Mangove V ARGOS ***WON***

[maangov]

Hi all,

 

Just recieved a computer printout of my statement history, as requested in my SAR. I have totaled £80.50 in charges over 2 years.

 

Will be sending my LBA Tomorrow (if i can work out how to calculate the damn interest!!)

 

Thanks for all the advice given thus far on these forums. Couldn't be doing this without you!

 

Cheers

Mike

[maangov]

All,

 

An update:

 

Sent prelim letter on 5th Jan '07 for a total of £80.50 plus £17.65 interest on those penalties. Total £98.15.

 

Nothing heard to date! Prelim letter below:

 

ARG Card Services Limited

Royal Avenue

Widnes

WA88 1AA

5th January 2007

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxx

Dear Sir/Madam

 

My request

Thank you for supplying my account history with your letter dated 3rd January 2007.

I am writing to ask you to refund to me the charges which you have levied from my account since opening in May 2004.

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my account in relation to direct debit refusals, late payments and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

 

Your responsibilities

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with

UK

law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them.

Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

 

What I require

I calculate that you have taken £80.50 plus £17.65 which you have charged me in interest for the sum which you have taken. Total £98.15.

I enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter

 

My targets to resolve this matter

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

 

After that, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

[maangov]

Evening,

 

Argos's 14 days are up on Friday. I have drafted my LBA below. Can anyone advise if this reads ok please? I have now ammended my claim to include contractual interest at their rate of 25.9% using vamps spreadsheet.

 

Hoping to post Friday Evening

 

19th January 2007

LETTER BEFORE ACTION

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxx

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I am very disappointed that you have failed to respond to my letter dated

5th January 2007

.

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my account in relation to late fees and over limit charges, are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations.

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with

UK

law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

 

I calculate that you have taken £80.50 plus £17.65 which you have charged me in interest for the sums which you have taken. Total £98.15. Additionally, I am revising my claim to include contractual interest of £70.72. I believe this rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity: it is based on your borrowing rate of 25.9%. Therefore the total amount owed on this account, as of today’s date is £168.87. I am enclosing a

revised

copy of the schedule of the charges which I am claiming.

I require repayment in full of this money. If you do not comply fully within 14 days, I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount including interest and my costs, without further notice.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

[maangov]

Well the 14days came and went. In the absense of comments i have now sent the above letter, revising my claim to include contractual, and giving them a final 14days before i start court procedings.

 

Fingers crossed!

 

Regards

mangove

[Reznor]

Good Luck Maangov!

[maangov]

Thanks Reznor,

 

I see you're currently starting a claim against Argos - will keep you updated on how i go

 

Regards

Maangov

[kittenx]

Hi Maangov,

i am almost at the end of a claim against halifax bank and now i want to claim against argos, i presume i preceed in exactly the same way as i did with the bank. any tips? are they easy to get statements from? could you possible point me in the right direction as to where i should send my sar and how much do they charge for this? thanks

[maangov]

Hi Kittenx,

 

I sent my SAR to

 

ARG Card Services Limited

Royal Avenue

Widnes

WA88 1AA

 

I included a £10 cheque as standard. Haven't actually checked if this has been cached! Statements took less than 10 days to be returned.

 

I haven't yet had a reply to my prelim, and i've only just sent an LBA, so i'm afraid i can't offer any advice as yet.

 

Other posts in these forums suggest they should be as straight forward as a bank claim.

 

Will keep you updated. Hope this helps.

Good Luck!

Mike

[tracyd]

Hi

I too am considering going after my cahrges form argos. Do you know if it would make any difference that the account has been paid off in full. (I had to take out a loan to pay it off) also i have a default on my credit report from them. would i be able to fight to get this removed also.

 

sorry so many questions.

 

Good luck.

Lynne

[maangov]

Hi tracyd,

 

It makes no difference if the account is paid off in full, in fact it's probably a benefit! It means that your not at risk of them insisting repayment of the balance, or closing the account (though i don't think they make a habit of this). My account with them is still open, and the balance stands at zero. I will be demanding a cheque for repayment, not account credit.

 

As for the default removal, i am currently in the process of asking for this on my current account. I believe there are several arguments to get these removed, my perspective is in my HSBC thread (see sig). I think the only sure fire way is if the balance at the time of default was wholly or mostly charges, ie a default of £500 being £450 or more charges (example). Do a search for default removal, there's plenty of threads. Be prepared for a fight!

 

Hope this helps

 

Mike

[maangov]

All,

 

Recieved an offer today! Here's the jist:

 

Dear maangov,

Im managing your account you have failed to make payments as they fall etc etc etc... terms and conditions allow us to recover costs incurred by us...... our fees are not unfair, nor a penalty.

we value our relationship blah blah.... we cant offer a full refund....blah blah goodwill offer of

£40

without admission etc etc

Regards

Val Phillips

Customer Service Manager

£40??!! They must or misread my letter! ;-p My charges alone were £80.50! Ok time to draft a reply, they aint getting away this easy!

 

Mike

[kittenx]

at least they seem to have responded quickly which may mean you get this all sorted asap? i shall be posting my sar request tomorrow.

[maangov]

Thats the hope Kittenx!

 

Here's my reply. In the post tomorrow

 

Response to settlement offer.

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxx

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter dated 30th January 2007.

I respectfully decline your offer of settlement. I will accept the sum offered only as part settlement and on the clear understanding that I will pursue recovery of the remainder, with a County Court claim if necessary.

 

As previously communicated,

as of today’s date, I require repayment of

£80.50 plus £17.65 which you have charged me in interest for the sums which you have taken. Total £98.15.

In addition to this amount, I also claim interest at an annual rate of 25.9% as set out in the attached schedule of charges. I believe this rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity: it is based on your borrowing rate of 25.9%. This amount is increasing at a daily rate of £0.13.

Therefore the total amount owed on this account, as of today’s date is

£170.55

.

In my Letter Before Action dated 19th January, which you received on 24th January, I informed you that unless you complied fully within 14 days, I would begin a claim against you for the full amount including interest and my costs, without further notice. You are reminded that there will be no extension to this timescale.

I trust this clarifies my position.

 

Yours faithfully,

[jellybabe]

good luck with your claim, i took argos on last year. I will be taking them on again with my hubbies account.

[maangov]

Thanks Jellybabe,

 

I have now drafted my Particulars of claim. Can anyone offer any comment? Hoping to file tomorrow

 

Particulars of Claim

1. The Claimant had an Argos Credit Card Account xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ("the Account") with the Defendant which was opened on or around xx/xx/xxxx

.

 

2. The Account is governed by the Defendant’s Personal Banking Terms and Conditions (“the contract”)

 

3. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant has debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied.

 

4. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

5. A schedule of the charges is attached to these particulars of claim (Appendix 1).

 

6. The Claimant will further rely on the Office of Fair Trading’s (“the OFT”) statement of 5th April 2006 concerning default charges in credit card contracts, as the OFT’s recommendations regarding standard default terms in credit card contracts have wider implications, as regards bank current Account agreements.

 

7. The Claimant thus contends that:

a) The charges debited to the Account:

i) are punitive in nature;

ii) are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant;

iii) exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract

on the part of the Claimant;

iv) are not intended to represent or relate to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

 

b) Further to 7.a), the charges debited to the Account are penalties rather than liquidated damages. A charge is held to be a penalty if the sum stipulated for is extravagant and unconscionable in amount in comparison to the greatest loss that could conceivably be proved to have followed from the breach. A penalty clause is void in its entirety and unenforceable. The precedent for this was Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79, along with Murray v Leisure Play [2005] EWCA Civ 963. It was held that a contractual party can only recover damages for an actual loss or liquidated losses. It is clear that these charges do not reflect any actual and or real loss

 

c) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law.

 

d) In the alternative to 7.a), b) and c), if the Court finds that the charges are not a penalty, then the Claimant contends that they are unreasonable within the meaning of s.15 Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982

 

 

8. Contractual Interest

a) The Claimant claims compound interest on the amounts claimed under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, using the rate and method specified in the said contract, and as is applied by the Defendant to monies it is owed.

 

b) The Claimant’s grounds for seeking restitution of the compounded contractual rate of interest is that the Defendant would be unjustly enriched if the Claimant's entitlement was limited to the statutory rate of interest in that the Defendant has had use of the sums and would have used these sums to re-lend at commercial compounded rates.

 

c) The Claimant contends that the taking of unlawful penalties from the Claimant’s Account is unauthorised borrowing by the Defendant. Therefore, under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, in the first instance the Claimant has calculated compound interest originally charged by the defendant, being 25.90%.

 

d) In the alternative to 8.c), if the Court decides that the Claimant is not entitled to the contractual rate of interest under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity in the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant, then the Claimant has calculated interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year

 

e) Details of interest calculated & rates used are attached to these Particulars of Claim (Appendix 1) as follows:

Page1 – Compound interest calculated daily at an annual rate of 25.90%

Page 2 – Simple interest under s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at an annual rate

of 8.00%

 

9. Accordingly, the Claimant claims:

a) The return of the amounts debited between 19/06/2004 and 19/12/2005 in respect of charges in the sum of £98.15

 

b) All applicable Court fees

 

c) Contractual interest at an annual 25.90 % compounded daily from the date of each transaction to 9th February 2007 of £73.25, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £0.13

 

d) In the alternative to 9.c), interest under section 69 County Courts Act (1984) at the rate of 8% a year, from the date of each transaction to 9th February 2007, and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £0.02

I believe that the contents of these particulars of claim are true.

 

I shall attatch Appendix A with 2 pages. Page 1 shall be a schedule of 25.9% interest, and page 2 a schedule of 8% interest.

 

Regards

MikeA

[maangov]

Hi all,

 

Today recieved a letter. They can't seem to work out where i got my 72.20 contractual interest from!

 

Thank you for your letter of 2nd February. I am disappointed that you have chosen not to accept the offer contained in my letter.

In your letter you have claimed an amount of £170.35 and state that the calculations for this sum are set out in the schedule of charges. This schedule documents the amount of £98.15 but does not appear to document your calculation for the additional claim of £72.20. Please provide further details of this amount in order for us to consider your claim further.

As explained in my earlier letter it is your responsibility to make the required payments on your account however, since opening your account you have on several occasions failed to make payments as they fall due. We have a right to recover from you the costs incurred by us in dealing with your late payment. Our fees for late payment are clearly set out in our terms and conditions and we do not regard them as either a penalty or being unfair consequently I am not able to offer you a full refund of the fees charged to your account.

We do however value the relationship we have with our customers and we are therefore prepared to keep open our offer of an ex-gratia goodwill payment of £40 for a further seven days. This offer is without any admission of liability and expressly reserving all rights and remedies against you, if you accept it will be in full and final settlement of any and all claims you have against us relating to the default charges. We will be prepared to make this payment to you if you agree to the terms of settlement of your claim against us within 7 days of the date of this letter.

I hope you will reconsider this offer but if we do not receive your written acceptance of the terms of settlement set out in this letter in the period set out above then our offer will be withdrawn.

 

Any comments on this. Shall i just file my N1, and reply to the above?

I'll draft a letter!

 

Regards

 

Mike

[jellybabe]

You sent them your schedule by the looks of it, so it's up to you really what you want to do. If you can wait another week or so to file, then i would send them another letter with the schedule attached, explaining that you already sent this before, but out of goodwill you send it again.

I reckon they're playing their game......so, keep at them!

However, this is only my own opinion.

[maangov]

Good advice jellybabe,

 

I'll draft a reply letter giving the 7 days. Should bring my claim into line with my others, so i can file all bank claims together! N1 form en batch!

 

Unless explaining the contractual is too difficult (im not a good letter writer)! then i may just file anyway. Lemme give it a go!

 

Thanks

Mike

[kittenx]

hey mike,

how are you getting on with your claim?

i have got delayed with starting mine against argos, but am about to send off sar letter, which letter did you send for this? as i have one that i sent for the bank but it relates to a bank account and not store card..

 

claire

[maangov]

Hi Kittenx,

 

About to send this letter:

 

Dear Madam

 

Thank you for your recent letter.

As previously communicated, I respectfully decline your offer of settlement. I will accept the sum offered only as part settlement and on the clear understanding that I will pursue recovery of the remainder, with a County Court claim if necessary.

You state you are unable to account for the amount of £72.20. This sum has been clearly broken down in the schedules included with all my correspondence. It has also been explained in my letters.

You have received letters from me dated 5th January, 20th January and 2nd February.

I informed you that unless you

complied fully, I would begin a claim against you for the full amount including interest and my costs, without further notice. You have failed to meet my requests satisfactorily on all occasions, and my clearly stated timescales have expired. I have therefore commenced proceedings against you.

 

If you wish me to cancel court proceedings, I require repayment of £80.50 plus £17.65 which you have charged me in interest for the sums which you have taken. Total £98.15. In addition to this amount, I also claim interest at an annual rate of 25.9%, calculated daily, as set out in the attached schedule of charges. I believe this rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity: it is based on your borrowing rate of 25.9%. As of today’s date this totals £73.74. I now also require repayment of my court fees, total £30.

Therefore the total amount owed on this account, as of today’s date is

£201.89

.

I trust this clarifies my position.

Any comments?

I sent the standard SAR from the tmplates library. I just changed the wording to relate to a credit card.

Hope this helps

MikeA

[jellybabe]

sounds good to me.

[maangov]

Great thanks,

 

Went in the post today, court forms being filed tomorrow (if they stay open past 4!! grrr.). I decided against giving another 7 days. If They didn't settle the £98.15 which they can't fail to understand, i can't see them backing down and settling in full.

 

Stick to my timescales and show them i mean it!

 

MikeA

[Reznor]

Hello Mike,

 

Have you heard anything back yet?

[maangov]

Hi Reznor,

 

Nothing heard from my latest letter. Court forms are going in tomorrow, as with only a 9-4 opening, it's been hard to get down there!

 

Will keep updated.

 

MikeA

[maangov]

Quick update,

 

Court forms went in on Thursday. I have had no replies from them nor the court yet.

 

I have had a statement however, and i notice a credit of £25 has been made. Customer services tell me this is a refund related to reclaiming fees! So, i have turned down two offers of £40, and they go and credit £25 onto my card!!!!!

 

Where did they get that figure from and why have they not told me (it was done 14 days ago!)!! Now i'm going to have to write a letter telling them to remove it from my card, as any payments will need to be in cheque form.

 

Any suggestions on wording?

 

Maangov