UKPC parking invoice - tesco Faraday retail park,Coatbank Street, Coatbridge. ML5 3SQ scotland

[dinate]

I took a photo at the time, quite amusing really, not fot the disabled persons space it is though

[blobin69]

Thats great keep photographing his car unattended in the disabled bay and note the times he is there.

 

Also do ukpc personel have to be SIA licenced??

[Barnsley Boy]

Also do ukpc personel have to be SIA licenced??

 

The SIA bit only comes in for car clamping. SIA membership can only be obtained for individuals having no criminal record and who've taken a short [4 day ?] course with a multiple choice test at the end. A modest enough entrance requirement but it seems to trip most PPCs up .

[jimmylesaint]

hi

[jimmylesaint]

All the advice about ignoring the letters received is fine except why should we have to put up with the junk mail!In our OWN private home?!

What can we do to stop them sending their rubbish?

Can we actually be guaranteed a win in court if taken that far? NO we can't GUARANTEE a win. As previous similar cases have gone.

No i'm not a troll/hug a PPC person, quite the opposite.

BUT what is important to note to people coming here for advice is three sides to the story, 1)Ours 2)PPCs 3)The County court judges

Thus the consumer can be FULLY informed of possibilities.

On another site that ends in poo the standard response was ignore and laugh about the letters(no it's harrasssing,annoying and invading my family time with the wife and kids!!) and these letters go on for months sometimes years!! The response to being clamped was, similar,"don't worry you'll win with help from us, easy, law in our favour...." Nope not true either!

Well certainly hope the moderators on here can accept this post although initially negative in the defences against PPC, helps see from different angles and perspectives and REALITY of the chance of winning. Unfortunately Pepipoo mods were far to concerned applauding their buddies sarcy unconstructive comments to be able to take a grown up objective unbiased stance on the results of my post on a real court case.

As such they have censored my posts and now stop posting my posts, even though they proclaimed they would not censor my negative court case(losing one) however Fredd spoke with forked tongue. Whether it was bad for his website business and revenue, who knows.

|Their loss.

Anyone need advice on anything PPC related, i am as always happy to help.

[robin9342]

The outcome of any court case cannot be guaranteed. However, what is certain, is that no PPC has ever won a properly defended case. Thats all I need to know! If you are the first case where you have lost despite a proper defence, please let us have the details......

 

Theres nothing wrong with the ignore and laugh response. You really are overdramatising the situation. Just how much time of your life does it take to file away these letters?

Edited September 28, 2008 by robin9342
sp

[couldthisbereal2]

The outcome of any court case cannot be guaranteed. However, what is certain, is that no PPC has ever won a properly defended case. Thats all I need to know!

 

How do you know this as a fact ?

[couldthisbereal2]

All the advice about ignoring the letters received is fine except why should we have to put up with the junk mail!In our OWN private home?!

What can we do to stop them sending their rubbish?

Can we actually be guaranteed a win in court if taken that far? NO we can't GUARANTEE a win. As previous similar cases have gone.

No i'm not a troll/hug a PPC person, quite the opposite.

BUT what is important to note to people coming here for advice is three sides to the story, 1)Ours 2)PPCs 3)The County court judges

Thus the consumer can be FULLY informed of possibilities.

On another site that ends in poo the standard response was ignore and laugh about the letters(no it's harrasssing,annoying and invading my family time with the wife and kids!!) and these letters go on for months sometimes years!! The response to being clamped was, similar,"don't worry you'll win with help from us, easy, law in our favour...." Nope not true either!

Well certainly hope the moderators on here can accept this post although initially negative in the defences against PPC, helps see from different angles and perspectives and REALITY of the chance of winning. Unfortunately Pepipoo mods were far to concerned applauding their buddies sarcy unconstructive comments to be able to take a grown up objective unbiased stance on the results of my post on a real court case.

As such they have censored my posts and now stop posting my posts, even though they proclaimed they would not censor my negative court case(losing one) however Fredd spoke with forked tongue. Whether it was bad for his website business and revenue, who knows.

|Their loss.

Anyone need advice on anything PPC related, i am as always happy to help.

 

The other site as you mention has always been a very 1-sided, dont listen to the facts just post the same message to every situation. I am sure that certain posters just cut/paste their answers.

 

You may have been correct when anything is said to question them, it could be bad for Fredds business and revenue.

[robin9342]

How do you know this as a fact ?

It appears to be the contention of many knowledgeable posters on this forum. I tend to believe them because every single time a PPC troll has been challenged to quote just one single example where a PPC has won against a proper defence, they have failed to do so.

 

The challenge remains: Name one case where a PPC has won against a properly defended case.

[couldthisbereal2]

The challenge remains: Name one case where a PPC has won against a properly defended case.

 

This could be countered with, name one case where the PPC has lost against a properly defended case ?

 

 

Would the company/PPC advertise a loss, I suspsect not.

Would the person who had the ticket come on here and advertise their victory, probarly not.

 

There are many cases that have been to court with PPCs and they have won, the defences were not advertised but a win is a win, in the same way as a loss is a loss.

 

I suspect there are also many cases where a PPC has lost in court, but the posters have not come on here to advertise.

 

I do not think there is 1 standard defence for everything, I also think some of it comes down to the judge on the day, It has long been said that you can have the same case/defence put in front of 2 different judges and get 2 different results.

[Barnsley Boy]

The small claims court IS a bit rough and ready. Not quite a lottery, but a certain random element nevertheless. When things get so far then it can go either way. The point is that the PPCs cannot possibly build a business model around taking people to court all the time. They would much prefer us to meekly accept their threats and pay accordingly.

 

Clamping is a different subject entirely. It is far more difficult to get your money back than not have to give it over in the first place.

[robin9342]

the defences were not advertised

Exactly!

[dinate]

"Would the person who had the ticket come on here and advertise their victory, probarly not"

 

I disagree

[WebFerret]

I feel "jimmylesaint" is of the view that "the cup is half empty" rather than "the cup is half full"!

 

One should remember the fact that PPCs rely on the Law of Contract to pursue people for money in these cases.

 

Under this Law, they would have to prove:

 

1) That a contract exists between the person of the alleged contravention (the driver) and the land owner. (not easy)

 

(by them writing to the RK, this does not make the RK the 'driver'; and under contract law the RK has no obligation to confirm who the driver was - in essence a pointless exercise and a question to the DVLA as to why they provide RK details? (but that's another subject!))

 

2) That they have suffered losses for the alleged contravention. (the amount they can sue you for)

 

(they cannot impose a penalty, but simply sue for losses incurred - if it's free parking then their losses would be £0 - if it's £2 an hour and the driver stayed four, then their losses would be £8 - hardly worthwhile taking someone to court over!)

 

 

In my view, it would be difficult (impossible in most cases) for a PPC to prove a case based on the above (particularly point one) and, as "robin9342" has mentioned, 'in a properly defended case', their chance of success I would consider to be nil.

 

For an example, Excel's case got a thumbs down from the judge, ruling that the sums demanded were excessive, and did not represent losses incurred!

 

So I'm with the people who recommend ignoring any correspondence from PPC's - it gives them absolutely no information, - (ie, that they have been successful in making contact with a potential 'victim' whom they would then 'hound', 'harass' into submission to pay - all the time knowing that they would have no success if pursued in court if the case was properly defended - (in that both parties turned up!) - and are more likley to give up in a matter of months rather than years.

 

This is the business model that they use to make millions each year - don't be duped by their antics - simply ignore everything (except a bonifide court summons - lol) and they will eventually go away, as has happened in my case - (I have however had to make an extra trip to the dump to dispose of the extra paper I've shredded - very inconvenient - lol)

[Conniff]

if it's £2 an hour and the driver stayed four, then their losses would be £8 -

 

Only if the carpark was full and that overstay prevented another person parking. If the park is only half full then again I would say their losses are nil.

[Al27]

This could be countered with, name one case where the PPC has lost against a properly defended case ?

 

 

Would the company/PPC advertise a loss, I suspsect not.

Would the person who had the ticket come on here and advertise their victory, probarly not.

 

There are many cases that have been to court with PPCs and they have won, the defences were not advertised but a win is a win, in the same way as a loss is a loss.

 

I suspect there are also many cases where a PPC has lost in court, but the posters have not come on here to advertise.

 

I do not think there is 1 standard defence for everything, I also think some of it comes down to the judge on the day, It has long been said that you can have the same case/defence put in front of 2 different judges and get 2 different results.

 

If a PPC wins a properly defended case, they would be on here shouting from the rooftops, believe me.

 

Latest defeat was for Minster Baywatch last Thursday: Incorrect Claim form - FightBack Forums

 

Not a 'clean' win by any means and I agree that you can get two different results on two days with two judges. And PPCs do win when the defendant hasn't prepared properly.

 

But we ARE still waiting for a well defended case not to be won.

[dinate]

Recieved my first debt collectors letter today, yay! From the same name as has been mentioned today (in another UKPC post thread) and will go to White solicitors.

 

What gets me is the fine is for parking in residents only parking spaces, all this despite me being a resident, I thought they may have guessed that they sent the letter to the same address as where I am a resident?? Bit of a giveaway me thinks.

 

I think this backs up the fact that they send them out anyway regardless of situation appeals or anything. (or actually living at the address!)

 

And I cant help when I read the letter translating it in my head as "please can you give us some money, c'mon its only 125 quid, please?? This allows us to carry on with our business of conning people, if you can have a look over leaf and send us some free money,we'd be so grateful??"

Edited September 29, 2008 by dinate

[finefight]

Hi All,

Today I received the 4th letter from Rossendales and it looks like they are trying to turn up the heat, this one is not nice at all....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Finefight

NOTICE OF VISIT

Further to our previous communications, you should note that your file has been passed to one of our debt collectors who will visit your home within the next few days to obtain full payment.

YOU CAN AVOID THIS ACTION BY:

Sending full payment to this office by return of post

Call 0845 644 4499 (Local Rate) within 48 hours to make arrangement for payment.

PLEASE TAKE NOTICE your account will NOT be overlooked. We intend to obtain full payment.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have totally ignored them so far but my concern is that I'll get some nasty looking monster turn up on my doorstep upsetting the missus.

So, just a few questions to ask the forum...

1. Has anyone else had a letter like this?

2. Has anyone had a visit? if so what happened?

3. Should I still continue to ignore them?

4. Should I consider seeking legal advice?

thanks

[WebFerret]

finefight - this most recent communication is evidence that they consider you to be a well 'hooked fish' (by vurtue of the fact that you wrote in the first instance - demonstration of my point made above about totally ignoring!)

 

However, this letter is no more than further harrasment and scare tactics - I would still ingore and wait for a stamped court summons if they dare to go that far.

 

If (and I mean IF, as I doubt they would waste their time or effort) these 'clowns' turn up, state the debt is in dispute (nothing more) and tell then to leave or you will call the police stating that they are trying to extract monies with menices (and do just that if they don't go immediatly -the more witnesses the better, so get the family round - lol) - they will soon leave or be asked to leave by the police.

 

Bottom line - no court papers, no action! - simple as that.

 

DO NOT PAY A PENNY TO THESE PEOPLE.

Edited October 1, 2008 by WebFerret

[WebFerret]

Just for the interest of this forum here is the reply I got from the DVLA when I complained about them releasing my details to these conmen...

 

Thank you for your email.

Regulation 27 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 provides for the release of information to the police, to local authorities for purposes connected with the investigation of an offence or decriminalised parking contravention, and to anyone who can demonstrate ‘reasonable cause’ to have it.

 

DVLA considers that for landowners, or their agents, to take action against vehicles that contravene parking restrictions, trespass on private land or for the removal of vehicles abandoned on their land is reasonable cause to release information.

 

DVLA does not and cannot regulate any aspect of a company’s business. Therefore it has no influence over the length of time keepers are allowed to park or any aspect of the tickets issued. This is a matter between the land owner and the company it employs to manage the car park. These and any other representations should be made to the company.

 

DVLA’s interest in relation to any company’s set up is in the context of ensuring that we meet our duty to ensure that we are aware of who information is being released to, for what reason, and how that information will be used. Information may then be disclosed under the ‘reasonable cause’ provisions.

 

Whilst seeking to ensure that vehicle keeper data is released only in appropriate circumstances it is not a matter for the agency to decide on the merits of individual cases or to arbitrate in any civil disputes between two parties.

 

DVLA would be concerned if information were to be used for a purpose other than that it was requested for. If this were to occur, DVLA would ask the Information Commissioner to investigate the matter.

Regards

Miss H D Coleman

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: ME

Sent: 09/07/2008 23:01:00

To: DVLA

Subject: complaint 09/0708

 

I am writing to you to complain about the DVLA releasing my personal details to UKPC. This company is harassing me for money in connection with an alleged parking contravention on PRIVATE property. This company is gathering a huge number of complaints and are listed on many sites as conmen! I urge you to forward this complaint to a senior manager within the DVLA. I am very annoyed that my details have been released to a company that has no legal right to threaten me with fines and debt recovery agencies - which in case you didn't know are owned and controlled by the same people. More consumer complaints can be found at consumeractiongroup

 

An intersting spin on the rules and regulations for 'selling' private data and information that should be protected under the Data Protection Act!

 

You maybe interested in the post:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dvla/161584-bbc-investigate-dvla-selling.html

 

and Bernie_the_Bolt's post of template letters on the subject:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/123409-data-protection-complaints-template.html

 

Personally, I've just written to David Cameron following the BBC's investigation to ask for his comments - now waiting for the reply!

[lamma]

Rubbish from Rossendales - yet again, my goodness they are boring I'll say that.. let them waste petrol, let them come every evening for a fortight. they have NO POWERS AT ALL - and they know it. unlawful paperwork in my opinion.

[Al27]

We got a fax from a debt collector at work the other day, touting for business. They happily exclaimed that they "had the authority and legal right to call in person to collect the debt" !

 

As for the DVLA - they're as bad as the PPCs with their standard template letters.

[finefight]

In my quest for more answers/info someone recommended a website for free legal advise so I thought I'd give it a try, here is their response....

You have committed no offence and have been ticketed by a private company whose tickets have no validity unless a case is brought at the expense of the issuer in a civil court. Under no circumstances pay them anything for pictures or get involved in any so-called "appeals procedure" nor should you disclose who was driving at the time.

The "charge" is alleged under contract law. What you have is a bill (which you can contest) from a private parking company who allege you have breached their terms and conditions by parking and/or overstaying on one of the sites they manage. It has no status in law.

These matters are covered by contract law and so they need to prove a contract has first been created and then that you have breached it. They attempt to create the contract by the signage they erect which should be clear in content and also unmissable. You should not have been able to enter or leave the car park without seeing the signs. If you entered the car park and left immediately on seeing the signs the court might agree that this was because you didn't wish to enter the contract.

The terms of the contract need to be set out in detail on the signs along with the penalty for the breach. If you believe you did not breach the contract as outlined on the signs then you would have an excellent chance of winning in court if it ever got that far. Similarly if the parking company are attempting to fine the keeper of the vehicle but they were not the driver then the case would fall unless they could be shown to be definitely in the vehicle and thus a party to the contract. You have no responsibility to tell them who was driving (even if it was you).

With reference to the cost of breaching the contract then the law is clear that any penalty should be defined beforehand and should not be punitive. The courts would usually seek that this was broadly in line with the loss to the company and the reasonable cost of enforcement and may well require that they prove this.

The reality is that they will almost certainly not attempt to enforce against you through the courts. They realise that the court is the first place you will get a fair hearing and that is the last thing they want.

 

Instead they will use debt collectors who will endlessly threaten imminent litigation, references to credit agencies, personal visits, bailiffs and the sky falling on your head. However these companies are mainly "letter factories" and it is very unlikely any of this will actually turn up. There is no possibility of any credit reference agency taking any debt claimed by such companies seriously unless they can obtain a CCJ against you.

Try adapting and using our free response letter (attached) and under no circumstances relent. You should not enter into any further correspondence with them and harden yourself to a barrage of post which you should throw in the bin. Under no circumstances should you believe threats of "last chance before legal action" or "legal action imminent". That is their stock in trade. The only response you should make is if you actually receive proceedings from the County Court when you need to come back to us.

However this is very rare. In the many thousands of cases we have knowledge of, this has only ever happened once.

Similarly if you cannot cope with the endless harassment come back to us and we will take action against them on your behalf...

Please come back to us on this or if you have any other legal matter we can assist with.

It would also be a good idea to bookmark http://www.lawanswers.co.uk in case you need free advice on any other legal question in the future.

We trust this information helps and that you found our free service comprehensive and useful. We answer questions on any legal matter so please tell anyone else who you think might benefit from our free assistance.

So there you have it, I guess it's nothing we don't already know but it's nice to get another opinion. I will keep you all updated when the next letter of doom arrives from Rossendales and once again my thanks to all who have offered advice from this forum.

[blobin69]

I Have just received a finasl reminder even when my appeal hasn't finished.

How is this legal? and why is are they allowed to have such a short appeal process as they send you a picture of some car with a ticket and say that you have to pay?? i am sending them another letter asking them to show me footage of the me leaving my car and entering at this place at the time they said.

[Kef9]

Just ignore them and dont even bother to appeal.

 

I got a ticket and they keep hassling you but eventually they go away.