Need Some Advice Please.

[RCR50]

I would be most grateful if anybody could advise me or answer my questions please....I am slightly naive about reclaiming charges and what exactly I am entitled to so would be very grateful for any input please.

 

I am going to send a letter (downloaded from BBC site - the money programme) to LLoyds TSB asking for settlement in 14 days otherwise I shall proceed legally.....I have spent days gathering invoices and working out figures.....I am going to calculate interest at 24% - just below the contractual rate because I figure this is easy to calculate by just tripling the basic court rate of 8% (my bank have had a nice bundle out of me over the past 6 years whilst I was struggling!). I am reclaiming penalty charges on two accounts with Lloyds TSB. I ran a very small business which I folded 3 years ago and accumulated quite a few penalty charges in the 3 years previous to this.......I am also re-claiming penalty charges on my current a/c with them which total £1,670 - this a/c seems fairly straightforward however I have many questions about the business a/c. I have calculated penalty charges of £1,000. I was also charged £1,164 in `service charges` (despite having been charged a monthly standard flat business fee of £10 to handle my a/c). I was also charged £772 in interest. I also notice that I was charged a whopping £100 in `arrangement fees` for upping my overdraft facility at one stage and £75 another time.

MY QUESTIONS TO YOU PLEASE.

(1). As I was only charged £10 in penalty charges on my business a/c each time I went over my authorised O.D. limit - would these still be classed as disproportionate and therefore unlawful charges - basically, as they are much smaller than the £60 I was charged on my current a/c can I still reclaim them.???

(2). Can I reclaim the extortionate £175 in`arrangement fees`to increase my O.D. limit twice.???

(3). Am I right in thinking that I cannot reclaim any of the £1,164 in `service charges` or interest charged.???

(4). Is going straight in with a reclaim of interest at 24% feasible? - A part of me feels they may as well hold on and wait until a court case which would lower this to 8%.....Or am I just being extremely thick and naive - sorry - is 24% feasible.???

(5). As I have a claim on two different accounts with the same bank - should I send just one letter about both accounts with a total from both accounts with interest as my grand total reclaim? or should I send two separate letters with separate claims???

 

Apologies for long post - I would be most grateful if anybody could offer me any advice, give me any pointers or answer any of my questions please.

 

Very many thanks - I wish you all lots of success in your claims and hope that you all have returned what is rightfully yours (and some!).

 

R

[RedDeath]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Wow, loads of questions, I'll start by answering what I can and hopefully a mod will be over to check it over. I also checked the BBC website for starters and then found this forum. My first advice is don't rush into it just yet read up a little bit more, the FAQ is a good source of information. So here goes.

 

Have you got all of the statements? If not its down the Data Protection Road to get a copy of them all.

 

(1) Yes its a charge so you can go for it. They could argue thats its not too steep, but as all cases so far don't seem to go to court you might as well add them in.

(2) Don't believe you can claim for service arrangement. You could argue that it was their charges that have made you get the loan and in turn the arrangement fee but for this to happen you need to claim damages. Quite hard to prove. There was one claim against RBS for damages, that won around 4k. If I find the link I will post it here for you.

(3) 'Service Charges' no I don't believe you can claim for these.

(4) 24% interest. Ha, I am thinking about that road but very difficult to prove. Here is an interesting thread to read http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/49379-photoman-lloyds-business.html You can argue the case that you should get interest paid back at you at the same rate as an unauthorised overdraft rate (24%ish) but that would greatly inflate the claim and it may end up in court, and you may be liable for court costs as well. I dont believe this has gone to court yet, patiently awaiting the great photoman's work.

8% is more reasonable, but you would have to claim that once your claim has gone to the court stage and not before!

(5) I have/had 3 accounts. Advice I have had is that its best to put all 3 in the one claim.

(6) YES they could easily close your account. They have done so in the past. I am having a few issues with them at the moment....

 

Most of all i get the feeling that you don't seem to be ready just yet to fire out letters to the banks (this site's template letters are much better than the BBC's one I think).

 

Spend a bit of time reading through the FAQ (really valuable ammunition). I am expecting around a 8-12 weeks timescale to get my charges back. So an extra week to read up won't hurt.

 

Take it easy, hope it helps!

[Rooster-UK]

Hi RCR50.

 

Is this a wind-up or what?

 

I am going to send a letter (downloaded from BBC site - the money programme)

 

This is the CONSUMER ACTION GROUP. We have no connection with the BBC nor any interest in their letters and methods.

We have well-tried and tested procedures for reclaiming penalty charges. All our letter templates are designed to be used with our procedures.

 

If you are using the BBC's letters and methods there is no point in asking on this site for help with them, because we know nothing about them. So, if you are using someone elses methods you'd best ask them if you need help.

 

However......

If you want help then forget all about BBC letters etc. We have our own that work.

Start by spending a few days reading the FAQs and the step by step guide. That will answer most of your initial questions. Every single fragment of information that you need to win your claim is on this site....most of it in the library sections.

This is a self-help forum so you'll only get out what your prepared to put in.

Take as much time as you need in reading. there are shed-loads of info here it can seem a bit daunting at first. But it is time well spent.

 

Good luck with your claim.

 

Regards, Rooster.

[RedDeath]

Thats a bit harsh Rooster!

[Rooster-UK]

Hi reddeath.

If it knocks the wind out of his sails and makes him sit down and think for a few minutes, he will see the wisdom in what I am saying.

I want to see him win his claim and get back his charges. Our success rate is 100%. What success rate does the BBC site have. Can/does the BBC site answer questions and give the advice that we do.

We don't want to see anyone lose their claim, but unless they adhere to our methods, we can't help.

I think that my post has upset you, more than it has upset RCR50, because he knows now where the genuine help is and that we are behind him.

 

How about it, RCR50, are you an easy success or are you going to struggle with your claim.

 

Regards, Rooster. :D

[RCR50]

Dear Red Death

 

Many thanks for your reply to my post and for your help - much appreciated. Rooster, I am a `she` - I did not even `know` about reclaiming bank charges until I watched the money programme and then visited their website - I then copied their letter - only today did I find this site.....I shall of course have a good look and use the letter and info from here.....One thing that I do not quite understand is the not claiming interest 8% until/unless it goes to court - of course I do need to look at this site properly to answer my questions - however I don`t mind admitting that I am a `girlie`and all this stuff `escapes me` so to speak....does this mean that we do not claim any interest in our letter to the bank?....You say that 24% is probably going to be difficult - is it worth claiming 16%??

Red Death - thank you very much for your help - I shall look at your link straight after this - your message has put my mind straight about most things....I didn`t think that I actually could reclaim service charges or arrangement fees but just needed to know for sure.....I shall, as you say, take my time - Thanks.

Very good luck with your claim.

Best wishes R

[elsinore]

There is one thing I would comment on RCR, because the answer isn't always apparent, even after reading the FAQs and threads.

 

You can amalgamate claims for your personal accounts, although I personally think it's better to keep them separate. But do keep your business account separate, because your particulars of claim will differ from those of the personal accounts.

 

Other than that, both Rooster and RedDeath have given you good advice, it's up to you to make the most of it.

 

Good luck with your claims

 

Elsinore

[Rooster-UK]

Hi RCR50.

 

I am a `she

Of course you are, just a trick of the light.

 

You can claim back that part of the debit interest that was brought about by the penalty charges. You need to download a spreadsheet template to calculate that.

 

The 8% interest allowed under S.69 is only applied at the MCOL or N.1 stage.

 

Regards, Rooster.

[RedDeath]

No harm Rooster. Yeah, education is the key to a well processed claim. The more you read and understand about it the less hassle you should encounter. Didn't really see this site as a forum vs BBC I saw it as a site to learn and talk about issues with other people in the same boat as myself and eventually, through proper education, get back at those nasty banks. Anyway, now that I got that off my chest, back to business.

 

RCR - I answered your pm and am happy to continue but keep posting here as well as you can get different people's perspective and advice.

[photoman]

RCR50.

They can appear to be a grumpy old bunch when your a newbie, but you do soon realise it's for your own good !!

They're quite right about the "other" sites claiming to offer you a quick fix, all singing, all dancin, one downloaded letter suits all solution......only for you to soon realise that it's inadequate, outdated, and your left with no real advice, and just a half baked claim filed away in a shoe box as a harsh lesson.

You do need to also understand what your letting yourself in for here, it's not two quick trips to the post office, and Thomas Cook on the way home, as some would lead you to believe.

The Banks are undeniably in the wrong, but with so many actions now in the pipeline, they are trying to pick holes in every attack, and find new ways to unsettle, delay, daunt and confuse.

This is an "organic" site, in which members are equally as vigilant and aware of all new angles and tactics, and report, respond and modify approaches. You don't get that on the others.................it's also more addictive than Nicotine and more interesting than any TV series !!

[GaryH]

They're quite right about the "other" sites claiming to offer you a quick fix, all singing, all dancin, one downloaded letter suits all solution......only for you to soon realise that it's inadequate, outdated, and your left with no real advice, and just a half baked claim filed away in a shoe box as a harsh lesson.

 

Totally agree. Thats a big bugbear of mine - the amount of sites that have cropped up almost overnight offering a couple of templates and not a lot else. Usually the MCOL templates are wholly inadequate and thats when things start to go wrong. What happens when the bank defend? What if the claim is stayed? Whats an allocation questionnaire? Need to submit documents?!:o Agghhhhhhhh, etc, etc.....

 

Those are all questions that can't be answered by most of these sites, whereas - so long as your prepared to do your research - we can guide you through it with reletive ease. Don't get me wrong, there are a few other good ones out there - but lots of bad ones too.

[nevos]

GaryH: Well said! This site gives you an absolute blow by blow up to the minute information. RCR50: You must read and read until your blue in the face but, good luck!

[RedDeath]

Ha ha, so this is now an "Organic" site!!! Makes me feel all healthy now!!!

[lucid]

Hi RCR50 and welcome to the forum!

 

I've just got one suggestion which in my opinion is very important.

 

.....I am going to calculate interest at 24% - just below the contractual rate because I figure this is easy to calculate by just tripling the basic court rate of 8% (my bank have had a nice bundle out of me over the past 6 years whilst I was struggling!).

 

If you are claiming for contractual interest it is on the grounds that it is present in the contract. Lloyds charge you 29.85% for unauthorised borrowing and 18.2% for unauthorised borrowing. Also banks compound the interest. What you have suggested is applying your own rate of interest (3 x 8%) and making 24%. If you do this you will be creating your own type of interest that isn't contractual and is calculated in a non contractual way. In my opinion this is the incorrect way to go about things.

 

Now I'm probably going to be shot down by some other members who totally disagree with what I'm saying but the whole basis for claiming contractual is a principle of mutuality and reciprocity. So in my opinion why on earth should the banks be let off with a lower amount of interest that isn't calculated in the same way as their contractual interest. You suggest that you thought using 24% (simple) interest would be easier to calculate but there are spreadhseets that will calculate it for you. I'd think carefully about creating your own form of interest. I have pointed this out before and was argued against that the banks are hardly going to mind paying a lower amount of interest - which is probably right. But if you did go to court then there is nowhere in A Small Claims Guide that advises you to create your own interest, whereas it does mention statutory interest and contractual interest. And I don't think using your own rates and even calling simple interest at a higher rate contractual is advisable when you are potentially going to have to justify your reasons for doing so in court.

 

This of course is entirely my own opinion on the matter, but I feel it's certainly something for you to consider before you make a start on your claim. Anyway I won't bore you anymore with my theories as I'm sure you have a lot of reading to get through.

 

Good luck with your claim. Lucid

[photoman]

Lucid, Spot on post !!

I've just sent RD a PM in response to one she sent me..........with pretty much exactly the same comments you've made !!

I don't mind her sharing it with you for comparison if you ask her, or she just forwrds to you.

[Mindzai]

Hi RCR50 and welcome to the forum!

 

I've just got one suggestion which in my opinion is very important.

 

 

 

If you are claiming for contractual interest it is on the grounds that it is present in the contract. Lloyds charge you 29.85% for unauthorised borrowing and 18.2% for unauthorised borrowing. Also banks compound the interest. What you have suggested is applying your own rate of interest (3 x 8%) and making 24%. If you do this you will be creating your own type of interest that isn't contractual and is calculated in a non contractual way. In my opinion this is the incorrect way to go about things.

 

Now I'm probably going to be shot down by some other members who totally disagree with what I'm saying but the whole basis for claiming contractual is a principle of mutuality and reciprocity. So in my opinion why on earth should the banks be let off with a lower amount of interest that isn't calculated in the same way as their contractual interest. You suggest that you thought using 24% (simple) interest would be easier to calculate but there are spreadhseets that will calculate it for you. I'd think carefully about creating your own form of interest. I have pointed this out before and was argued against that the banks are hardly going to mind paying a lower amount of interest - which is probably right. But if you did go to court then there is nowhere in A Small Claims Guide that advises you to create your own interest, whereas it does mention statutory interest and contractual interest. And I don't think using your own rates and even calling simple interest at a higher rate contractual is advisable when you are potentially going to have to justify your reasons for doing so in court.

 

This of course is entirely my own opinion on the matter, but I feel it's certainly something for you to consider before you make a start on your claim. Anyway I won't bore you anymore with my theories as I'm sure you have a lot of reading to get through.

 

Good luck with your claim. Lucid

 

This is 100% correct. You cannot just inven your own interest rate. It has to be in the contract. For Lloyds, this means 29.85% compounded. 'Compounded' is particularly important to note - the way compounded interest works means you cannot just multiply statutory interest which is simple (ie, not compounded). If you grab the spreadsheet in my sig this will work out everything for you so dont be put off by the maths, but beware of making up various rates.

 

I've seen people on this forum argue that a bank is not likely to argue against a lower rate but that is no the point. You have absolutely no basis for claiming a rate other than one that is specified in the contract.

 

24% interest. Ha, I am thinking about that road but very difficult to prove. Here is an interesting thread to read http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....-business.html You can argue the case that you should get interest paid back at you at the same rate as an unauthorised overdraft rate (24%ish) but that would greatly inflate the claim and it may end up in court, and you may be liable for court costs as well.

 

There is no more likelyhood of a case ending up in court because someone is claiming a larger amount. Contractual interest may greatly inflate the claim, but the bank will be in no hurry to defend this in court. If anything is more likely to cause a case to end up in court it's making up your own interest rate as the banks could very easily defend this.

[RCR50]

THANKS GUYS!!!!!!!

 

I am really grateful for your advice here!!! YOU ARE FAB!!

 

Now I just need to figure out how to sort these spreadsheets out..?????

 

All the best!

 

It is so nice to know that you are all here to lend a hand.

[RedDeath]

One question about compound interest if possible. Lucid quotes a rate of 29.85% for unauthorised overdrafts. But...was that the interest rate say as of the 1st of March 2003? What was it a year later?

I believe that for a valid argument in favour of compound interest it would have to be to calculated on a like for like basis. I.e. in march 2003 they charged 23.4% a year later 25% and so on. I am off to the bank tomorrow to find out what those charges are. I'll post them if anyone needs them.

 

Edit: Lucid, I have given your claim a long scan. Wow, I take it you won! Or are just about to win. It gives me a lot of hope. Ok, here goes the 29.85%. On one account I have about 4k of charges, including compound interest this bumps it up to 9k. I have 2 accounts that I am waiting for statements and that should bump the charges to around 6k totalling about 12k with compound interest. I think I am in for one hell of a battle!!!

[RCR50]

Red death

 

Hi, I would love to know what you find out please - please do post.

 

Many thanks - Good luck

[Mindzai]

One question about compound interest if possible. Lucid quotes a rate of 29.85% for unauthorised overdrafts. But...was that the interest rate say as of the 1st of March 2003? What was it a year later?

I believe that for a valid argument in favour of compound interest it would have to be to calculated on a like for like basis. I.e. in march 2003 they charged 23.4% a year later 25% and so on. I am off to the bank tomorrow to find out what those charges are. I'll post them if anyone needs them.

 

This isnt necesary. The Court don't retrospectively use the various statutory rates of interest for each claim, the whole lot is calculated based on the current rate. The bank may well argue that you need to apply each rate, however by that time they have already lost and would simply have to provide their own figures. Even then I'm not sure a judge agree with them.

 

Dont forget you can always split your claim into smaller chunks to keep it under the £5k limit and avoid getting into a situation where you may be liable for costs.

[lucid]

Lucid, I have given your claim a long scan. Wow, I take it you won! Or are just about to win. It gives me a lot of hope. Ok, here goes the 29.85%. On one account I have about 4k of charges, including compound interest this bumps it up to 9k. I have 2 accounts that I am waiting for statements and that should bump the charges to around 6k totalling about 12k with compound interest. I think I am in for one hell of a battle!!!

 

Hi RedDeath,

 

Our claims are still going - the hearing date is set for 7th February on all of our claims. So far we have had an offer through for our joint account and Mindzai's sole account. I'm expecting an offer for my sole account soon. Each of the offers haven't been for enough money so they have been swiftly rejected.

 

I noiticed that earlier on in the thread you suggest that you are expecting your claim to take 8-12 weeks to complete. You might want to consider that we started all of our claims with the prelim on the 9th August, so from then until 7th February is about 26 weeks! I just thought I'd mention the amount of time it can potentially take - just in case you've begun making plans for your money.

 

Lucid

[GaryH]

Dont forget you can always split your claim into smaller chunks to keep it under the £5k limit and avoid getting into a situation where you may be liable for costs.

 

You need to keep to 1 claim for each contract. Splitting 1 account down into seperate claims is an abuse of the small claims proceedure, which could even be labelled vexatious.

[RedDeath]

Hi Lucid & Mindzai,

Yes I misread your post. Once I saw the rejection letter I assumed that they would then followed protocol and offer you the full amount...well, i hope that is what will happen now.

Foruntately/Unfortunately one of my accounts has 4k in charges, and with the interest added on top of that it will bring it past the 5k mark so at this point I might as well combine both claims and go for the full figure.

The case against RBS (forgot the thread name) made a very valid point, it is a shame that he/she did not ask for compounded contractual interest as it seems to me that they would have won if they had included it.

As for the timescales 8-12 weeks may not be enough, though I would luvvve to spend that doe, but i have to stick to my guns.

I am thinking that I will be pushing mutuality on the agreement and if I could make the point that I am charging them based on their own interst rates as inforce at that time, then I may stand a better view in court as I would really be pushing for mutuality. Failing that I will be asking for the standard 8%.

It seems to me that your case is quite unique, as you have had to deal with debt at the same time so while on one hand you are pushing for charges, they seem to be stalling (lloyds, stall??) behind the debt, so as i am not in debt at the moment then it might push things a little further.

Suppose we are all in need of one landmark case that will open the doors to the rest of us. Could that be you?

Anyway, I will be reading your post and rooting for you. RCR, sorry, seems that i have hijacked your thread!!!

[Mindzai]

You need to keep to 1 claim for each contract. Splitting 1 account down into seperate claims is an abuse of the small claims proceedure, which could even be labelled vexatious.

 

There is absolutely no reason not to claim for a specific period and then later claim for a different period. Splitting claims and persuing them concurrently might be frowned upon, but there is no reason at all not to persue them consecutively.

[RedDeath]

There is absolutely no reason not to claim for a specific period and then later claim for a different period. Splitting claims and persuing them concurrently might be frowned upon, but there is no reason at all not to persue them consecutively.

 

Well, if you are then claiming for compund contractual interest then it will make a difference, as claims in year -6 will then form part of the "fund" in year -3 and in turn affect the interest rates.