Claiming on a Business account? Lets join forces?

[photoman]

HOW TO START YOUR OWN THREAD:

 

You get more specific advice to your own case, and be able to keep a track of how it's going by viewing just one thread instead of skirting around lots of threads trying to find your posts and answers.

 

1/ Go here.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....group-against/

 

2/ Find your Bank, click on the bold blue name of Bank

 

3/ Go to the bit that says "Forum tools" and click on it.

 

4/ Click Subscribe to Forum. It will ask you how often you want to recieve updates ( daily I found is best)

 

5/ Then it will redirect you once you've subscribed.

 

6/ then click on "Forum tools" again, and choose "Post new thread"

 

7/ Give your thread a title eg: "yourname vs whatever bank", and then make a post.

 

8/ Then go to the bit at the top of your browser ( the bit that says http etc), and right click your mouse, choose copy, then come back here and post a new reply, and right click you mouse and choose paste to put a link to your thread in there.

 

9 Then hopefully people will visit and psot/subscribe etc.

[M Levesley]

Just had an offer from Lloyds TSB for a company account for £2005.31 was cliaming £3161.77. Started court proceedings they defended saying usual and Consumer Act not applicable etc. Filled in my allocation questionnaire and the offer can this morning out of the blue.

 

I am going to accept the offer since some of the charges applied to the account do not state what they are for so the courts if it went that far might rule against me for not accepting the reasonable offer.

 

Still its a win for a little effort I will let you know when and if the cheque arrives since I shut that account down two years ago, lets hope its not a rubber one!!

 

Many Thanks, I will keep you all posted

[andrew1]

Just had an offer from Lloyds TSB for a company account for £2005.31 was cliaming £3161.77. Started court proceedings they defended saying usual and Consumer Act not applicable etc. Filled in my allocation questionnaire and the offer can this morning out of the blue.

 

I am going to accept the offer since some of the charges applied to the account do not state what they are for so the courts if it went that far might rule against me for not accepting the reasonable offer.

 

Still its a win for a little effort I will let you know when and if the cheque arrives since I shut that account down two years ago, lets hope its not a rubber one!!

 

Many Thanks, I will keep you all posted

 

 

Hey that's brilliant, well done. I wonder if you can tell us here what the status of the company was when the account was closed? Liquidated, dissolved with no creditors or what. we have a thread going on Limited Companies and numerous people are asking about closed ore dissolved accounts.. your input would be much appreciated. If you prefer to PM the answer feel free. It will help with other claims.

[judi3]

LEVENSLEY

 

It your money , they offered me no intrest at the same stage

reply stating thank you and you accept you as part payment they will not go to court its up to them to dispute the total .

£1100 is better in your pocket and it will cost them more in legal fees to argue .

They will pay i almost went crazy after rejecting 3500 but with 10 days they agreed THE FULL AMOUNT .

 

defended saying usual and Consumer Act not applicable etc

THEN WHY ARE THEY GIVING YOU SOME MONEY?

[andrew1]

LEVENSLEY

 

It your money , they offered me no intrest at the same stage

reply stating thank you and you accept you as part payment they will not go to court its up to them to dispute the total .

£1100 is better in your pocket and it will cost them more in legal fees to argue .

They will pay i almost went crazy after rejecting 3500 but with 10 days they agreed THE FULL AMOUNT .

 

defended saying usual and Consumer Act not applicable etc

THEN WHY ARE THEY GIVING YOU SOME MONEY?

 

 

It's not quite the same for Limited Companies. Consumer Credit Act does not apply.

[ppauls150]

Excellant thread people. I agree there should be a dedicated section with regards to just business accounts set away from the personal accounts section under each heading. I have already claimed a large propotion back from the banks and credit card companies everyone of them caving in to my demands as i wouldnt back down. Now i am looking at claiming back on a business account and have done some research but wanted to clarify some things with anyone who can clear it up, or might even be of help or throw up a debate about things.

 

Firstly with regards to Overdraft setup fees from the bank manager. It is said that you cannot claim these back as this is an actual service yes? ok so the question on this is why? When an overdraft facility is setup for a business account what is the difference in setting one up as oppose to setting one up on a business account? You dont get charged a fee on a personal account. Also why is the Fee they charge for setting up an overdraft for a business account vary in the ammount that they take for setting it up? What difference does it make if they setup a £100 overdraft or a £1000 overdraft why should the fee be different?

 

P.S can anyone please tell me where has my signitures dissapeared to :o i had all my claims listed there and links..

[andrew1]

If you don't mind ppauls150 I'm going to copy and paste this question onto the Limited company thread because it is a common problem and your are right, why should there be a difference..

[scott150663]

hi everyone

i ve reiceved corbetts AQ today can someone confirm what the following means and do i need to reply to corbetts?????

 

 

case management directions cannot be proposed until the claimant serves a reply to the request for further infomation which was due on 19th March 2007. In light of this, the defendant may amend its defence or apply to strike out.

im assuming they are refering to cpr request which i refused to answer and sent them a letter from the template section explaining my reasons..

 

Just for anyone who is claiming more than £5000 My claim is for £37000 and corbetts are requesting fast track and are asking the court to allow 3 hours for the case to be heard....

 

is this common what will happen next

 

thanks for any replies

 

scott

[nicky1312]

help please sending my preliminary letter to bank not sure if its done properly,the part where it says the amount that they have cherged me in overdraft interest is this normal interest on my charges as i didnt have an overdraft on my account thanx for any help

[Largo]

Hi everybody

Finally had a response from BOS about my £11952 business claim saying

that in my letters I referred to OFT inquiry which is based on the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regs and these regs do not apply to business customers . I used the correct letter templates- what have I did wrong or are they just stalling ? What do I do now ? Issue a claim ?

[tifo]

i don't think the OFT inquiry is based on UTCCRs but on the rate of bank charges.

 

in any business case, you have to take out any mention of UTCCR as that only applies to consumers with personal accounts (hence the 'Consumer' part).

[photoman]

Hi everybody

Finally had a response from BOS about my £11952 business claim saying

that in my letters I referred to OFT inquiry which is based on the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regs and these regs do not apply to business customers . I used the correct letter templates- what have I did wrong or are they just stalling ? What do I do now ? Issue a claim ?

 

What was the response to ?

Your prelim, your LBA ?

 

The way I see this, is they are clutching at straws here.

Okay, yes the OFT report makes lots of references to the UTCCR,.... BUT it does ALSO make reference to common law, and state that the charges in order to be fair under COMMON LAW must be fair. And this, ie COMMON LAW, DOES apply to business customers also. A particularly relevant passage from the report is chapter 3.22 as quoted here:

 

1. 3.22 In order to be fair in these circumstances under the UTCCRs, and not to constitute a penalty under common law, such pre-estimate of costs would also have to be limited to the type of costs which would be legitimately claimable as damages against the individual consumer if the credit card company were to sue him individually for breach of contract. It must not include costs which could never normally be recovered either because they would not qualify as damages or because they would not be regarded as having been caused by the default in a legally relevant sense.

This is all a bit academic anyhow.

The OFT report was just that, a report, it is not legislation.

You have only so far made reference to it as an authoritative opinion on the matter, you have not cited it as case law, legislation or statute that you are intending to rely upon in court.

The fact that you may have mentioned the report in you letters before your actual court action will not jepordise your case. Perhaps they have actually done you a favour by already mentioning one of their possible defences to your claim should you use it !!

Just go ahead and file your N1.

Perhaps for the avoidance of doubt leave out any reference to the OFT report in your Particulars of Claim. As I say, it is only a report, and is not Statute or Legislation anyhow. There is after all much more than enough actual cases (look around on site for cases to cite) and also legislation (such as Unfair Contract Terms bill 1977, Sale of Goods and Services Act 1982 etc etc) to back up your claim without the OFT report.

[andrew1]

Photoman, Just as a matter of clarification, businesses that are not Limited Liability companies, ie the sole trader and the self employed operate as businesses, but are independently liable for debts in the event of failure of the business. They would go personally bankrupt rather than into liquidation and protected by the 'Limited Liability' status. So, when it comes to banking matters one would have thought that the Consumer Credit Act would actually be more relevant than the UTC & Sales of Goods Acts - is that not so?

[photoman]

Photoman, Just as a matter of clarification, businesses that are not Limited Liability companies, ie the sole trader and the self employed operate as businesses, but are independently liable for debts in the event of failure of the business. They would go personally bankrupt rather than into liquidation and protected by the 'Limited Liability' status. So, when it comes to banking matters one would have thought that the Consumer Credit Act would actually be more relevant than the UTC & Sales of Goods Acts - is that not so?

 

Andrew,

As far as I am aware from reading and researching I gather that anyone who has an account set up as a Business account, whether it be as a Sole Trader or a Limited company, and taking these actions should avoid reference to any Consumer regulations. I gather this is because all and any Business accounts are not afforded any protection under Consumer regulations per se.

I would be very happy to find out if this was otherwise, as it really sucks that we are not afforded the same basic protections. If anyone has some definitive evidence or case law to the contrary please post it.

[andrew1]

Andrew,

As far as I am aware from reading and researching I gather that anyone who has an account set up as a Business account, whether it be as a Sole Trader or a Limited company, and taking these actions should avoid reference to any Consumer regulations. I gather this is because all and any Business accounts are not afforded any protection under Consumer regulations per se.

I would be very happy to find out if this was otherwise, as it really sucks that we are not afforded the same basic protections. If anyone has some definitive evidence or case law to the contrary please post it.

 

That also of course, brings into the equation giving personal guarantees by Directors. If a Bank were to call in a guarantee on a Limited Company business account which was in fact a personal guarantee, that too should/ought be construed in a similar manner should it not?

[photoman]

Andrew

How it works with Limited companies and directors liabilities and their personal protection under Consumer rights I know little of. I was personally a sole trader.

Perhaps as Sole traders we are still considered "consumers" in the eyes of the law? ie. They are a supplier of services to us, and we are consumers of that service.

Perhaps if it went before a judge, they would decide that we are actually afforded protection as consumers? However, it appears at present that anyone claiming with a Business account of any description has run into problems if they have quoted Consumer regs, with the Banks solicitors trying to strike out such claims on this basis.

For the avoidance of doubt, unless someone can confirm that Sole Traders or Directors of companies can be considered and protected as Consumers and rely on such regs, i think it is best at present to avoid any such references?

[Glenn UK]

Its my view that if someone sets up a business and has a bank account which they use in conducting that business that they are likely to be considered as a business and not a consumer.

 

There may be degrees but it would not be unreasonable IMHO for a court to presume that as a business , all be it a small one, that the owner/director would make sure they complied with the law and that they were aware of their legal standing.

 

It would seem perverse maybe, but it seems to me that a consumer has a totally different status to a business, whether its a multi national or a sole trader.

 

Id be pleased to be proved wrong though.

 

Glenn

[judi3]

I started as as sole trader and due to difficulties when expanding because of the bank actions we went ltd company .

 

Due to the banks actions penalties miss selling and credit filling etc.

It put a strain on the ltd companies future and i am now personnally liable for its failure .

 

I do accept our illusion of creating jobs and a service for the community had difficulties .

 

But the unlawful penalties had a major part of its failure .

 

I have just started a new thread

 

I thought you might be interested in reading this web page:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=76059&referrerid=31310

 

I Have also started

 

I thought you might be interested in reading this web page:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=72644&referrerid=31310

 

We have a guarentee with the hsbc as our company failed i have negotiated with the bank to transfer the overdraft into a consoladated loan and adviced we can pay £100 per month ,they have just rang and said my intrest would be 10.95% above intrest meaning 17%.

told them we want to pay it off and it was in both our intrest to repay but it was not an acceptable rate and required everything in writing to have it looked over ,when i said what would happen if i did not accept they said it would be written off and passed to a DCA.

 

Recieved letter today because its not a loan agreement form i cannot be sent a copy of its full terms and conditions because no loan has been agreed !!!

 

i do not want to agree on anything if i can read through the t& c

sent subject access request today so i have a two week wait and im toting up the unlawful charges on the ltd .

 

 

 

 

I intend to discover for full and final closure any advice would be apreciated

[photoman]

Judi

Limited company rules are a bit of a mystery to me, but someone has started a thread to help you.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/73488-limited-company-claims.html#post648274

 

Hopefully this will be of help.

I'll take a look (as I'm I'm sure many here will too) at your threads, but hopefully someone with a bit more know how on Limited companies will pop over to have a look ?

[beetlejuice]

Judi,

 

In a sim. position have two personal guarantees for failed Ltd Bus. hoping refund of charges will clear these in part or negotiated full!. I noted somewhere a while ago some one said (on this site) DCA pay about 10-12% of the loan/debit value and then go on to try to collect the original sum (now that's a way to make money!!!).

The banks get there full tax credit by writing off the loan (gosh don't you feel sorry for them they'll so miss the money you owed them.

 

I wonder if there is a way that we could get the DCA to disclose the amount paid under the DATA protection act since the bank assigned the (your) debit to them and the debit is on us/you (surely we should know how much they sold our liabillity for. It would certainly give us a stronger bargaining chip with the DCA). I was initially offered to pay half back of one of the debits, which I would have jumped at, but could not afford it at the time). There might then be a way to prove that reclaiming the whole debit is unreasonable?? Any comments anyone??

 

Nice day eh?

 

BJ

 

[judi3]

i ranf the f-o they can not get involved in negotiating intrest rates but i want to pay hsbc back ! which will be alot more than the dca will buy it for but i have to agree to a noose around my neck surley this can not be fair

[beetlejuice]

Judi ( sorry f-o = Financial ombudsman?)

 

The way I look at it is once it goes to the DCA they can't charge interest so you are dealing with W***Kers but the debt is fixed - double edged sword really. Might be worth talking to a solicitor on the revealling the value paid for the debt, then negotiating hard? They like to make quick money as well as lots of it on teh basis of their admin charges on running the debt over a long period.

 

BJ

[andrew1]

Judi,

 

In a sim. position have two personal guarantees for failed Ltd Bus. hoping refund of charges will clear these in part or negotiated full!. I noted somewhere a while ago some one said (on this site) DCA pay about 10-12% of the loan/debit value and then go on to try to collect the original sum (now that's a way to make money!!!).

The banks get there full tax credit by writing off the loan (gosh don't you feel sorry for them they'll so miss the money you owed them.

 

I wonder if there is a way that we could get the DCA to disclose the amount paid under the DATA protection act since the bank assigned the (your) debit to them and the debit is on us/you (surely we should know how much they sold our liabillity for. It would certainly give us a stronger bargaining chip with the DCA). I was initially offered to pay half back of one of the debits, which I would have jumped at, but could not afford it at the time). There might then be a way to prove that reclaiming the whole debit is unreasonable?? Any comments anyone??

 

Nice day eh?

 

BJ

 

 

 

Hi Beetlejuice, This is interesting and I think it might have been me who said about the DCA's 10%. What you have to remember is that what the DCA pays is a commercial issue to a degree. If they are lucky enough to pay somewhere between 7%+ 12% for a debt and can get 75% back then that's good business. However, I have a larger issue on this because as you say there are writebacks for the banks AND once the DCA get the debt and make an arrangement for repayment, if you miss a repayment they start to charge you interest on the whole debt. My argument being that if they paid £100 for a £1000 debt why should they charge me interest on £1000. They never lent me £100 and they didn't draw £1000 from reserves or borrow it on the money markets they just laid out £100. Now THAT is an issue and I know people like CAbot do that - they tried it on me!

 

Trouble is you are talking about a Limited Company debt not a consumer or solet rader. The Bank have no obligations under the DPA for a business account to disclose data. The strength of knowing what they (the DCA) paid

will come in handy for negotiating full and final settlements.

[judi3]

But the debt now has become personal to the dca as the ltd account does not exsist do we not have any protection.

 

 

If I WAS A DCA NOW WOULD IT BE WORTH BUYING /CHASING A DEBT THAT IS FULL OFF UNLAWFUL CHARGES TO HAVE THEM WRITTEN OFF BY ACTIONS ON THIS SITE .

[andrew1]

So what you are saying is that the liability under the guarantee, now that the company has gone, because it is a personal guarantee by the directors would become a personal debt rather than a business debt and therefore covered by the DPA?

 

Might not this be a question - "Where then can you show a consumer credit agreement"? - I don't know the answer to this I am just testing the arguments - I am in contact myself with a liquidator friend and I just tried to find out what he might think, but he's off today. I'll ask him tomorrow and post back, but its an interesting one this.