Claiming on a Business account? Lets join forces?

[andrew1]

I subscribed to this thread because there are many common denominators between the different types of business accounts Ltd Co., Sole Trader/ self employed. I am very interested in the Limited company aspect and Photoman has lured a lot of people with Limited Company accounts onto this thread ( deserves a few green rep pips for that )

 

A lot of the stories involve high numbers of bank charges which either force liquidation or demand personal guarantees to be called in by the banks which Directors were forced to give often to cover and were due to the high charges. When I say high I mean in some cases £10k + .

 

Now we appreciate that it is usually more than just the charges which cause a business to fail and the charges only kick in once the problems of cash flow begin to bite. But, how responsible is the bank for the failure of the business and the consequential losses such as losses of property/home and the additional loans or the bankruptcy?

 

Whilst we can reclaim for unlawful charges, who gets the money if the company went into liquidation and there were creditors?

 

Who gets the money if there were creditors but the bank were supplied a 'personal' guarantee

 

Who gets the money if there was no overdraft but no company exists anymore?

 

How much can be claimed for consequential losses?

 

These are all questions which need debating, because reading the posts above it is not difficult to see what torture people have been put through, what property has been lost and how much these charges have rampantly been applied and the damage to the businesses and personal lives they have done to people.

 

I would like to thrash out these questions so we can leave people in no doubt as to what can be done to reclaim back their lives and some of what has been taken from them. Between Photomans thread and my own Limited Company one we should be able to gather enough between us to answer these questions.

[beetlejuice]

Andrew1,

 

From my own experience, my Ltd co. is in th eprocess of being struck off at Co's House,(once struck off technically all assets of the company belong to the crown) due to Cease of trading due to insolvency - self impossed - as thinks were not improving, I had only debts to HM and VAT hey ho!. But the banbk overdraft was passed to me so I'm left to pay it off, having just had a full offer of refund of my miniscule charges (in relation to monies owed) I am going to take the money personally and use it to reduce the debt which is at a DCA (see previous posts) , we'll see if the bank picks up the subelty of me vs my business I don;t think they're bothered (I have asked for a personal cheque). I'll let you all know how I go

 

Would welcome any further thoughts on how to take on the DCA and pay them a more reasonable sum against what they paid the bank for the debt, I am going to issue a SAR on the agreement between them and the Bank shortly.

 

Love and respect to all

 

BJ

 

:-)

[andrew1]

Andrew1,

 

From my own experience, my Ltd co. is in th eprocess of being struck off at Co's House,(once struck off technically all assets of the company belong to the crown) due to Cease of trading due to insolvency - self impossed - as thinks were not improving, I had only debts to HM and VAT hey ho!. But the banbk overdraft was passed to me so I'm left to pay it off, having just had a full offer of refund of my miniscule charges (in relation to monies owed) I am going to take the money personally and use it to reduce the debt which is at a DCA (see previous posts) , we'll see if the bank picks up the subelty of me vs my business I don;t think they're bothered (I have asked for a personal cheque). I'll let you all know how I go

 

Would welcome any further thoughts on how to take on the DCA and pay them a more reasonable sum against what they paid the bank for the debt, I am going to issue a SAR on the agreement between them and the Bank shortly.

 

Love and respect to all

 

BJ

 

:-)

 

 

Beetlejuice, where did you get that ( highlighted) info from?

 

also, you say there were creditors, the Inland Revenue and Customs & Excise so there were debts to be paid off via liquidation, that is clear.

 

So who passed the ( I presume the guarantee to the bank?) debt to the DCA?

 

If it was the bank, there was obviously an overdraft to pay off?

 

Has the debt been SOLD to the DCA ( can you say which DCA it is? - PM me the answer to that if you want)

[andrew1]

Right, I've just had a nice little chat with the Official Receivers Office regarding some of the points I raised earlier.

 

Sole Traders and Self Employed who have been bankrupt: If you claim for bank charges and are repaid, ALL the monies have to go into the pot to pay off creditors.

 

Sole Traders and Self employed who have closed the business but without creditors : You can claim it back for yourself.

 

Limited Companies which have gone into Liquidation without personal guarantees to the bank: All charges claimed should be paid back to the liquidator/ official receiver as they were derived from a time when the business was trading and belong to the creditors. If the company has been dissolved and you claimed them then as the company no longer exists the money belongs to no-one and is what they call ' bona vacantia' which means you have to send it to Gorgon Brown for the benefit of the nation!

 

Limited Companies which have gone into liquidation ( but not dissolved) WITH a personal Guarantee to the bank which the banks have called in to be repaid: - interesting one this, once you have established how much the banks have charged in penalties and you stake your claim from the bank you have to try to put the company back into the position it was had the charges not been made. You can establish whether you would have had an overdraft or not in the first place and effectively reverse the whole process. What they said was that the monies claimed, as they happened to be charged during the life of the business should be paid back into the business, and therefore if the monies were paid back then the overdraft wouldn't be what it was when the company failed, so the bank have to effectively refund the company ( so the excess monies go to the Liquidator AND reimburse you and your guarantee as they wouldn't have called it in had it not been needed.

( I'd also add my personal bit here where I believe the banks would have a big responsibility to cover consequential losses should it be proved the charges were so high it forced the company to close and cause personal loss, but that is a personal opinion and legal advice should be sought on that)

 

Limited Companies that have been dissolved - same 'Bona Vacantia' and Gordon Brown scenario.

 

I didn't tape the call unfortunately but they were very helpful.

[photoman]

Andrew

BRILLIANT WORK !!

.... really does raise some interesting points, and maybe very good grounds for claiming consequential losses ? It also means that any adverse effects upon your credit rating as a result of defaults, Guarantees being called upon and having been declared bankrupt should ALL also be removed.

[hels bells]

hi anyione advise from the above??

[andrew1]

hi all

 

my story is pretty similar to others, my hubby an i have a business account in both our names and written 'trading as' underneath our names, i sent all the SAR and LBa with no luck even though i had a written record of Barlays telling me i could have my notification of charges which I have misplaced from 2000-03,suddenly they changesd their minds and said they do not hold these specific documents for more than 3 years, [contrary to what i had been told by them befroe they new what i wanted them for ] however i am due in court on the 13 th April and they { bank] have written saying they will defend my claim, THIS IS JUST FOR DATA.

 

ps my notification of charges are sent to my home address and have my home address on the statements but 2000 03 have my business addres on them somehow it changed in 03 to home address. As business peepe you will know that N of C offer a breakdown of what the quartlery charges are for, as some a reasnable and as we know some are not . without the NoC my calculation would not be accruate in court.

 

any ideas.

 

hels

 

Hels, I presume in the last post you mean questions on this post above.

 

The Subject Access request you ought to get your data I believe, but you are not covered by the Consumer Credit act. If you are seeking statements, as a business you ( and the bank) should keep them for 6 years in any case, but as a business the banks can charge you for copies of statements.

 

As for your quarterly chagres, these are usually for ' services' and services carry no penalties which can be reclaimed, unless your bank list unpaid d/d's or returned cheques in your quarterly charges, that is not normal though with most banks. Q charges are generally for processing of money/cheques/ management fees and the likes. Perhaps you can be more specific.

 

Surely, if you are due in court on 13th April you had all this prepared before you put your claim in? I'm no expert on the legal side of putting a claim in but perhaps you can be a little more specific here for us to help.

[elsinore]

 

Sole Traders and Self Employed who have been bankrupt: If you claim for bank charges and are repaid, ALL the monies have to go into the pot to pay off creditors.

 

 

But for how long Andrew?

 

Could it be that, after official discharge from bankruptcy, you could keep any refunds of charges for yourself?

 

I believe that the OR can retain an interest in a property (house) for some years after discharge, but not sure about money.

 

Els

[TUTTSI]

Hi Andrew, sounds like you have been busy, it does not sound like anyone in the senarios above would actually get back any of the money!!

DS

[andrew1]

But for how long Andrew?

 

Could it be that, after official discharge from bankruptcy, you could keep any refunds of charges for yourself?

 

I believe that the OR can retain an interest in a property (house) for some years after discharge, but not sure about money.

 

Els

 

Good point - not sure, I could only ask so much and was on for 35 minutes as it was! I'd need to get that clarified, if we get enough questions I can phone again.

[andrew1]

Hi Andrew, sounds like you have been busy, it does not sound like anyone in the senarios above would actually get back any of the money!!

DS

 

Not quite 'no-one' - if you are a limited company and there were creditors but you had a personal guarantee on the overdraft that you were paying off because of the charges you'd get all that back as there wouldn't have been an overdraft to pay off if it wasn't for the charges. So the guarantee wouldn't have been necessary. The bank would have to reinstate the status quo as if the charges hadn't been applied.

[beetlejuice]

Beetlejuice, where did you get that ( highlighted) info from?

 

also, you say there were creditors, the Inland Revenue and Customs & Excise so there were debts to be paid off via liquidation, that is clear.

 

So who passed the ( I presume the guarantee to the bank?) debt to the DCA?

 

If it was the bank, there was obviously an overdraft to pay off?

 

Has the debt been SOLD to the DCA ( can you say which DCA it is? - PM me the answer to that if you want)

 

See PM

 

Just need to take on DCA when other bank charges from different accounts come in!!

 

Thanks for your info

 

BJ

 

:-)

 

I think/hoping HM & Customs and Excise will not bother to chase as the amounts were relatively insignificant but we'll see!! (it has been known to happen)

 

Yes there was an overdraft. Charges only amounted to £240.00 so can't' blame them for my undoing now overdraft transfered to DCA.

 

Debt has been handed over to.... as stated in PM

[scott150663]

who's going to tell the official reciever that you have reclaimed bank charges ??

 

The bank?

cobbetts ( how would they know?? )

 

or inform the OR yourself..!!!!!!

 

any comments

[andrew1]

who's going to tell the official reciever that you have reclaimed bank charges ??

 

The bank?

cobbetts ( how would they know?? )

 

or inform the OR yourself..!!!!!!

 

any comments

 

There's a lot to be said for the unsaid :D

[scott150663]

There's a lot to be said for the unsaid :D

 

 

lol......lol...........

 

 

on a need to know bases i would assume

 

 

lol

scott

[hels bells]

hi andrew1

 

ok more specific, i understand that some of the charges in a business account ar lawful, like paying money in, getting change out, wrtting cheques, but as you know re-referred cheques at £35 a time or re referred fee at 25 per month at £35 are time are not . but a breakdown of those charges are offered on the notification of charges sent quarterly and the monthly statements give you the total of those charges eg £950. charges and £1200 interest, the quarterly statements [N o C] is the key to the lawful or unlawful charges, i just happen to have misplaced 2000-03 which probably add up to £10k or more in charges but i,m in court as they [barcalys] say the ydo not hold N o C for longer than 3 years, i just don,t beleive this to be true andwhen i go to court for my dosh back i need to be accurate with my calculations or risk failing.

 

does this help?

:o

[andrew1]

Sadly, not really. It's a bit late in the day to be looking for these. These N o C's are what - Notice of Charges? If you have prepared court papers would this not have been on your claim - sorry I can't quite get my head around you going to court already when you have such a vast whole in your information. also, there must be people on the Barclays threads who have some idea of their records. I am sure banks have to keep at least 7 years for banking /Inland Revenue purposes. All companies have to keep 6yrs of records so a bank would too. This 3 yrs nonsense is absurd. I'd phone customer services on Saturday Morning and just tell them you'd like these documents. It's not as if you are asking for 3 yrs of monthly/weekly statements if they are quarterly then it's 12 documents - £5 a time and I am sure they must keep them by law for 6 yrs at least. Maybe someone on the Barclays thread will confirm that but I would put money on it.

[hels bells]

andrew1

 

thats the whole reason i am going to court, i have sent the usual requests for my data and more specifically notification of charges [ charges breakdown] yes i agree only 12 statements in all and i have tried to ring customer service and they were orderd once from Gadbrook Park, the main office data base place but dear old barclays got wind of my request having turned my down by letter the back door was Gadbrook park, unfortunalty for me the service team get wind of my request and having already been told by Gadbrook park my request was not a problem i was then contacted the day after to be told they do not store them [ 3 yr thing] obviously i noted the names and call time and conversation, i even later rang and requested them again, i was told again i could have them but again they were stopped, is it cos they know there about 10k to claim back as they asked me why i had requested them. this is my whole point with the court, i want my data and they will not give me it, were do you see the big whole

 

hels

[andrew1]

Hi hels, the big whole I was referring to was infact the very data you are seeking to get via the court, I was assuming ( shouldn't do that !) that you were taking your claim for charges into the court without having all the data first. On consumer debt I have heard of people estimating, generally on the over 6 yrs amounts if they didn't have the detail, but mum of 3 soon put pay to that suggestion on the chat line by saying not to do that. Now I see what you are going to court for it makes more sense and I hope I haven't confused you too much by where I was going. My apologies for getting it slightly wrong. It appears to me Barclays have absolutely no right to hold this information back and they should, by law keep account details for at least 6yrs.

 

Regards

[andrew1]

Something I picked up on a thread testing the authenticity of a Credit Agreement or and Application which might be of some use when we are deciding about reinstatement of a business financial position had the charges not been made : haven't read it all yet, but the comments about the Pawnbroker making good particularly interested me:

 

 

" Originally Posted by rinkydinkydoo View Post

Hi, take a look at this site, might be of interest

Financial Agreement Solutions

I saw it advertised on credit expert.com

New Consumer Credit act regulatoins come into force tomorrow, making it easier to challenge the consumer credit act. Plus a website's been set up promising to allow people to check whether their loan/credit card debt is enforceable

Interesting quote on the home page

 

Quote:

Quote: Lord Justice Sedley – “the moral for a pawnbroker such as Mr Howard is that if he wants the rewards of his trade he must operate strictly by the book, and that the failure to do so may be not merely to unravel agreements, but to reverse the indebtedness that they have purportedly caused."

Penelope Wilson V Howard Pawnbrokers at the London Court of Appeal, Royal Courts of Justice, The Strand. 5th February 2005. Appeal dismissed with costs.

[Breezy Girl]

Hi Everyone

Thanks so much for your help, this site is so supportive.

The spreadsheet is brilliant. I hope I can understand how to put the information in.

Thanks again

Breezy:D Girl!!

[TUTTSI]

Something I picked up on a thread testing the authenticity of a Credit Agreement or and Application which might be of some use when we are deciding about reinstatement of a business financial position had the charges not been made : haven't read it all yet, but the comments about the Pawnbroker making good particularly interested me:

 

 

" Originally Posted by rinkydinkydoo View Post

Hi, take a look at this site, might be of interest

Financial Agreement Solutions

I saw it advertised on credit expert.com

New Consumer Credit act regulatoins come into force tomorrow, making it easier to challenge the consumer credit act. Plus a website's been set up promising to allow people to check whether their loan/credit card debt is enforceable

Interesting quote on the home page

 

Quote:

Quote: Lord Justice Sedley – “the moral for a pawnbroker such as Mr Howard is that if he wants the rewards of his trade he must operate strictly by the book, and that the failure to do so may be not merely to unravel agreements, but to reverse the indebtedness that they have purportedly caused."

Penelope Wilson V Howard Pawnbrokers at the London Court of Appeal, Royal Courts of Justice, The Strand. 5th February 2005. Appeal dismissed with costs.

 

Lord Justice Sedley, is a very distant relative of mine.

[andrew1]

Hi Everyone

Thanks so much for your help, this site is so supportive.

The spreadsheet is brilliant. I hope I can understand how to put the information in.

Thanks again

Breezy:D Girl!!

 

Which spreadsheet did you use Breezygirl?

[Breezy Girl]

Hi

There is a link for a spreadsheet on the posting no. 175 by snoopsmum. I haven't had a chance to look at it yet thought I would look when I have time to study it.

Breezy Girl:)

[ermie]

Can anyone help. I have just realizied that in my haste to doing my charges I sent my LBA letter off first instead of my prelim letter. (I can only put this down to just having had a baby) Any ideas as to what I do now. I have had a reply from LLoyds telling me I have no right to reclaim.

 

Do I just send it again. Also the address from LLoyds is Andover Service, Recovery Centre Charlton Place, Andover Hampshire SP10 1RE as opposed to Colmore Row, which is where I sent the original to.

 

Any ideas would be gratefully received.