Spiff500 v Nationwide

[Spiff500]

First of all, Hi to everyone - this is my first post here. But I have already gained an enormous insight into the subject from just reading. Thanks!

 

Anyway, I have a question . . . It would appear that I may have 'mis-calculated' the amount owed to me by The Nationwide in my prelim letter.

 

Let me explain; after adding up all of my charges, I completely forgot that my local branch had refunded some charges a few years ago.

 

My total charges amounted to Just over 4k, however as I say, the local branch refunded about £850 in about 4 installments. These are listed as "Refund of interest charges" on the regular statement pages and not, curiously, as Refunds on the seperate summaries of charges & refunds.

 

So, in my LBA, which of the following should I do :-

 

1) re-adjust the figure I am claiming? Although I suspect that this may raise questions and cause complications in someway?

 

2) Do nothing and continue to claim the original amount? I suspect that they will have a chance to query this at the claim stage? Should they raise it, can I simply agree to thier modified figure?

 

This raises the wider point, do you think that the amount being claimed is actually checked?

[Spiff500]

Ok - above and beyond my question above . . . I have just been struck with interest confusion!

 

Now, it seems that there are 3 choices, basic, authorised and unauthroised interest. Using the basic spreadsheet in the library - 8% simple interest is calculted.

 

Could someone please explain, in reasonably simple terms, what my options are with regard to claim of direct debits refusal fees and a few unauthorised overdraft charges.

 

I would like to keep the claim as simple as possible, maths has never been my strong point

 

However, 8% on 4k is about 4.5K - which isn fine, but I do like the sound of compound interest!!

 

Or maybe greed & revenge have clouded my judgement.

 

Does anyone have any quick spreadsheets for calculting this magical 7.75% compound interest?

[MilkTrayMan]

Hi Spiff500!

 

If U want to Claim C.I. then inform Nationwide asap by sending them a copy of your spreadsheet printout and an apologetic statement to the effect that U had forgotten to add this to your original Preliminary Letter.

Don't be surprised that they will next try to fob U off by ignoring the NEW C.I. aspect of your Claim.

Then U re-send your LBA not forgetting to include an updated version of your CI spreadsheet printout and amended Claim Total!!!

Forget about the Authorised O/D % Rate (7.75% APR)...U didn't give Nationwide permission to unlawfully take their Penalty Charges from U, so why do U want to Charge them like U had???

The correct C.I. to use is the Unauthorised O/D % Rate (24.9% APR)

...Or if U don't feel confident, Claim the s69 S.I. at the Filing @ Court stage!

Here's a link to a user friendly spreadsheet (...courtesy of Mindzai):

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/51736-excel-contractual-interest-spreadsheet.html?highlight=Excel+spreadsheet

 

 

Hope this helps?!

[Spiff500]

Thanks MilkTrayMan . . .

 

It's all starting to make sense now. As far as I can tell, the s69 rate of 8% seems to be an absolute certainty, whereas some of these higher rates of C.I. are both hellishly complex and also no where near guarenteed to succeed? Or am I wrong there?

 

I assume that a judge will ultimately decide what does and does not get paid.

 

Just out of curiosity; does anyone have any success rates for the C.I. claims? I assume that all s.69 claims are succesful, I just wonder how many C.I. claims have gone as smooth?

[MilkTrayMan]

Hi Spiff500!

Click on SEARCH at the top of this Thread.

Type in the words "Contractual Interest"

Click on GO.

Read and re-read the zillions of Threads it reveals!...lol...

 

Hope this further helps?!

[Spiff500]

Thanks again MilkTrayMan . . .

 

What a dilema; I had the whole process figured out at 8% or 0.022p per day - I had used the simple spreadsheet in the library to calculate.

 

Now I discover that it is legally theoritcal at least to apply contractual interest at 29.4% or so (0.069p per day - according to my calculations).

 

As you say there is a wealth of information on this subject. But I guess what it comes down to is,

 

1 - it would seem unlikely that The Nationwide would defend either rate or even take it to court. My understanding being that they would be unable to defend thier charges irrespective of the interest rate.

 

2 - Having made the point in 1, it all comes down to the individual judge to make the decision?

 

I think therefore in my LBA - I will include my spreadsheet with the 29.4% rate. I will expect my 'clear off' letter and then file my claim at with the 29.4% rate and then the usual "if not applicable I will claim s.69 interest at 8% as an alternative"

 

Can anyone see any significant flaws with this plan? If Nationwide get funny about it then the judge can decide, if he goes for the 8% over the 29.4% then so be it . . . but at least I tried ?

 

 

Thanks again for your advice so far !!

[MilkTrayMan]

Hi Spiff500!

Have U actually put your personal figures into Mindzai's spreadsheet???

...Or are U still trying to calculate C.I. by using your original Simple Interest spreadsheet?!

Dependant on how far back your unlawful charges were debited, C.I. can often amount to 2, 3 or sometimes 4 times the original Charge Fee!!!

Hope this helps U to clarify?!

[Spiff500]

I have used the original simple spreadsheet from the library . . . I'm a little worried that you ask this? Is this incorrect for C.I. (CONTRACTUAL interest and *NOT* COMPOUND interest?)

 

This contains a column already for 8%, I merely copied this column across and amended for 24.9%. The same net effect as using the really posh 'Mindzai' spreadsheet - which is somewhat overwhelming!

 

As far as the interest rates, for example, my first charge is :-

 

13/06/01 - UnAuth DD - £25.00 - 2042 days ago

 

Now at 8% this has earned £11.23 interest, however at the CI rate this rises to a whopping £35.28

 

I'm sure we are both agreeing on the same thing . . . the maths to upscale 8% to 24.9% are within my grasp (just!)

[MilkTrayMan]

Hi Spiff500!

Contractual Interest is interest that is Compounded on a Daily basis.

...The Simple Interest spreadsheet is NOT set up to do this calculation!

Don't just cut/paste...

Put 24.9% in the 1st page of Mindzai's spreadsheet.

Then on the Charges and Interest sheet actually enter all your details i.e. dates of debits/amounts etc.

To get the TRUE C.I. this is given when U click on the DAILY COMPOUNDED page.

Clicking in the S.I. page will give U the alternative figures, using the same data, for the Alternative S.I.

Hope this Clarifies further?!

[petewill19]

Hi Spiff500

I guess by now you may have had another reply from milktrayman but believe me there is a BIG difference between 24.9% simple interest and 24.9% compound. My charges go back to a similar time as the one you quoted and because 5 years have elapsed the original charge is multiplied considerably. A £25.00 charge on 22/06/01 with 24.9% compound interest adds £61.25 making a total of £86.25 (using the mindzai spreadsheet). I recommend you use this spreadsheet and be prepared to be gobsmacked!! Go for it..........I am!!

 

Petewill19:)

[Spiff500]

Thanks big time for all of your help guys . . . now, onto the silly questions. Got a head full of numbers and only some of it makes sense. So, 3 simple (ish) questions :-

 

Background:

All charges & dates added to the Mindzai spreadsheet and 24.9% used on the notes page. The total on the charges page adds up to 4045 as I had previously calculated.

 

Q1 - Using the simple 8% sheet from the library. Not compound, not contractual - this I now understand. This original sheet gives me the same total and calculates interest to be £549.20 a grand total of 4594.20.

 

However using this new Mindzai sheet, the total is the same on the charges page but the s.69 tab appears to have the total as £3775, with interest of £542 and a total of £4317 (not counting the pence). How does that make sense !!!!!

 

However, under the monthly tab the total is £6117 - v.nice and the daily tab lists the total as £5828.

 

Just as I tought I was beginning to understand this it has become massively confusing again !!!!!!!!!!

[MilkTrayMan]

Hi Spiff500!

 

U have to appreciate that there is a certain amount of "rounding" that takes place with any spreadsheet...either up or down.

 

The £549.2 S.I. of the original spreadsheet and the £542 S.I. of Mindzai's spreadsheet...over 6 yrs makes very little difference.

 

However the beauty of Mindzai's spreadsheet is that U only have enter your personal figures once to ALSO calculate the DAILY COMPOUNDED C.I.

Nationwide calculates the interest it unlawful charges U this way and so U should charge it likewise.

 

The MONTHLY COMPOUNDED figures are NOT applicable in your case.

[MilkTrayMan]

The total on the charges page adds up to 4045 as I had previously calculated...This original sheet gives me the same total and calculates interest to be £549.20 a grand total of 4594.20.

 

However using this new Mindzai sheet, the total is the same on the charges page but the s.69 tab appears to have the total as £3775, with interest of £542 and a total of £4317 (not counting the pence). How does that make sense !!!!!...Just as I tought I was beginning to understand this it has become massively confusing again !!!!!!!!!!

 

It would seem that U R expecting to get the same end figures from an original difference in balances of £70.

 

Mindzai's spreadsheet will only calculate what U have actually put down as unlawful Charges NOT what interest U should be getting from if U have started from a previous negative balance and have included it.

I would double check all your entries are correctly entered on BOTH spreadsheets. I shouldn't worry tooooooo much about the S.I. figures as this ISN'T what U are wanting to Claim.

If U are questioning the accuracy of the spreadsheet...ask Mindzai himself!!!!

[Spiff500]

I'm far from questioning the sanity of the spreadsheet - it's far better than what i could have achieved myself!

 

To be honest - my brain is fried; I've never really been very good with money hence these charges in the first place.

 

The thing that confuses me, plain and very simple - I have two spreadsheets; one that calculates 8% SI and the wizzy flashy Mindzai sheet.

 

*EXACTLY* the same figures entered into both - hell they both report the same total on the charges tab, so the data is identical - no question.

 

Fair point that all spreadsheets round up / down; I'm not looking for exact here. But the S.69 tab reports the total of charges as £270 less. Now that is some serious rounding going on!!!

 

Anyway - this is way way too complicated for me - I know when I'm beat! I'm just gonna go for the basic 8% at least that makes sense to me Let's face it 4.5k is plenty enough !!

 

I'm not overly greedy and I just don't understand the maths sufficently well to argue my case.

 

Research indicates that no one has retirieved this 24.9% from the Nationwide yet. Not to say they won't in the future, just not yet?

[MilkTrayMan]

Research indicates that no one has retirieved this 24.9% from the Nationwide yet. Not to say they won't in the future, just not yet?

 

Methinks U R VERY wrong on that account my friend!...lol...

Try amending your research techniques ever so slightly...

It's a self-help Forum...U can't expect EVERY answer given to U on a plate.

£270 difference in total at the end is missing the point of what comprable figures U are actually starting with!

Feel free to use either S.I. or C.I....it's YOUR Claim

What IS important, is that U FULLY understand the processes of whatever U are Claiming for.

Try reading and understanding #19 of the following Thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/54212-do-i-have-accept.html

 

Best of Luck!

[Spiff500]

Thanks MilkTrayMan . . .

 

I am incredibly grateful to you for all your assistance & guidance so far. Self help forum agreed, and up until this SI / CI interest thing I was clear of the situation and perfectly happy with the process.

 

I have just read your point #19 and the language makes perfect sense, no argument there at all.

 

I think I need to spend some time studying the maths. However I am still confused by the following 3 things. If you can offer any kind of guidance to these 3 specific points I will shut up immediately and say an enormous thankyou to you all

 

1 - Why is the total different between the (charges & int. & monthly) AND (s.69 & daily) tabs. Surely the total of charges is just a straight sum of all the deducted charges! - this is gonna keep me awake.

 

2 - I am merely claiming for deducted charges, not for interest or an overdraft or anything else unusual. I have no O/D facility, just claiming back for returned DDs / STOs at like 25, 30 quid a shot. To that end, do I need to fill out the RIGHT side of data on the int&charges tab? (INTEREST DATE, INTEREST CHARGES, ACCOUNT BALANCE etc.)

 

3 - Assuming the answer to point 2 is NO, as I am only claiming for a static amount? i.e. a SUM of all the charges removed over 6 years. Then Presumably I claim the final figure in the daily tab? But the total is wrong - does not match the total SUM of all charges.

 

Seriously I know this is a self help forum and trust me I'm trying to figure this out. I just cannot see why there are different totals to a single sum - interest or no interest this makes no sense!

 

If I have said anything unbelievably stupid here - self punishment will be enacted!

[Spiff500]

Ok - I've figured it out !!

 

'nuff respect to Mindzai for writing that sheet, but there is an error in it. The Daily and s.69 tabs only SUM up until row 153. My figures extend past this row . . . as such the smaller total was a reduced calculation!

 

Simple as that! such a small thing really knocked my confidence briefly!

 

Right then - all set to go with CI, nice figures and totals on the daily tab right there.

 

Thanks again MilkTrayMan - bug in the sheet, all sorted now.

[Spiff500]

Petewill19,

 

Thanks a lot for the double check on your figures, re the £25 that is up to £86 odd. My figures match, close enough.

 

After many hours of blood coming from my brain, everything is in and you are right I am now gobsmacked! This is clearly the way to go . . .

 

FYI - the Mindzai spreadhseet only sums to row 153 on the s.69 and daily tab! make sure you amend it to the end of your figures!

 

My prelim made no mention of interest whatsoever just a sum of the charges. I now intend to inform them of what thier choice of 24.9% does to the total in my LBA and wait to see what happens. Unless anyone thinks I should start again from a prelim?

 

Although in fairness, I think multiple letters are possibly not required. A simple, pay up or go to court in 28 days is legally sufficent I think.

 

Also, I intend to claim the 24.9% rate as a primary and then down to the s.69 8% as an alternative.

 

Even if the 24.9% doesn't happen - at least it will have caused them a little more pain.

 

Thanks again to everyone - funny how I thought this would be like falling off a log when I got my S.A.R. but compound interest really is a bugbear!

[lilmiss]

thank u for this thread! i didnt relised id missed it when asking similar questions in my thread. i was also confused on the interest part as i seem to keep rteading loads and learning more lol! well let us all know how u get on.

[MilkTrayMan]

Hi Spiff500 + lilmiss!

 

Nice to know that U R both getting to grips with the FIRST basic advice given...lol...

...i.e. READ and RE-READ loads and loads of Threads of those that have gone before U, until U FULLY understand the Re-Claiming process, BEFORE U jump in head first and then try to dig your way out of it when U realise the murky waters are a tad deeper than what U originally thought!...lol...

[lilmiss]

its those £££££££££££££ signs keep getting in the way of all this reading and taking in lol no seriously, im doing my hardest to understand everything im reading. all the advice is great, id like to think ill pass the advice on someday lol xx

[MilkTrayMan]

...id like to think ill pass the advice on someday lol xx

U make it sound like U've been afflicted with the Plague!...rofl...