Debt written off due to Carers Allowance?

[humbleman]

My reply from the OFT has arrived finally and this is what they had to say:

 

Dear Mr x,

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 ('The Act')

Complaint Against: HFC Bank, MBNA, Halifax, Mint (Royal Bank of Scotland), Capital One

Licence No: 007329, 363167, 280013, 176720, 489354

 

 

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor does not have to be provided. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor (the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when each is/was due).

 

I have not had one CC company that has supplied this.

[steven4064]

A 'true copy' as described above satisfies their obligations under s78(1) of the CCA 1974 but it is not enforceable unless it has the T&Cs and your signature (and date) on the same page. For agreements entered into after 2004, a copy of an onlline form will also do provided the whole transaction was online.

[Peterbard]

A 'true copy' as described above satisfies their obligations under s78(1) of the CCA 1974 but it is not enforceable unless it has the T&Cs and your signature (and date) on the same page. For agreements entered into after 2004, a copy of an onlline form will also do provided the whole transaction was online.

 

Hi Steven

 

I am affraid that there is no requirement for the signature box to be on the same page in agreements covered by the 1983 agreement regs it can be anywhere within the document.

This was ammended in the 2004/1482 regulations.

 

Best regards

Peter

[davey77]

Hey Maggiebroom! Yes thanks i shall continue along this rocky road and see where it takes me. Does seem the OFT send out a general reply to these thypes of consumer complaints although i must say i was quite miffed by the "With regards to Trading Standards, we are unable to comment on the level of service they have provided". A total cop-out there then as my question was their legal role of enforcement, not simply their 'level of service' but to be honest i didn't expect much more from the OFT reply than what i got back.

 

Humbleman.. your highlighted wording there is a crucial point isn't it and one that i will be reminding the FOS of if/when they get a move on with my complaints to be sure!

 

True Steven about T&Cs and other effects all on the same page. Even of the correctly dated T&Cs (of which i haven't had many of those) you would be hard pressed to link them physically with the main 'application' form as they are always seperate. Another point i will be raising with the FOS. Just wish they would get a move on though!

 

Today in the post just this from Blair, Oliver and Scott (Halifax).

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

NOTICE OF INTENDED COURT ACTION

 

HALIFAX Against

Mr Davey77

 

Sum Claimed: £1,042.64 Due By: 04/10/2007

 

Account Number: ******************

 

Formal notice is hereby given that our client has instructed us to commence court proceedings against you without delay.

 

Papers are now being prepared for commencement of action through your local court to seek a judgment againest you.

 

If you are a homeowner and do not pay the amount the court orders you to pay, we may then reapply to the court for a charging order on your property. This will give us repayment of the outstanding debt from the proceeds whenever the property is sold.

 

YOU MUST MAKE PAYMENT NOW TO STOP ACTION BEING TAKEN:

 

CALL US:

It is vital that you call us TODAY on 0870 240 5138 to make payment or talk to our helpline staff about your account. Our lines are open Monday-Friday 8.30am to 7.30pm and Saturday 8.30am to 12.30pm.

 

TO MAKE PAYMENT:

 

* Call the helpline number 0870 240 5138 for payments by debit or credit card.

 

* For internet & telephone banking, quote your account number as the reference and pay to sort code and account number ****** *******.

 

* Send a cheque/postal order today to the address above writing your account number on the reverse of the payment. Please make your cheque payable to Blair, Oliver and Scott.

 

I have given up trying to communicate with them and as the FOS complaint has been sent and acknowledged i will just wait and see now.

What i wrote on the FOS form was:

 

Wrote to Halifax 19th March 2007 (recorded delivery) asking for a copy of the credit agreement for the above account under the consumer credit act 1974 (77-79). I did not receive any reply.

On the 24 May 2007 received a letter stating that Blair, Oliver and Scott (Halifax in-house debt collection agency) had been passed the above account.

I wrote to Blair, Oliver and Scott 24 May 2007 explaining that Halifax were in default of the above request as of around the 6 April 2007 and that i did not acknowledge any debt to either Halifax or Blair, Oliver and Scott.

On 28th June i sent another CCA request to Blair, Oliver and Scott (recorded delivery) who have ignored that request.

The only reply vaguely relating to my original request was received 15 September 2007 consisting of a four line printout of charges. No properly executed agreement has been received by myself at any time.

Informed Trading Standards 30 May 2007 who have taken no action that i am aware of.

 

I understand the Ombudsman prefers a final response from an organisation before a consumer complaint is made but in this instance I have found that impossible due to the complete lack of communication from Halifax. They ignore all correspondence and refuse to reply in a professional manner to any detail or requests made to them.

Likewise, Blair, Oliver and Scott refuse to acknowledge letters or correspond with me on this matter.

 

I have spent six months trying to illicit a response from Halifax and recently threatened court action but my finances do not permit that at the moment so am relying on the Ombudsman to resolve matters.

 

I enclose with this complaint copies of the correspondence since my original CCA request in March 2007 and as you will see I have been generous in allowing enough time for Halifax to comply even though they have committed a criminal offence in not supplying the relevant documentation within the statutory timeframe.

[davey77]

Hi Steven

 

I am affraid that there is no requirement for the signature box to be on the same page in agreements covered by the 1983 agreement regs it can be anywhere within the document.

This was ammended in the 2004/1482 regulations.

 

Best regards

Peter

 

Thanks for the input Peter.. it's all a mine-field of legalities and technicalities this business isn't it!

[davey77]

I see BOS's website is closed, been that way for quite some time:

! Web Site Closed !

[Peterbard]

Hi Davey

Tell me about it

Have a look at the CCA thread i also got a letter from the OFT.

 

Best regards

Peter

[davey77]

Hi Peter.. yes just finished reading your OFT reply! phewww what a very aggressive/defensive response from them! At least mine was half polite.

 

Is that really how the OFT view consumers request re CCA? That the public at large are all dodgy shadey characters trying to defraud the honest hard working creditors by trying to use legalities to wiggle out of a debt?!

 

Personally, I would write back to them simply stating that it is highly offensive to suggest that debtors are using the CCA in such a way and shocking that this is how the OFT view such matters! No wonder the OFT seem to allow criminal offences to go unchecked so easily if this is their view.

[Peterbard]

HI Davey

Yes i think i am not someones favorite person.

I am drafting a response as we speak it seems to me that it needs to be clarified exactly what the OFT do, and if they are complying to there remit and justifying the cost that their opperation puts on the tax payer.

As far as I can see they do not give advice to anyone,they just issue copious amounts of informatiom and offer it to the ether, it is not to be taken as authorotive or binding by court creditor or debtor.

They have the power to enforce but do not ,they have the power to review credit licences but choose not to.

It seems to me that they have put themslves in the enviable possition of being able to give advice, but not giving advice thus avoidng any consequences. .

 

Best regards

Peter

[davey77]

Finally some post although rather disappointing as it seems Blair, Oliver and Scott have given up on me!

 

EOS Solutions UK Plc

2 Birchwood Office Park

Crab Lane

Fearnhead

Warrington

WA2 0XS

 

Mr D x,

 

Ref: ********

 

Our Client: HALIFAX PLC (CREDIT CARD)

 

URGENT

The above debt has been passed to us by our client for collection

 

PAYMENT IN FULL is required IMMEDIATELY

 

Failure to respond to this letter could result in:

 

* The account being passed to your LOCAL COUNTY COURT for action

 

* Arrangements being made for one of our FIELD COLLECTORS to call on you to recover the outstanding balance.

 

***Please ring now on 08709031756 to avoid further action***

 

* For details of how to pay see overleaf

[davey77]

My one and only reply to EOS Solutions:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

Further to your recent communication in which you demand payment towards the above alleged debt.

 

As a courtesy I should like to make you aware of the current situation. The above account is in formal dispute as a Consumer Credit Act 1974 (sections 77-79) request has failed to be produced on 2 separate occasions.

 

Halifax Plc and Blair, Oliver and Scott have thereby committed a criminal offence and the above account should not have been passed to EOS Solutions UK Plc as per OFT guidelines.

 

I do not acknowledge any debt to EOS Solutions Uk Plc, Halifax Plc or Blair, Oliver and Scott.

 

Please be advised that any further demands for payment and/or visits by field agents will be considered attempted fraud under the Fraud Act 2006 and will result in a Police report being sent to the Local Constabulary and immediate Court Action.

 

Further, please take note that any detail contained in any further correspondence from EOS Solutions UK Plc shall be taken as a statement of truth in Law and could be produced as evidence in any future Court Proceedings.

 

The Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) is currently investigating my complaint in this matter and I suggest EOS Solutions seeks legal advice as to their standing in this regard.

 

 

 

Yours Sincerely, me

 

[steven4064]

I like it! It reads like the sort of letter they might have sent you

[davey77]

tehe thanks! Yes, I find that after all this time it's best to try to leave emotion out of correspondense and talk to them with the same disdain and 'solicitor-speak' that they dish out to everyone else. They seem to take notice of those sorts of letters much more!

[davey77]

Another couple of letters i have sent off the last few weeks including the renewed FOS complaint re Mint. Been a bit lax about getting stuff on here lately but it's all up to date now:

 

To HFC Bank:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

As per the detail of your letter dated 29 August 2007 it was my understanding that you were not prepared to communicate further regarding the ongoing dispute involving the above account.

 

It was also stated in your letter of the 13 June that it was my right to complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) with a view to resolving the above dispute.

 

Therefore the recent final demand letter from you seems completely inappropriate considering in your last correspondence HFC stated:

 

“...no further correspondence will be entered into regarding this matter unless it is received from the FOS”.

 

You were aware i was planning on reporting this matter to the FOS in my letter of the 10 July 2007. I must only assume therefore that you are purposefully ignoring the impending FOS investigation by threatening legal proceedings? Or trying to speed up the collection process on the above alleged debt thereby avoiding any FOS involvement?

 

Therefore, If it is your intention to proceed to court as stated in your recent communication then please be fully aware that i shall be bringing to the attention of a Judge that HFC forestalled any FOS investigation and thereby wasted valuable court time in not allowing the FOS to investigate fully.

 

Above you will note the FOS Reference Number regarding my complaint against HFC Bank.

If the recent final demand was sent in error then I expect HFC Bank to act responsibly and lawfully in allowing the FOS to proceed with their investigation.

 

Yours sincerely, me

 

To the FOS (re Mint).

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Further to my recent complaint re Mint (RBOS).

I am sorry for not writing sooner but my status as a full time carer means time is limited.

 

I have received Mints final response and wish to ask the FOS to continue to investigate due to my belief that Mint still have not resolved my complaint to my satisfaction.

 

Is it not my wish to waste the Ombudsman’s time or be belligerent in this matter but after research and advice i have been given i still feel that the documents sent to me in relation to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 request do not comply to the letter of said Act or OFT guidelines in what should constitute a properly executed agreement.

 

Please find enclosed my original complaint form and supporting documents as well as Mints final response letter, which, on this one and only occasion contained terms and conditions relevant to the date of original card application. (Previous replies to my request have contained only current T&Cs.) These pages are only connected to my original application form by a hand-written name and account number scribbled at the top in pen. (Not by myself.)

 

I understand that for a regulated agreement to be properly executed, it must contain all the prescribed terms of the agreement and conform to regulations and If therefore any of the prescribed terms are missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor, and the court is precluded from making an enforcement order.

 

This said, the ‘application form’ that i have received in response to any CCA request does not contain all information as laid out in the Act and OFT guidelines for prescribed terms on the same document (amount of credit, credit limit, repayments, rate of interest etc) and, as such in my view, does not fully comply.

 

Yours sincerely, me

 

And to Barclays:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Would you please reply to my previous letter dated 24 Aug 2007 as a matter of urgency re my request of my letter dated 29 June 2007.

 

My previous correspondence gave all the necessary information for the above request to be completed and as the statutory timeframe has lapsed severely and a criminal offence has been committed by Barclays I had hoped you would take this matter very seriously.

 

Recent postal delays not withstanding it has been almost 2 months since my last reply in this regard therefore if i do not receive a properly executed agreement or your confirmation that one isn’t available in relation to the above account by the end of this month (October) then i will have no alternative but to involve the Financial Ombudsman Service with a view to resolving this matter expeditiously.

 

I hope that action will not be needed and that I shall hear from you shortly,

 

Yours sincerely, me

[reallymadwoman]

Hi Davey,

Interesting thread and I look forward to hearing more.

 

Be aware that you will need to hold the Ombudsman's hand and spell out absolutely everything. I state this as an old hand at FOS complaints. Do not assume they will read anything you send, and be prepared for them to give the banks months to reply whereas you will only get 2 weeks. Which of course means that a fairly straightforward complaint, like XXX Bank won't reply to my letters, can take a year to sort out.

 

Don't let any of that put you off though - go for it, but be patient!

[davey77]

hey reallymad.. yes i know what you mean... my first FOS complaint went out the beginning of July and they still haven't really got their teeth into the matter yet. Now it's October. But i will keep the pressure on for sure and won't give up!

 

A couple of letters in the post today one of which is a bit odd really. Firstly from the FOS to say that (surprise surprise):

 

Dear Mr x,

 

Your complaint about Bank of Scotland plc trading as Halifax

 

Thank you for sending us details of your complaint.

 

It would appear that Bank of Scotland plc have not yet issued their final response on your complaint even though they have had the required eight weeks in which to do so.

 

It may be possible for the firm to issue their final response shortly; we have therefore contacted Bank of Scotland plc and requested that they issue their final response letter within the next 14 days.

 

We will contact you again upon receipt of the final response from Bank Of Scotland plc or when the 14 day time limit has expired.

 

So i guess that proves the FOS don't really read complaints as i made a point saying that i hadn't had any response from Halifax let alone a final one. Hmmm oh well, watch this space...

 

also strangley from Blair,, Oliver and Scott! Now yesterday i had that 'we have been passed the debt' letter from EOS Solutions. Assuming that they were seperate from BOS but now i'm not so sure:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Thank you for your recent communication. This has been forwarded to the Agent dealing with your account who will contact you in due course if required.

 

Please quote the above account number on all correspondence and address them to Logic group Plc, 2 Birchwood Office Park, Crab Lane, Fearnhead, warrington, WA2 0XS.

 

How odd eh? The address on the back of the envelope was fife (BOS) and the letter head was BOS but this address THEY are quoting is EOS Solutions! Me thinks the two companies are one and the same then?? I shall see what i can find out...

[davey77]

Can't see anything about EOS's relationship/connection with Blair, Oliver and Scott on their website:

EOS Solutions UK - Your partner for financial solutions

 

But they say things like:

 

The range of debt collection services offered by EOS includes the recovery of your customer's debts: you assign the outstanding receivables to us. We use all the tact and feel that is required for your customer to resume payment. The objective is to close the cases at low cost and out of court.

 

...Your receivables do not have to be titled until all collection steps have failed to bring success. EOS will put you in touch with a specialized law firm so that the complicated procedure will be as simple as possible for you.

 

The lawyers under contract to EOS guarantee adherence to the prescribed methods and time periods. They take care of the payment order and, if necessary, the writ of execution, instruct the bailiff and effect the submission of the statutory declaration. You are always kept up-to-date. Naturally you can also involve your own lawyers in the process.

 

If the judicial proceedings also fail to bring success, EOS will monitor your receivables for a period of up to 30 years. After all, your debtor’s financial situation can change for the better as the years go by.

 

30 Years!!! Sod off!

[reallymadwoman]

...Your receivables do not have to be titled until all collection steps have failed to bring success.

 

If the judicial proceedings also fail to bring success, EOS will monitor your receivables for a period of up to 30 years. After all, your debtor’s financial situation can change for the better as the years go by.

 

30 Years!!! Sod off!

 

This is unbelievable! Not that they do it, we all know that, but that they would put it on their website! And of course we all know they use a multitude of different names and addresses, for which the only possible reason is to confuse.

 

So far as the Ombudsman's reply goes, told you they wouldn't read anything. My current complaint, literally Bank of Scotland not replying to any letters, has been going on since February. It's the second similar complaint about them that has ended up with the FOS and they've come up with exactly the same excuses, 'mistakes as to fact' and direct contradictions of earlier statements that they did last time.

I've found that it helps if you set out your responses really clearly using the formula - nature of complaint - details with at least one example - problem this has caused - what they need to do to put it right, and don't be frightened of repeating yourself - that's what copy and paste are for. If it's worth saying once ....

As I said, don't assume they will read copy letters etc that you have sent (I've had several letters asking for copies of X, Y and Z when I've already sent them and they've been acknowledged) so make sure you refer to them in detail e.g. 'as my letter of ... shows I did this and ...'.

Sorry if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs!

[davey77]

yes i think i have just twigged that EOS have just taken over the account and not had it transfered completely from BOS. I suspect BOS are still in overall 'ownership'. Ho hum. I'm not bothered whoever has it! They ain't getting a penny from me!

 

No thats very useful info and a good reminder for me, thanks reallymad. I will certainly put as much info into, and spell it out for, the FOS in any further letters (assuming they ever get around to actually asking me what i think of course!)

 

I like eggs by the way!

[reallymadwoman]

I sometimes wonder if I've spent more time writing to the Ombudsman than I spent writing to Bank of Scotland in the first place. I also complained that one of BOS standard responses to letters was to ask me to phone and when I did, they didn't want to discuss (for that read refused to discuss) my letters, just wanted to bully me into paying more. FOS response was that I could have replied in writing - when I'd just sent them copies of the 30 odd letters I'd written in reply! Moral - try to think like a DCA and come up with every conceivable excuse then refute it before they get chance.

Actually think and DCA in the same sentence? Unlikely.

[davey77]

hey.. yes you do get the impression that the FOS are running on autopilot most of the time and just going through the motions. Which is why they say things like 'if we don't hear from you regarding this matter we well take no futher action etc' hoping that you will go away. Yeah right!

 

Oh DCA and 'think'... ermm yeah right! lol

[davey77]

Dear Mr x,

 

Reference Barclaycard Personal Loan Account Number ******** (master Loan Account)

 

I write further to your letter dated 19 October 2007 requesting a copy of your credit aggreement under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act.

 

Firstly please accept my apologies for the delay in responding to your request however after looking into your file i can confirm we were not in receipt of your letter dated 24 August 2007.

 

I am aware that Helen Gould did respond to your initial letter dated 29 June 2007 and asked you to supply us with more information regarding your Barclaycard Account.

 

The Account Number ******** is in fact a Barclaycard Personal Loan Account and not a Barclaycard Credit Card Account; therefore we are unable to deal with your request from this department, however I have forwarded your letter onto the relevant department who will ensure your request is carried out.

 

I am aware that a request under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act has been complied with from the Barclaycard Personal Loan Dept, however if you have any further queries relating to your Barclaycard Personal Loan, please contact Carmel Campbell on 0870 ........

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Maria Roy

Court Orders and Disclosures Clerk

Legal and Regulatory Compliance

Dept LRC

[they-won't-beat-me]

Hiya davey77

 

I'm new here and have just finished reading your thread - GO DAVEY GO!!. You are an inspiration to us all. I have been challenging 12 lending institutions, the same way as you and it is great to be able to read your info as I can totally rrelate to it - It's great to know that I am not on my own.

 

Keep us posted and I will start a thread with my info - I have been challenging from 22nd July 2007 and am getting the same kind of useless response as yourself.

 

Keep up the fight for the truth !!!

[davey77]

Hey there.. thanks thats really nice of you to say! I will be interested to read your thread once it's up and running for sure!

 

Hope i can be of some help along the way.. keep in touch!

[they-won't-beat-me]

Hi again, just a bit of info that you may not be aware of. It is possible that the banking instrument (original application form) may have been sold to raise more funds for the banks using Fractional Reserve Banking. The way I understand it (and this is only my interperetation of the research that I have done) Banks will sell banking instruments (promisory notes) to raise capital which they put into an account opened in your name, an account which you know nothing about. Say you applied for a line of credit of £10K (loan or Credit Card) - the bank would sell your signature for around £100K and deposit in your name and then LEND you £10K of your own money!! And then charge you interest!! on your own money. The banks need to show evidence that they have withstood a loss - by lending you THEIR money, but they can't because against your name in their accounts it will only show a PROFIT of £90K - this is how the banking [problem] has been used for years to achieve a debt run society. Money does not exist until it is BORROWED into existance. The UK now has no gold reserves to back its paper money and is now only creating Fiat (fake) money. Under law, if someone issues you fake money, you do not have to pay it back. Do some research on Fiat money, search the net for a book by Mary E Croft, an on-line publication, which will just blow your mind. Whilst I am tackling the banks the same as you: Barclaycard, MBNA Loan,MBNA Credit Card, Lloyds TSB Credit Card, Lloyds TSB Loan & Capital Bank, I am actually going to the heart of the problem and asking for their proof of loss as shown in their banking journals - they sure don't like you challenging at this level.

 

PM me and I will send you, privately, copies of letters that are very powerful.

 

Mary