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    • I know dx and thanks again for yours and others help. I was 99.999% certain last payment was over six years ago if not longer.  👍
    • Paragraph 23 – "standard industry practice" – put this in bold type. They are stupid to rely on this and we might as well carry on emphasising how stupid they are. I wonder why they could even have begun to think some kind of compelling argument – "the other boys do it so I do it as well…" Same with paragraph 26   Paragraph 45 – The Defendants have so far been unable to produce any judgements at any level which disagree with the three judgements…  …court, but I would respectfully request…   Just the few amendments above – and I think it's fine. I think you should stick to the format that you are using. This has been used lots of times and has even been applauded by judges for being meticulous and clear. You aren't a professional. Nobody is expecting professional standards and although it's important that you understand exactly what you are doing – you don't really want to come over to the judge that you have done this kind of thing before. As a litigant in person you get a certain licence/leeway from judges and that is helpful to you – especially if you are facing a professional advocate. The way this is laid out is far clearer than the mess that you will get from EVRi. Quite frankly they undermine their own credibility by trying to say that they should win simply because it is "standard industry practice". It wouldn't at all surprise me if EVRi make you a last moment offer of the entire value of your claim partly to avoid judgement and also partly to avoid the embarrassment of having this kind of rubbish exposed in court. If they do happen to do that, then you should make sure that they pay everything. If they suddenly make you an out-of-court offer and this means that they are worried that they are going to lose and so you must make sure that you get every penny – interest, costs – everything you claimed. Finally, if they do make you an out-of-court offer they will try to sign you up to a confidentiality agreement. The answer to that is absolutely – No. It's not part of the claim and if they want to settle then they settle the claim as it stands and don't try add anything on. If they want confidentiality then that will cost an extra £1000. If they don't like it then they can go do the other thing. Once you have made the amendments suggested above – it should be the final version. court,. I don't think we are going to make any more changes. Your next job good to make sure that you are completely familiar with it all. That you understand the arguments. Have you made a court familiarisation visit?
    • just type no need to keep hitting quote... as has already been said, they use their own criteria. if a person is not stated as linked to you on your file then no cant hurt you. not all creditors use every CRA provider, there are only 3 main credit file providers mind, the rest are just 3rd party data sharers. if you already have revolving credit on your file there is no need to apply for anything just 'because' you need to show you can handle money. if you have bank account(s) and a mortgage which you are servicing (paying) then nothing more can improve your score, despite what these 'scam' sites claiml  its all a CON!!  
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alanfromderby Beneficial - DPA (No Data Held), CCA(1974) Disclosure Offence Committed


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Another one started today. This is a Visa Card that was withdrawn around 1999, but is being paid through TBI Financial Services. The first letter off today to the DCA, will get the DPA off to HFC/Beneficial during the next couple of days. Once again this is being claimed on the argument that a debt cannot be statute barred by one party, whilst it is enforcible by the other.

 

 

 

 

TBI Financial Services Ltd

185 Elgar Road

Reading

Berkshire

RG2 0DL

2nd May 2006

Dear Sirs,

Reference: BENEFICIAL BANK / x/xxxxxxxx

Please be aware that I no longer acknowledge this debt to your company, and therefore require you to supply the following documentation before I will correspond further.

 

Firstly, you must supply me with a true copy of the agreement you refer to in this matter. This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a £1 postal order in payment of the statutory fee.

 

I also require that you supply a signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above referenced agreement.

 

You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested. I am now initiating investigations with Beneficial Finance into the validity of the original amount that was claimed to be owed, and will be in contact with you again in due course. In the meantime please be aware that I consider this matter to be “in dispute.

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Great letter - good luck.

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Excellent letter from TBI this morning. It would seem that they have not got a copy of the original agreement and have had to contact HFC/Beneficial to get a copy.

 

The clock is ticking.

 

It also means that if HFC/Beneficial do send them a copy - and then fail to supply it with my DPA request...... :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The news gets better.

 

I had a very interesting letter from HFC (Beneficial) this morning, explaining that they could not provide any transactional information from more than six years ago, and have duly returned my postal order.

 

They did send a few sheets of information referring to 2004/5, but have confirmed that they made a decision in 1999 not to pursue the debt. What they did not send was the original signed agreement - although I have to say I did not specifically ask for it.

 

This poses an interesting point, since TBI (who have bought the debt), have written to HFC to request a copy of the original agreement. If they get the same response, that HFC have no information further back than 6 years - they will be effectively stuffed.

 

No signed agreement, no case....end of!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

The time warp is now over, so I can finally post this: :)

 

Tomorrow morning I reach a very interesting position.

 

We had a Visa card with Beneficial Bank (now part of HFC), which was closed around 1999. The debt was eventually bought by TBI Financial Services, to whom we have been paying a small monthly payment.

 

The original debt contained a large amount of fees, and the intention was to challenge these, however it would seem that neither TBI or HFC/Beneficial have any of the records - and as at tomorrow morning, TBI will have committed an offence under the Consumer Credit Act, in that they will have failed to provide the statutory information within one month of the request.

 

So, I would suggest that the money they claim is owed (£1042.55) is now unenforceable, and any attempt by them to try and enforce it will result in a complaint to Trading Standards, and a very rough ride for them through the county court - and that is if they manage to get their hands on the orginal documents!!

 

8 hours to go....and hopefully another victory on my road back to being solvant!! :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Best of luck Alan... these organisations really make most of their money from people who DON'T BOTHER to fight back... and it seems a lot of it is illegal/unlawful money.

 

Just remember the phrase "... and lack of it is a complete defence..."

 

Now - with this being a criminal offence, which individual has committed it? And who do you contact to report it - surely not the police? Surely this is now not a matter for you to pursue, as criminal law enforcement is not dealt with by the County Courts...???

 

What would your next step be?

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Now - with this being a criminal offence, which individual has committed it? And who do you contact to report it - surely not the police? Surely this is now not a matter for you to pursue, as criminal law enforcement is not dealt with by the County Courts...???

 

What would your next step be?

 

This is a very good question. My understanding was that it was a matter that Trading Standards were supposed to pursue, but I read on another thread that in a similar situation they just contacted the DCA to ask for an explanation.

 

As far as I am concerned, I am not interested in following it up as I have more important battles to fight. Of course, should they decide to try enforcement action, or put any adverse report on my credit file, then they will find themselves in court.

 

At the moment though, assuming that I don't hear from them in the morning, I am happy to accept the unenforceability of the £1042.55 owed, as being a fair offset against their unlawful charges. If they feel they can persuade a District Judge differently, then the ball is in their court.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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It seems to me that AFD is pursuing these claims with something akin to holy zeal. Good for you - they collude in engineering customers into positions of debt - and the fightback is bound to give them a bloody nose...good luck.

 

I sincerely expect the goodwill to be reciprocated when I make my second claim, for a fifth refund, from HSBC. D'you know, I am jealous of all people who have claims against more than one institution...:mad:

Alecto, Magaera et Tisiphone: Nemesis on Earth is come.

 

All advice and opinions given by Spiceskull are personal, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Hi Alan

 

1st thing, Great news - Keep it up, you are an inspiration

 

I have a couple of quetions

 

I am in a similar position, Equidebt took over my original debt (Charges etc) from Alliance & Leicester.

 

Now the first question, Time scales, Should if I use your letter, apart from amending it to my needs, Should I add a 40 day time scale, Is that reasonable time to get this information from them

 

Also, With the Account now in Dispute, All payments should stop, Am I right ?

 

I will start my own thread with further details as I progress, just that I need at clarify a couple of questions prior to taking further action.

 

All help is Very much appreciated, and as I win, I will donate, and fill in the Survey

 

Another one started today. This is a Visa Card that was withdrawn around 1999, but is being paid through TBI Financial Services. The first letter off today to the DCA, will get the DPA off to HFC/Beneficial during the next couple of days. Once again this is being claimed on the argument that a debt cannot be statute barred by one party, whilst it is enforcible by the other.

 

 

 

 

TBI Financial Services Ltd

185 Elgar Road

Reading

Berkshire

RG2 0DL

 

2nd May 2006

 

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Reference: BENEFICIAL BANK / x/xxxxxxxx

 

Please be aware that I no longer acknowledge this debt to your company, and therefore require you to supply the following documentation before I will correspond further.

 

Firstly, you must supply me with a true copy of the agreement you refer to in this matter. This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a £1 postal order in payment of the statutory fee.

 

I also require that you supply a signed true copy of the deed of assignment of the above referenced agreement.

 

You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, under section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested. I am now initiating investigations with Beneficial Finance into the validity of the original amount that was claimed to be owed, and will be in contact with you again in due course. In the meantime please be aware that I consider this matter to be “in dispute.

 

 

Yours faithfully

Regards

Sophie

 

Thank you

 

Please Note

Advice & opinions of Sophie-Jane are offered informally, without prejudice and without liability. Please use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts

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Now the first question, Time scales, Should if I use your letter, apart from amending it to my needs, Should I add a 40 day time scale, Is that reasonable time to get this information from them

 

Also, With the Account now in Dispute, All payments should stop, Am I right ?

 

 

In the case of the Consumer Credit Act it is not a case of what is reasonable as far as time is concerned. The legislation says that the Debt Collection Agency should provide a copy of the agreement within 12 working days, and that after 1 month, they have committed an offence.

 

If they fail to supply in 12 working days they are in default and cannot legally enforce the debt until they supply the document - so at that point you are within your rights to stop payment.

 

After the 1 month they have committed an offence. At this stage you can either report them to Trading Standards, or do as I am doing, and hold that in reserve should they try to seek enforcement.

 

Of course this does not stop you from issuing a DPA request to Alliance and Leicester - and you can the pursue them for a refudn of charges. In my case I am not interested in doing this as my gut feeling is that the amount is roughly what I owe them - and they are unlikely to still have the records.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Alan

 

You have posted some very good information in this thread for people in the same boat, thanks for the insight, help and advice, and good luck with all your conquests. It is extremly interesting the way you are tackling this lot!!

 

Chris

Chrismc v Vertex Data Science Ltd

SD Set Aside WON + Costs

 

 

Chrismc v Barclays

Won - Settlement Agreed at 11th Hour.

 

Philips Bailiffs

Lost - Judge changed at last minute, it didn't help!

 

G-MAC Early Redemption Charges Waived

Won - Early Redemtion Fees Waived in Full.

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Of course this does not stop you from issuing a DPA request to Alliance and Leicester - and you can the pursue them for a refudn of charges. In my case I am not interested in doing this as my gut feeling is that the amount is roughly what I owe them - and they are unlikely to still have the records.

 

I have continued mine on the following link

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=5162&page=2

 

it is part of my Action against Alliance & Leicester

Regards

Sophie

 

Thank you

 

Please Note

Advice & opinions of Sophie-Jane are offered informally, without prejudice and without liability. Please use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts

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I have 2 accounts i think may fall inline with your super letter. i wonder if you can tell me whether it applys if i explain in brief detail.

 

number1 Account started with first national in 2000. defaulted through redundency and offered reduced payment, for 3 months to give me time to find employment. also i must add i had PPI to cover me. but as i never signed on the dole they would not pay. taken to court by Davis and co and filed a defense. the judge accepted the defence and took off the payment i had made from the total owed, plus the PPI amount. leaving a figure os £2500 owed. i then paid 10.00 a month as directed by the judge to davis and co. last year i had another company contact me to tell me they now had the debt and i would need to pay them, not one ounce of paperwork hhave i seen nor any agreements have been made. does your letter apply here.

 

number2 I had finace on my car and fell behind with the payments all around the same time. I was passed over to close management by blackhorse and for that they charged me £500 in costs. they re possessed the car and i have not heard anything since, that was 3 months ago. they charged me a towing fee on top. the car was supposed to be auctioned and the final sale price taken off the total. i do stiull not know how much it sold for. there is probably £300.00 in charges over and above the 500.

 

Thanks for all your help on this forum.

MANY MANY THANKS

REWARDSNOW AND CREDITSCOREMATTERS ARE NOW GETTING THEIR COME UPPANCE, I WILL MAKE SURE OF THAT

 

Grabby bank are the thorn in my side.

Claim issued 31st may 06

Served 5th june 06

Judgement obtained 20th june 06

Claim amount 1305.19 inc costs

CCA letter sent to Activ Kapital (now in default. 60+ days have passed)

CCa letter sent to Close management(21st june no response what so ever)

Data Protection Act letter sent to Black Horse(21st june no response so far)

Data Protection Act letter sent to First National(no response either.)

DFS has succumbed to my request for a new suite as the last one was not fit for purpose

All letters sent recorded and signed for.

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In both cases I would certainly send the above request along with the statutory £1 fee - if nothing else it should clarify whether all the documentation is correct, and that they are legally entitled to pursue you.

 

At the same time you should send a DSAR to the original creditor along with the £10 fee.

 

After you have received all the documents supplied under both requests, you can then assess the situation. It is impossible to give a definitive answer until that has been done.

 

At that point however, you should the be in a position to either:

 

a) challenge any unlawful charges added to the loans, or

b) consider the debt to be unenforceable due to default on providing the evidence.

 

It is important to remember though, that where a County Court Judgement exists, and the debt has not been sold on, you may need to seek a set-aside of that judgement.

 

When the CCJ was obtained a number of years ago, it is important to stress to the court that you have obtained new information that causes you to dispute the original debt.

 

It is also worth noting that the DCA is not going to be happy with the situation and will make numerous threats - the point is that they have to be able to back those threats up with evidence. If they have not provided this evidence to you under a statutory request, they then have to seek permission from a District Judge before they can commence an action that depends on those documents - should they suddenly come to light.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Alan, when they failed to comply with the CCA request, thereby making the debt unenforceable, did you write telling them you would no longer ackmowledge the debt (or someyhing similar) or have you left them to get on with it, only to take action if they try to persue you?

 

I ask because Aktiv Kapital's deadline for my case is Monday 19th, and I'd like to know if I should write to them or leave it be.

... a little

Mahala is a powerful thing ...

 

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All advice is offered informally. If in any doubt, seek professional advice.

Barclays:claiming £908. Defence filed

Simply Be: settled in full

Abbey: Claim issued for DPA compliance order

GE Capital: Claim issued for DPA compliance order

Aktiv Kapital: Failed to comply with CCA disclosure. Debt unenforceable.

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In these cases they said that the debts would be put "on hold" pending them obtaining the documents from HFC/Beneficial. Therefore i don't see the need to contact them. I have a case with Aktiv Kapital - have a look at my thread with GE Money (Debenhams).

 

That is different as they did provide the agreement, but I did send them a letter regarding my dispute with GE over their failure to comply with my DSAR.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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alan, you're not a lawyer by any chance??? if you're not you should be! all your postings are increadibly helpful to me. I've struggled with debt for about 15 years, single mum, working etc. until i found this website I have always felt totally ashamed and humiliated by my debt problems. since reading all of this i realise that a huge amount of what i struggle with is charges etc put onto my accounts. not any more, god help them! I am about to send CCA to a dca and DSAR to original creditor. The origial creditor passed it to dca 1 who then passed it to dca2. who do i send the cca to. I notice your copy was to HF regarding Robinson Way (ex HFC). sorry for being thick but who was your original creditor? HFC? so who then was Robinson way and Horwich Farrelly?

 

thank you , thank you!

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Firstly, I am not a lawyer - and it is important to remember that any advice given on this forum is from lay people who have gained some experiance from their own situations.

 

In my situation the debt was originally with HFC - they passed it to Robinson Way, who then passed it to Horwich Farrelly.

 

It is important to send the CCA letter to any company that writes requesting payment of the debt. Unless they can provide evidence that they legitimately own the debt, then they have no legal right to be trying to collect it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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no it's okay Alan, I realise that you're not a lawyer and that the advice is given by lay people. my point is simply that your knowledge has helped me and i'm sure others. the debt was passed to intrum justitia who i had been paying regularly, when i was ill and missed payments it's been a company called debt investigations (UK) ltd that's been writing, they say if i don't arrange payments with them it will be passed back to intum justitia. so would i send CCA to both companies? original debt was with HSBC. thanks

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just a quick question.

I dare say that charges have been added by various DCA on the way to getting the fianl amount to be payable now.

Is it worth contacting any of the DCA in the middle of this debt to find out if any unlawful charges have been added by them.

REWARDSNOW AND CREDITSCOREMATTERS ARE NOW GETTING THEIR COME UPPANCE, I WILL MAKE SURE OF THAT

 

Grabby bank are the thorn in my side.

Claim issued 31st may 06

Served 5th june 06

Judgement obtained 20th june 06

Claim amount 1305.19 inc costs

CCA letter sent to Activ Kapital (now in default. 60+ days have passed)

CCa letter sent to Close management(21st june no response what so ever)

Data Protection Act letter sent to Black Horse(21st june no response so far)

Data Protection Act letter sent to First National(no response either.)

DFS has succumbed to my request for a new suite as the last one was not fit for purpose

All letters sent recorded and signed for.

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if i find that the charges were unlawful at the time can i now apply to have the judgement set aside. it is 4 years since judgement was granted.

i have sent off dpa to both companies (recorded delivery) and also sent off cca request to the DCA companies. (recorded as well)

My problem with this was the PPI. if they had of paid out i would not be in this mess.

I was laid off full time employment at christmas for a company i had worked for 7 years.

the company went bust.

i waited the 30 days to apply for PPI and then was told i would hear in due course.

After 3 months they had played me around and fobbed me off with lies, they decided as i had not signed on unemployment benefit i would not qualify. As according to their terms and conditions i would only be unemployed if claiming benefit.The governor of the firm moved abroad to save what little money he had left and we could not contact him for confirmation that i had lost my job.

i have no young children and my wife works so i would not have qualified for any benefit anyway. just got my head down looking for a job,

REWARDSNOW AND CREDITSCOREMATTERS ARE NOW GETTING THEIR COME UPPANCE, I WILL MAKE SURE OF THAT

 

Grabby bank are the thorn in my side.

Claim issued 31st may 06

Served 5th june 06

Judgement obtained 20th june 06

Claim amount 1305.19 inc costs

CCA letter sent to Activ Kapital (now in default. 60+ days have passed)

CCa letter sent to Close management(21st june no response what so ever)

Data Protection Act letter sent to Black Horse(21st june no response so far)

Data Protection Act letter sent to First National(no response either.)

DFS has succumbed to my request for a new suite as the last one was not fit for purpose

All letters sent recorded and signed for.

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  • 1 month later...

ok so far. I have sent all 4 letters off to the various companies.

2 DCAs and they both had £1.00 postal order. Also 2 companies the original accounts were with, and the respective £10.00 postal orders for them, I have only recieved 1 answer from one of the 4 companies and that was just to say that they had recieved my letter and would look into things,.

other than that i have heard nothing now for 31 days. allowing for first class recorded delivery the time is up tomorrow i would think,

all letters posted on the 21st june.

Shall i send them a letter or hold fire and do nothing, waiting for their next move,

the two original companies still have 10 days left to send out the DSAR,

REWARDSNOW AND CREDITSCOREMATTERS ARE NOW GETTING THEIR COME UPPANCE, I WILL MAKE SURE OF THAT

 

Grabby bank are the thorn in my side.

Claim issued 31st may 06

Served 5th june 06

Judgement obtained 20th june 06

Claim amount 1305.19 inc costs

CCA letter sent to Activ Kapital (now in default. 60+ days have passed)

CCa letter sent to Close management(21st june no response what so ever)

Data Protection Act letter sent to Black Horse(21st june no response so far)

Data Protection Act letter sent to First National(no response either.)

DFS has succumbed to my request for a new suite as the last one was not fit for purpose

All letters sent recorded and signed for.

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It really depends what you want to achieve, and what the situation is with each debt. Personally I would not do anything until I had the result of the DSAR, then it is a case of deciding the best way forward for your circumstances.

 

It usually comes down to the proportion of unlawful charges.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 12 years later...

This topic was closed on 09 March 2019.

If you have a problem which is similar to the issues raised in this topic, then please start a new thread and you will get help and support there.

If you would like to post up some information which is relevant to this particular topic then please flag the issue up to the site team and the thread will be reopened.

- Consumer Action Group

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Please

Start your own new thread

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