Orange & Moorcroft

[Saint2K]

Hey All.

 

Is it possible to claim unfair charges back from a mobile phone operator? In this case orange.

 

Long story short, I failed to keep up repayments due to my financial situation on my Orange phone bill over 12 months ago.

 

I am currently on a self managed DMP and I have been paying Moorcroft Debt Recovery ever since Orange handed over the account to them.

 

My current balance is £720. It has just struck me now how high that is. I was only on a £25 a month tarrif.

 

So as I have asked on here, can I reclaim any charges against Orange? If so, is the procedure the same as that for bank charges?

 

Would I also have to notify Moorcroft that I am claiming back unfair charges from Orange, and therefore the account would have to be put on hold?

 

Thanks

[livelylad]

Hey All.

 

Is it possible to claim unfair charges back from a mobile phone operator? In this case orange.

 

Long story short, I failed to keep up repayments due to my financial situation on my Orange phone bill over 12 months ago.

 

I am currently on a self managed DMP and I have been paying Moorcroft Debt Recovery ever since Orange handed over the account to them.

 

My current balance is £720. It has just struck me now how high that is. I was only on a £25 a month tarrif.

 

So as I have asked on here, can I reclaim any charges against Orange? If so, is the procedure the same as that for bank charges?

 

Would I also have to notify Moorcroft that I am claiming back unfair charges from Orange, and therefore the account would have to be put on hold?

 

Thanks

 

Hi how much are the charges individually?

[Saint2K]

I dont yet know as I have not sent a letter asking for a breakdown of charges.

 

Before I do this, I wanted to know if I was able to claim them back like bank charges i.e. are they illegal?

[Saint2K]

Hello.

 

I am currently in the process of reclaiming penalty charges back from my creditors.

 

However, as I am new to this I decided to start with Orange/Moorcroft Debt Recovery.

 

I was originally going to send Orange a DPA/SAR request to find out what I had been charged and take it from there.

 

However after speaking to a few people, I realise that claiming charges back from the operator 'Orange' maybe difficult as their is a lot of genuine cost involved in disconnecting lines and providing a service etc. This for the time being I am willing to accept.

 

Now Moorcroft are currently dealing with this debt which is about £720. Now I am unsure if Moorcroft have purchased this debt or they are simply representing Orange. I do know that they must have whacked a fair load of charges on the account as the balance has increased massively since I lasy checked.

 

So, would it be best to send a DPA/SAR to find out what information they hold on me including charges they have applied and also a CCA request to confirm that they have bought the debt and so forth?

 

What concerns me after reading other stories on other related forums is that if I do the CCA request, then they will pass the debt back to Orange and they will just apply straight for a CCJ. I have heard Littlewoods Catalogue Cards are guilty of doing this. Which then leaves you have to fight off the CCJ.

 

Has anyone sucessfully reclaimed charges from Moorcroft? Would it be wise todo what I have suggested above?

 

Also, if they refund charges, how do they do this? Back onto the account or by cheque? ... I am just worried due to me not having much money that if I have to launch a MoneyClaim then I will have to pay £50+ pounds which if I am sucessful will be refunded back to the account.

 

Actually, I have just thought, if you launch a MoneyClaim then if you win, they have to pay you by cheque?

[elsinore]

Hello sgx.

 

You need as much information as you can glean about

1) the true debt

2) any charges imposed by Orange and

3) any charges added by Moorcroft.

 

So I think you should send the SAR to Orange and the SAR/CCA to Moorcroft. Your requests should state that, as the account balance is in dispute, they should suspend any further action until the dispute is resolved. This should preclude Orange from trying to obtain a CCJ (even if they did you would then have grounds to have the CCJ set aside).

 

As to whether you can reclaim monies paid to Moorcroft, well that will depend on the figures. If you still owe genuine debt and accept that you must pay it, then you don’t have a case for requesting a refund from Moorcroft. On the other hand, if you can prove that you have overpaid Moorcroft, you may have to issue a claim against them to get it! DCAs do not willingly give money back!

 

However, your financial situation may mean that you are exempt from paying the court fees. See this link http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/fees/exemption/index.htm

 

Keep posting on your progress.

 

Elsinore

[Saint2K]

Hello.

 

Can you reclaim unlawful charges from Mobile Phone Operators within the UK?

 

i.e. £500 disconnection fees etc.

 

Thanks

[JonCris]

They can only claim such penalty charges as to meet their liquidated losses & £500 seems a bit steep. So unless I'm wrong about the cost of disconnection................yes you can reclaim.

 

You can certainly write & ask them to justify their charge & it's no good them just claiming it's in the T's&C's The banks have been claiming that for ages & look where it got them

[Saint2K]

That's exactly what I thought.

 

I think I will send them a SAR and confirm what charges I have incurred and then perhaps take it further.

 

Thank you for your input.

[JonCris]

1st write asking them to justify their charges then after a delay of about 10 days send your SAR. You never know what contradictary infomation you might receive which may help demolish their arguments

[blacksheep1979]

When you say disconection charges do you mean along the lines of you wanted to leave your contract yet had x months left to run? If so they normal charge you months left x monthly line rental and they are allowed to do this

[JonCris]

No they are not.

 

They are not allowed to impose a penalty no matter how long the contract has to run.

 

Like the banks they are only allowed to recover their liquidated losses which they must prove.

 

Anything else is unlawful

[StudentInDebt]

If the contract included a free phone would that constitute something that the phone company could include in an early termination charge?

[JonCris]

Not unless they include the right of return in their contract T's & C's otherwise a free phone is just that a 'free phone'

[Saint2K]

Well I think I shall send Orange an SAR/DPA request. See what exactly I have been charged and then go about claiming it back.

 

Has anyone on here tried reclaiming charges from any of the mobile operators?

 

If so, any advice, did you succeed?

[Saint2K]

Hello All.

 

Happy New Year

 

I am currently in the process of reclaiming bank charges from my various creditors over the years.

 

One of which was Orange, who after defaulting with them, passed on my debt to Moocroft. At this stage I am not 100% sure if Moorcroft are now the legal owners of the debt, but the old letters from Orange and my Credit File would seem to indicate that Moorcroft now do own the debt.

 

I want to reclaim whatever charges were levied against me in my final days with Orange. I realistically should only have owed them around £150, yet my current debt with Moorcroft stands at £750.

 

I believe I have been charged a disconnection fee (a very large one) by Orange and it would seem that Moorcroft keep charging me for something even though I am on a self managed DMP and I am repaying them at an agreed pro-rata rate each month.

 

So, what I want to do is reclaim any disproportionate charges levied against me by Orange, which I believe willo be the disconnection fee and I want to also reclaim whatever random charges Moorcroft have indeed been applying to my account.

 

Now, what would the cheapest way to go about this be?

 

I obviously need to send a SAR/DPA request to Orange to find out what charges where incurred and when etc.

 

I also need to find out what charges I have incurred from Moorcroft. Now I realistically do not want to send two £10 DPA cheques to both Orange and Moorcroft.

 

Can I simply write Moorcroft a letter asking for a balance and a copy of all charges and payments made to my account with them without having to put it as a DPA request?

 

Should I also send a CCA request? Actually, I probably should.

 

Has anyone on these boards successfully reclaimed charges from either a mobile operator like Orange or from a DCA such as Moorcroft?

 

I would be glad for some step by step help with this.

[me_n_my_kids]

Hi there, i am only starting out with my plan against these people, one of them being moorcroft.

 

first i sent cca requests to everyone we are paying. IF they come up with the correct docs, i then send an SAR. in your position i think i would send SAR to both orange and moorcroft. moorcroft should not be adding any charges at all.

 

still, wait and see what someone else says, as i said ive not long been on this site and still finding my feet. i wish you success though:)

[lookinforinfo]

The agreement you had with Orange does not come under the Consumer

Credit Act, so the only way to get the details you need is to send them

both an sar. You don't have to do them at the same time, and if you have

to sue them to get your money, you can always claim the cost of the sar

as an additional cost.

If you read some ot the threads relating to Orange and Moorcroft, you will find those who have been successful. at the same time you will earn how they operate and what to expect as you chase them up.

 

If you haven't read the FAQS on the first page of the forum, take your time

and read through it and the step by step guide. I appreciate that they

were designed more for reclaiming bank charges, but the principles are the

same.

[RedDeath]

This would be interesting to follow. I am thinking of claiming back penalty charges. Any kind souls going/have been through the process?

[buzby]

Sorry, I've never read so much speculation in a CAG thread, and none of it based on fact. There are no 'penalty' charges when you attempt to bail out of a contract without keeping your site of the bargain. If you don;t want to be liable, you buy the phone outright as a Pay As You Go customer, the cost of the phone is the finaly price and you cannot be made to pay any more (unless there is a mandatory initial top-up advised).

 

Your contract length determines the p[rice you pay phone the phone, a free phone is not a 'free' phone, the price of the phone is dynamic and depends on the contract duration and the airtime package agreed to. Once supplied, its value is zero, hence there is no opportunity to return for a refund - but then if it was supplied on consideration of completing the contract, then the subscriber had better keep to the agreeemnt or suffer the consequenses of not completing the arrangement.

 

It is not in the least unusual that those wanting to terminate early are asked to pay their monthly rate X months left, It's a bad way to go as you miss out on all the inclusive minutes and deals that would be ongoing until the contract completion, but for some they just can't afford it - so have to make do with their credit file trashed as a result.

 

Paying off your contract is NOT a penalty, it is the customer keeping their side of the agreement. They may be subsequent penalties for non payment if the contract ends abruptly, but the phone has to be paid for one way or another. Why do people accespt there's no such thing as a free lunch, but think phones are somehow different?

 

As to the OP - I'm assuming the £500 you refer to is because you took out a contract and terminated early? The fee will probably cover the months left to run, so you probably cancelled very early on in the deal. As the phone probably cost around £450, I don't see this as being unreasonable. Would you like to expand on why you see it as a 'penalty'?

[JonCris]

buzby Sorry but your wrong if the phone is supplied 'free of charge' then it is a free phone.

 

If there are conditions attached to the supply of the phone then it ain't free. If there is a requirement for the phone to be returned upon cancellation of the contract then they can only ask for it's return in good condition fair wear & tear accepted. Any telecoms contract can be cancelled at any time without penalty otherwise it's a breach of the UCCT Ask the OFT

[stan5131]

Buzby. I have read many of your posts and your tone almost suggests a "what did you expect" reply!

 

Im not in any way attracting an argument but am often puzzled as to which side of the fence you sit. I have sometimes read posts where the op hasnt a 'legal leg to stand on' but have kept the spirit of my reply in keeping with the nature of this site.

 

Just wondering if you could elaborate on your expertise and inner thoughts? JonCris makes no secret of the fact that he is a lawyer and therefore I have always trusted his knowledge of the law.

[buzby]

buzby Sorry but your wrong if the phone is supplied 'free of charge' then it is a free phone.

 

If there are conditions attached to the supply of the phone then it ain't free. If there is a requirement for the phone to be returned upon cancellation of the contract then they can only ask for it's return in good condition fair wear & tear accepted. Any telecoms contract can be cancelled at any time without penalty otherwise it's a breach of the UCCT Ask the OFT

 

I really think you should get out more! The only thing correct in your posting was the date, and I really think you should stop giving CAG members false hope when there clearly is none.

 

A 'free' phone only means that the cost of it is factored in a different way, even the Advertising Standards Authority support dealers promoting products in this way. The phone WILL be free to the consumer, but ONLY if they fully comply with the contract terms under which the 'free' phone was supplied. Correct me if I'm wrong, but following your logic, if the recipient of a free phone lost it, they could simply ask for a replacement (again at no cost) and carry on with their contract? Not so, the cost of this phone to replace would be £500 or so, based on the true retail price and the fact there is no contract discount available the full price is payable.

 

As for your suggestion that a network would require a phone returned, what nonsense! A returned phone unless it it boxed and still new, has NO residual value and will have no bearing on the contract the consumer signed.

 

As for your assertion saying that any telecoms contract can be cancelled at any time without penalty, shows you do not even read the topics in this forum where this has happened. Please, until you have first-hand experience of what you are talking about, take out your own mobile contract and walk away, then see what happens to your credit record, and your 'understanding' of how the industry works.

[buzby]

Buzby. I have read many of your posts and your tone almost suggests a "what did you expect" reply!

 

Im not in any way attracting an argument but am often puzzled as to which side of the fence you sit. I have sometimes read posts where the op hasnt a 'legal leg to stand on' but have kept the spirit of my reply in keeping with the nature of this site. JonCris makes no secret of the fact that he is a lawyer and therefore I have always trusted his knowledge of the law.

 

Those requesting help on this site pose their questions and require a fair and honest response. There is no latitude to provide wooly supportive noises if, when there is absolutely no hope of achieving a resolution beneficial to the consumer, there is no prospect of finding a get-out. I think it grossly unfair to keep up unrealistic false hopes, is this really your suggestion? The spirit of this site is alive and well, but nobody is going to mislead by saying 'x' will never happen when there is a contract that the consumer has agreed to, and for circumstances beyonf their control they want to get out of it, they then claim shock and horror when someone points out that it might have been better if they hadn't signed the agreement in the first place. Networks are not swayed by sob-stories, court action and the trashing of credit records prove this.

 

However, there are occasions when the networks get it wrong and treat the consumer with contempt and it is those cases when it is possible to restore the balance and play them at their own game, but winning for the small guy. There are plenty of examples here where those that CAN justly claim their network has failed them, and we can advise accordingly.

 

If JonCris wishes to disclose his profession, that is his business, however having read his earlier response that a 'free phone' must be free or it is an 'unfair contract', exhibits a naivete that does not reflect how the mobile industry has worked for the last 22 years, and you can be sure that consumer contractural commitments are legally binding.

[JonCris]

I shall respond to your objectionable post

 

To begin with I do have 1st hand experience of what I'm talking about 2nd as I have said if the phone comes with conditions (any conditions) then it ain't free no matter what is claimed by you or the supplier

 

As for the ASA forget it they are no authority in the matter of law whatsoever.

 

As for having to replace a 'lost' free phone with another free phone. No that's your logic not mine

 

Back to original OP & my original advice.

Their fee (which they must justify if asked) appears nothing more than a penalty charge & they ARE unlawful............unless they can prove them to be their true liquidated losses.

 

Also charging for the full or further term of the contract after cancellation is seen as unlawful..hence the current successes in reclaiming redemption fees

[buzby]

I shall respond to your objectionable post

 

Objectionable, just because I don't agree with your point of view and point this out?

 

To begin with I do have 1st hand experience of what I'm talking about 2nd as I have said if the phone comes with conditions (any conditions) then it ain't free no matter what is claimed by you or the supplier.

 

Want to try that again, but in a version we can all understand? I'm not claiming the phone is free, I suggest you ask a retailer to supply you with your free phone. It is subject to contract and a credit check, and if you don't like it I suggest you take it up with anyone who thinks you a making a valid point.

 

As for the ASA forget it they are no authority in the matter of law whatsoever.

 

The ASA are the final arbiter on whether an advertisement is truthful, misleading or inaccurate. They have held that a phone being advertised as 'free' can be, providing suiable prominence is given to any conditions. Looking at the latest Orange (January) sales catalogue, 36 handsets are marked as 'FREE' with the qualifier that this applies 'on talkplans of £25+'. They comply fully with all guidelines and if you feel they are in error, along with the other 5 UK networks, I suggest you try your logic out on them, and see how far that, or the courts get you.

 

As for having to replace a 'lost' free phone with another free phone. No that's your logic not mine

 

I was attempting to discover if you were attempting to state that as the phone was 'free' it had no value. Does it?

 

Back to original OP & my original advice.

Their fee (which they must justify if asked) appears nothing more than a penalty charge & they ARE unlawful............unless they can prove them to be their true liquidated losses.

 

Which fee is this then? Are you talking about the amount due in monthly airtime that customer was not planning to pay? These are fully covered by contract and are not liquidated lossses, but a consumer's commitment to complete for the period originally agreed. A contract is a commitment agreed to by both parties, if either do not perform, then the defaulter has to pay the price. This is not a CCA regulated environment, so if you wish to continue in providing false hopes, at least provide some evidence of any consumers who had walked away from a contract without a stain on their credit record, free phone or otherwise.

 

Also charging for the full or further term of the contract after cancellation is seen as unlawful..hence the current successes in reclaiming redemption fees

 

I have absolutley no idea what this refers to. Clearly after contract cancellation there is no liability, but if you are suggesting that someone who does not complete the terms if their contract is somehow not liable for those moths they do not require mobile service, can you explain your reasoning how a contract can be repudiated by one party and not be liable?