

dx100uk:smile:

[bribri]

I suggest you also go to Welcome to the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service which is the London Borough's appeals service. There is a section on Key cases which seems on my quick reading to contradict the Manchester case referred to above and states that there is an absolute onus on the person parking to ensure the ticket is displayed.

[Miss V]

Thanks for all your replies. I took a look at the Key Cases you suggested bribri. I cannot believe how unfair the decisions in that case were! The cases I read only confirm my view that parking/speeding fines are being abused by councils who only wish to increase revenue.

 

This isn't about me saying the PCNs shouldn't have been issued, just that I would like for the Council to accept my claim that I did pay (what I regard as being a very expensive fee) for parking for 3 hours. I can't believe they can fine me for an offence which I didn't commit! I can't believe I didn't receive an apology from them as soon as sending in my voucher....

 

The evidence I have is my voucher, my word and the witness of my friend who actually lent me some change for the machine. Do you think it is unwise for me to say that I have a friend who was witness to me buying a ticket on that day in case they think I am simply sending in a copy of her ticket? In a world where nobody trusts you, it becomes difficult to know which part of the story to tell...

[ukdickie31]

Hi Miss V

 

 

I went to Stratford Upon Avon with some friends. We went in 2 cars, purchasing 2 parking tickets at the same time. He had a fine on his car as he left the ticket upside down by mistake.

 

He wrote a letter enclosing both tickets (mine and his - they both had the purchase time on them and these verified the letter explanation) and he got his parking fine cancelled.

 

Try to get your friends ticket if you can.. maybe she has it somewhere still. May be a long shot.. but it just might work !

[bribri]

I don't know what anyone else thinks but some machines now make you put in the reg. number of your car to stop tickets being transferred. Was this true for you Miss V. To my mind, this should back up your case as presumably it couldn't be argued that you had just picked up a ticket from the floor.

 

Also I think that Adjudication cases aren't binding, just persuasive. Facts are different, so you could still argue the Manchester case as it is similar to yours.

[Hoseman]

Hi there, the same thing happened to my other half in a London council but not once but twice in the same day. These tickets didnt have adhesive so you simply left them on your dashboard and I think one of the tickets was upside one while the other one was dislodged by the door beig slammed shut.

 

I wrote a letter explaining the situation enclosing a copy of the tickets to show I had complied. They dismissed it and said I still had to pay. In the meantime they were asking me to pay the penalty otherwise ti would go up. The whole process took a while and 2 letters later the charge was £100 (each) going to up to £150 if I didnt pay. Their tactics were out of order as they were basically trying to scare us into paying even though we had valid tickets. Luckily I held my nerve and we were left off but the prospect of paying £300 in total was quite daunting. I was adamant that I was in the right.

 

That was my situation but I cant guarantee the same thing will happen to you.

[Miss V]

I never can understand why the penalty fare should be increased as a result of a rejected appeal! A fine is there to punish people for breaking rules. In a court of law a person wouldn't get a heftier sentence if he pleads guilty on his fifth hearing rather than at his first! Why increase the penalty? The cynic in me says it is because councils want to discourage people from making appeals, regardless of the legitimacy of their claims. Some of my friends have paid fines in London straight away because they aren't sure their grounds for appeal are strong enough - similar cases to mine - they don't want to risk getting the penalty doubled, or even quadrupled. I am just hoping my appeal will be accepted. I wish I could tell the future though - whilst I'd like to say I would still appeal out of principle I'm not so eager that I want to spend a further £150 on top of my £3 parking fee! Wish me luck... I'm feel I need it!

[naughtyemit]

I never can understand why the penalty fare should be increased as a result of a rejected appeal! A fine is there to punish people for breaking rules. In a court of law a person wouldn't get a heftier sentence if he pleads guilty on his fifth hearing rather than at his first! Why increase the penalty? The cynic in me says it is because councils want to discourage people from making appeals, regardless of the legitimacy of their claims. Some of my friends have paid fines in London straight away because they aren't sure their grounds for appeal are strong enough - similar cases to mine - they don't want to risk getting the penalty doubled, or even quadrupled. I am just hoping my appeal will be accepted. I wish I could tell the future though - whilst I'd like to say I would still appeal out of principle I'm not so eager that I want to spend a further £150 on top of my £3 parking fee! Wish me luck... I'm feel I need it!

 

Actually, in a Court of Law, a person gets a lighter sentence the earlier in a case they plead guilty, tends to keep some cases out of Court and therefore less of a burden on the public purse but that's by the by.

 

The important thing is your ticket, the glue wasn't good enough and the ticket fell off the window.

Have you considered counter suing the Council for breach of contract, you purchased a voucher to enable you to park for an agreed length of time, the voucher you bought for this service was not fit for purpose and as such, you have been issued with a penalty notice for a pecuniary penalty. It may be worth arguing that, as the voucher was not fit for purpose, you have a valid claim to not only have your fine quashed but also (possibly) to get your pound back. No guarantee that it will work of course, but got to be worth a punt, for the cost of a letter, it may just make their lawyers sit up and take notice.

[babyboo23]

Hi

Same sorta thing has happened to me...except the thing that fell to the floor was my residents parking permit. I was disgusted to find a fine for £30 on my windscreen this morning for parking outside my own home! I have got a parking permit but it had fallen off due to my car being damp inside (problem with leaky seals on soft top). What i am annoyed about is that I own a permit and the traffic warden should have a way of cross referencing my car registration to the council permit records.

As I have a permit then I was legally parked so how can they fine me???

 

I wont be paying it thats for sure. I will be phoning monday mornning to appeal.

[Hoseman]

The cynic in me says it is because councils want to discourage people from making appeals, regardless of the legitimacy of their claims.

 

Thats exactly the reason.

 

I think youll be OK as you have a valid ticket.

[babyboo23]

spoke to someone today at my local council but they said they cant deal with my appeal...i have to put it writing.

He did say that I should be fine as long as it is on record that I have a permit...which I have.

[debbie22]

I don't know whether You have sorted this problem yet. Can I ask what proof the council has that you were not displaying a ticket. Is it their parking attendants word against yours? Do they have photographic evidence?

 

A very similar thing happened to me a few years ago. I had Fiat Panda at the time which didn't actually have a dash board ledge to speak of so I slid my payment ticket into the top of my tax disc holder. It was perfectly visible but when I returned to my car the parking attendant was writing me a ticket. I showed him where I had displayed my ticket and he told me he could not cancel the ticket at that point and told write to the parking office.

 

I did this , and 18 months of wrangling with them followed. I had all the usual excuses from them i.e I could have used some one elses ticket etc. etc. I was determined not to pay up. Eventually they wrote me saying that the parking attendants report stated that ' although he noticed a ticket in the car, it had obviously fallen out of the tax disc holder and was laying face down on the dash and therefore it wasn't displayed properly. I replied to them with a photograph o my car which clearly shows that my Fiat Panda didnt have a dash.

 

Having been caught out they eventually decided to cancel the parking fine. The moral of the story is that these parking fine departments will go to any lengths to reach their quota of fines - even blatantly lying. So if they have no photographic evidence of your car NOT having a ticket displayed then call their bluff. Ask them to provide you with the evidence and if they can't then don't pay!!

[Guest xipetotec46]

Please help me....

 

If you want, you can contact the council immediately after you receive the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). You should aim to do this within 14 days of receiving the PCN if you want to preserve the right to pay at the discount rate. You will normally be asked to put your point in writing.

State your case clearly and simply. If you have evidence to support your claims such as receipts or witness statements, send these in. (it is recommended that you always send copies only and hold on to the originals). The council will write back, either accepting or rejecting your challenge. If you have written within 14 days of receiving the PCN and the council reject your challenge, you should be offered the chance to pay at the discounted rate.

 

If the council rejects your informal challenge and you don’t pay the charge, the council will send a Notice to Owner to the person or company they believe to be the owner of the vehicle. By now, the full penalty charge will be payable.

This notice goes to the person believed to be the owner of the car, because under the Road Traffic Act 1991 it is the owner of the vehicle who is liable for any Penalty Charge Notices issued to it, irrespective of who the driver was. This is known as owner liability.

 

If you receive a Notice to Owner, you can use the form to make formal representations to the council. The Notice to Owner form itself details the legal grounds on which a formal representation may be made. You must make your representations within 28 days of receiving the form. Again, state your case clearly and simply. If you have evidence to support your claims, such as receipts or witness statements, send them in. (We recommend that you always send copies only and hold on to the originals).

If you don’t think you meet one of the legal grounds for making a representation, you may still state your case, since the council may exercise its discretion and cancel the PCN.

If the council waives the Penalty Charge Notice, you will receive a letter informing you of this. If they decide that the PCN should not be waived, you will be sent a letter explaining why. This is called a Notice of Rejection of Representations. With this letter, you should receive a form called a Notice of Appeal, allowing you to appeal to the independent Parking Adjudicator. there is case law referred to as the "FLUTTERING TICKET" in which the PCN was eventually cancelled, it was based on probabilities insofar as the adjudicator believed the appellant had bought the ticket, the ticket had bad adhesion properties on it, so hang in there and go the whole way, if you lose which you won't it's another 30 quid. can you get a pic of both sides of the PCN on here because it too may be invalid but we need to see it use ImageShack® - Hosting to host your pic then post the URL of the pics like this. ImageShack - Hosting :: pcnbackresizedok4.jpg to get this image choose the thumnail pic you hosted right click and choose VIEW IMAGE then go to the address bar at the top copy and paste it in your thread. there is no need to resize your pics just host them as they come from the camera.

[babyboo23]

Hi

Thanks for your advice. As soon as I had receied the penalty notice I phoned the number on it but they said I had to putmy apppeal in writing which I have done. I sent it recorded delivery with photocopies of the ticket and of my council issued residents parking ticket.

As I havent yet heard anything I phoned them yesterday to check they had received my appeal, they said they had and I should wait for a letter from them (they didnt give any idication of the result of my appeal).

 

Im not sure the last part of your advice really applies to me about the 'fluttering ticket' because it wasn't a prepaid parking sticker it was a residents parking permit which is valid for one year.

 

Fingers crossed I will get a reply soon and it will be a good one.

 

I will kep you posted.

[Artful Dodger]

Hold on a minute !

You bought something right ?

It was a parking ticket that allowed you to park your car for a set time in a car park.

In other words these people are selling you a space for a short while where you can put a vehicle. They supply a machine full of tickets and you have bought one. The ticket is supposed to stick to a windscreen.

The ticket itself is supposed to be fit for the purpose for which it is sold.

If you have bought a ticket that does not stick to a window properly because it is damp or too hot on a sunny day and as a result it falls to the floor then that IS NOT YOUR FAULT. It is the responsibility of the ticket provider to provide a ticket on which there is an adequate adhesive that will maintain its integrity whatever the weather.

Pay these cheeky buggers every time and after you have paid them (by credit card if possible) go back and tell them you want your money returned and charge them for the letter a fee of £10. Charge a further £10 for each subsequesnt letter and make charges for all phone calls etc and other costs. Keep records.

Do not let these companies intimidate you. They have the right to charge you if you have evaded payment but if you have paid and what you say is genuine then you have every right to pursue them for a full refund plus all your costs. Take them to the county court if they wont pay up through the small claims system. You will get all your money plus costs if you win. You have to prove balance of probability and that is all.

You have rights as well and if these heavy handed companies want to carry on the way they do then people must do it back to them.

 

Treat them with the same contempt.

 

You have paid for something and it is supposed to do what it should. If it has adhesive on it that is not adequate then in my view you have a legal case.

Now get out there and start getting these jokers in front of the courts.

You have been honest enough to pay so you have every right to take them to court.

Only do this if you are being honest and genuine because if not you will surely be found out and the you will be in deep water.

If you are being truthful you have NOTHING TO FEAR. FIGHT IT.

[1stlifeline]

I got done on the same car park. I had travelled down from Manchester and was there on a Sunday afternoon. It was red hot and I got back to the car to find my ticket curled up on the floor and a parking ticket on. I wrote and said they would see me purchasing the ticket on the cctv cameras but they would not budge.

[mattchantal]

This has just happened to me where my ticket blew to the floor on an extremely windy day. This thread is quite old so the links to cases no longer work. Has anyone had experience of this and is it worth fighting or not risk the fine doubling and just pay up? Hastings council have rejected my appeal ont he grounds that no ticket was displayed even though they have my valid ticket.

They have taken pictures of my dashboard but they are not conclusive as their ticket is in place under my wipers obscuring part of my dashboard. Can I argue my ticket was displayed in that exact spot?

Thanks

[green_and_mean]

Adjudicators usually in not displaying contraventions side with the council unless you have conclusive proof it was displayed. You could lie but how do you know the Council has not further photos prior to placing the PCN on screen?

[yugi65]

I had appealled for the second time because my ticket fell off on to the floor. First case was that the ticket was blown down to the floor when my son went back to get his PSP CONSOLE visibly left on the front passenger seat. When we came back from shopping we got the PCN. Appeal was successful and cancelled. However on this second case I purchased a sticky ticket. Thinking of the bad experience I had previously, I stuck the sticky ticket on to the windscreen but it fell off on to the floor. Council is rejecting my appeal for the reason that I had previous PCN issued to the same car with the same remarks. They are suggesting to pay £100 within 28 days or to appeal to Parking and Traffic Appeals Service. What should I do?