Mike vs Natwest

[Mike1106]

Will certainly do so, will post letter once it is drafted. Thanks for the support.

[The cobbett slayer]

Hi Mike

 

This is the CPR Part 18 request that I used. You will need to modify it to fit your own circumstances but it gets to the basic issue - disclosure of actual costs. They haven't responded to it and I have a hearing next week for an order that they respond, as well as an application to strike out the defence.

 

 

IN THE XXXXXXX COUNTY COURT CLAIM NO XXXX

BETWEEN:

Claimant

And

NATWEST BANK PLC Defendant

REQUEST FOR FURTHER INFORMATION AND CLARIFICATION

NOTE – IMPORTANT

1. This request is served pursuant to CPR Part18

2. The reason(s) why this request has been served are set out in the Response to Defence which has been served by the Claimant

3. You are asked to provide a response to this request in accordance with CPR Part 18 by insert date 14 days from service

4. If you are unable to provide a response by this date then you should immediately contact the Claimant and tell her when you will be able to provide a response.

5. In the event that you do not provide an adequate response to this request by this date (or such other date as may be agreed by the Claimant) then the Claimant will apply to the Court for an order requiring you to provide the information requested.

The Request

1. In the Defence you state: Further, the Claimant is required to plead and prove that the charges which have been debited are unreasonable; (b) all facts and matters relied upon by the Claimant in support of this case and © what charges would have been reasonable.

2. Please provide the following particulars to enable the Claimant to respond adequately to the Defence

2.1 In relation to each charge identified by the Claimant in response to the Defendants request pursuant to CPR Part 18, please provide the actual cost incurred by the Defendant in administering the alleged breach giving rise to the charge.

Dated xxxxxxxxxxxx

Hope that is of some help to you. Like others, I'm interested about the insurance claim. If you are unlikely to be able to work again surely you must be able to claim.

 

Paul

[Mike1106]

Hi guys, here is a draft CPR 18 request that i intend to send to Natwets solicitors, comments suggestions most welcome.

REQUEST FOR FURTHER INFORMATION AND CLARIFICATION

 

NOTE – IMPORTANT

 

1. This request is served pursuant to CPR Part18

 

2. The reason(s) why this request has been served are set out in the Response to the Claim which has been served by the Defendant

 

 

3. You are asked to provide a response to this request in accordance with CPR Part 18 by 25 JANUARY 2007

 

 

4. If you are unable to provide a response by this date then you should immediately contact the Defendant and tell him when you will be able to provide a response.

 

 

5. In the event that you do not provide an adequate response to this request by this date (or such other date as may be agreed by the Defendant) then the Defendant will (to quote your own words) ‘the Defendant will make an application to the court to strike out your claim’.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Request

 

 

1. In the Claim you state details of outstanding amounts as follows:

A) Date 27/09/06

A/C Number -XXXXXX

A/C Type – Current

Amount £XXXXXX

B) Date 27/09/06

A/C Number – XXXXXXX

A/C Type – Loan

Amount £XXXXXX

2. Please provide the following particulars to enable the Defendant to respond adequately to the Claim.

 

2.1 Copies of bank statements for account stated in 1A above from date of opening up and including 27/09/06.

2.2 Copies statements in relation to loan account stated in 1B above from date of opening up to and including 27/09/06.

2.3 Copies of statements for loan accounts XXXXXX and XXXXXX. These are required as loan 1B above was a consolidation loan.

2.4 A full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

Please note that requests 2.1 and 2.4 were made telephonically and in writing on 03/01/07 and despite assurances from the Claimant that the Defendant would receive them within 3 to 5 days, as of 11/1107 the Defendant still has not received them.

In relation to each charge identified by the Claimant in response to the Defendants request pursuant to CPR Part 18, please provide the actual cost incurred by the Claimant in administering the alleged breach giving rise to the charge.

 

Dated xxxxxxxxxxxx

[The cobbett slayer]

Hi Mike

 

My first thought is that some of what you are asking for shouldn't require a Part 18 request as supply of statements is covered by the DPA.

 

That aside, if there is one alteration I would make, it is in Paragraph 2.4. Insert the word "alleged" before breaches and end it there. Delete the rest of the paragraph. You don't need reassurance, you want fact.

 

I would like you to take other opinion with regards to the DPA before you go too far. I had all of my statements before starting my claim so I didn't get involved in that.

 

Paul

[Mike1106]

Thanks for the advice, it makes sense and have done so. It would appear that my case is different from others in that Natwets are taking me to court, so I am hoping I can show that charges etc applied to my accounts are/ were excessive and unfair. Perhaps this will be a test case in that Natwets will have to detail their true costs and prove they are not penalaties. This is the only way I believe I can defend myself. I think though that their solicitors will try and come up with a way of wriggling out of that one, but as it is the only defence I have I will keep it going.

[The cobbett slayer]

Proving that they are not penalties is the one thing that they haven't done in any case and the fact that a large part of the amount they are claiming is made up of penalty charges will be crucial to your defence/counterclaim.

 

I wouldn't expect Natwest to respond to your request and you may have to apply to the court for an order. If it gets that far, let me know and I'll give you what I have used to get it as far as hearing.

 

Funny how brave they are when the boots on the other foot but youcan still fight them.

 

Paul

[Mike1106]

I agree Paul and it would appear that it is up to Natwets to prove that charges are not penalties and as they haven't gone that far yet I am hopeful that the trend continues. If that is the case then it would take care of the o/d situation, the loan however is complicated, in that I will need to prove that it was missold ie. it was a consolidation loan to cover 2 previous loans and the o/d at that stage. The o/d at that stage would not have been incurred if it wasn't for charges and interest etc.

In the post this morning were my statements all neatly packaged and in date order (all present and correct). I have totalled all charges and interest and at the time the consolidation loan was approved my o/d was £2500 (charges and the like up to then were £2257). The o/d currently stands at £2307, charges etc without interest to date = £3028 with interest = £3500

I have a full pot of coffee and plenty of cigs (yes I smoke, know I shouldn't but stress and all you know) on my desk so as some wise person quoted on this site ' let battle commence'. I have nothing to lose. Natwets are taking me to court so I aim to make it as miserable for them as they have made it for me.

[The cobbett slayer]

You need to be a bit careful about how you approach this Mike. The way you present your defence will be crucial. As Natwest are taking you to court, they only have to prove that you owe them the money. Unlike a criminal case which has to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt", a civil case only needs to be proven on the "balance of probabilities" so the case of either party only has to be proven 51% in favour to be successful.

 

There is a loan agreement between you and the bank so quite clearly they loaned you the money and your defence will hinge on whether you would have needed to borrow all or part the money had it not been for penalty charges. I'm not being negative because the principal is exactly the same as if you were claiming from them and I have no doubt that it can be done. As you know from reading my thread, that is exactly what I am claiming from Natwest. It's a case of simple arithmetic really. Had you not incurred the penalty charges you wouldn't have needed to borrow the money to pay them back. The amount of charges exceeds the overdraft so it stands to reason that without them you wouldn't be overdrawn.

 

From here, I would suggest that you do the spreadsheet of all of your charges and draft an initial defence on the basis that the amounts being claimed by Natwest are largely or wholly made up of penalty charges. Include with that your CPR Part 18 request. I would still suggest that you use a similar wording to the one I have used as it is very specific in that you require the actual cost of each and every charge particularised - in your case by the defendant.

 

Any questions just stick them on here and we'll try and sort you out.

 

Paul

[Mike1106]

Paul, many thanks your advice is, as always, sound and most appreciated. I am thinking of not only defending my case on the principles you suggested but also sending out the letter asking for all charges to be repaid.

Mike

[Mike1106]

Well there is no turning back now, letter for refund of charges as detailed below sent off to Natwets.

And as a separate issue a cpr 18 request to Natwets solicitors.

 

NatWest

Manufacturing

Credit Management Services

Kendal Court

Ironmasters Way

Telford

TF3 4DT

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

 

Re. Account number: xxxxxxx

 

 

 

I am writing to request that you repay all the default charges that have been applied to my account. I do not believe these charges reflect the true cost to NatWestof going into unauthorized overdraft.

 

The charges total £3026.48, plus as I believe I have been unlawfully deprived of the money I have calculated £467.67interest at the statutory rate, the amount the court will award.

 

I therefore ask that you repay me the full amount of £3494.15. I have attached a full schedule of the charges and interest with this document.

I look forward for a full response to this letter within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

 

xxxxxxxxx

 

 

IN THE CARMARTHEN COUNTY COURT CLAIM NO xxxxx

BETWEEN: xxxxxx Defendant

 

And

NATIONAL WESTMINSTER BANK PLC Claimant

 

 

REQUEST FOR FURTHER INFORMATION AND CLARIFICATION

 

 

 

NOTE – IMPORTANT

1. This request is served pursuant to CPR Part18

 

2. The reason(s) why this request has been served are set out in the Response to the Claim which has been served by the Defendant

 

 

3. You are asked to provide a response to this request in accordance with CPR Part 18 by 25 JANUARY 2007

 

 

4. If you are unable to provide a response by this date then you should immediately contact the Defendant and tell him when you will be able to provide a response.

 

 

5. In the event that you do not provide an adequate response to this request by this date (or such other date as may be agreed by the Defendant) then the Defendant will (to quote your own words) ‘make an application to the court to strike out your claim’.

 

 

 

The Request

 

 

1. In the Claim you state details of outstanding amounts as follows:

A) Date 27/09/06

A/C Number -xxxxxx

A/C Type – Current

Amount £2,206.42

 

B) Date 27/09/06

A/C Number – xxxxxxxx

A/C Type – Loan

Amount £17,834.20

 

2. Please provide the following particulars to enable the Defendant to respond adequately to the Claim.

 

2.1 Copies of loan agreement for loan xxxxxxxx as stated in 1B above.

 

2.2 Copies of statements for loan accounts xxxxxx and xxxxxxx x. These are required as loan 1B above was a consolidation loan and would not have been required if not for excessive/unfair bank charges.

 

2.3 Afull breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my alleged breaches.

 

In relation to each charge identified by the Claimant in response to the Defendants request pursuant to CPR Part 18, please provide the actual cost incurred by the Claimant in administering the alleged breach giving rise to the charge.

 

Dated 12/1/2007

 

 

 

 

xxxxx

Wish me luck!!

Mike

[Mike1106]

Having spent the best part of yesterday evening going through statements again (Yes I know I am one SAD welshman), it appears that when my laons were consolidated I was charged an extra £2k. ie. The 1st loan had run for 2 years and was paid up to date the 2nd for 12 months and also paid up to date. When settled via they obviuosly took money out of the account after the consolidated amount had been paid to cover the balance owing on the 2 previous ones. But, and here it gets complicated, they charged almost £1k more on both to settle them ( I have taken into account interest etc.) So it looks as if they either charged an early settlement fee or added the insurance premiums as if the loans would run full term.

So besides having an o/d due to unfair charges I was also penalised for settling early, which was done on their advice.

[Mike1106]

Just a quick update, letter requesting refund etc.to Natwets delivered to Telford this morning, as confirmed by Royal Mail track and trace. Now its just sitting and waiting. Letter to Natwets solicitors re: info req. under CPR 18 also delivered this morning, again must now wait for responses.

[Mike1106]

Well the saga continues, I followed up my letters to Natwets with a phone call yesterday to check whether they had received both letters. (Knowing that they had as per Royal Mail track and trace.) Guess what? Yes you are correct they had received the one asking for details under CPR18 but not the one asking for my money to be refunded, Although the first person I spoke did ask 'was it the one with spreadsheets attached' How he knew that if they hadn't rec'd it I dont know. Anyway after a few calls it was left that someone would contact me this morning. Within 5 minutes of me putting the down they called back asking for the track and trace number. I told him I was not prepared to talk to him then as I was busy but to call back today and we could both look at the track and trace system together.

The odd thing here is that everyone I spoke to (6 different people) knew of the CPR18 request, but other than the first person no-one knew about my refund request. I was told that when letters arrive they are opened then passed on after an entry has been made onto your account, but the refund one may have been passed on without an entry being made. The plot thickens. Will update once I have spoken to them this morning.

[Mike1106]

Phone call from Natwets rec'd this morning, and, you will never believe this, they actually found my letter this morning!!!!! Beggars belief. Anyway they are most apologetic for the confusion etc. and a standard ' Forget it, our charges are fair letter' is in the post which I should receive tomorrow. Oh well, guess it's on to the next stage. Now where did I put my pre-written LBA letter, lol.

[Mike1106]

Have been mulling over Natwests attitude to me and fianlly decided to send an e-mail to the complaints department and to the top man, Michael Goodwin. Dont know if it will do any good but I fele better for it, and as the saying goes' what had one got to lose?.

[Mike1106]

Letter rec'd from N/W Customer Care Team this morning stating that my details / request for refund of charges etc has been passed on to the Customer Relations Unit, 'who are more experienced in this area of the business blah blah blah will be in touch within 10 working days.

I also rec'd a years statements 2002 - 2003 (account held from 2001 to 2006). When I queried why I was told they must be copies. The mind boggles at what is going on there as they sent all my statements on 12/01/2007.

As said in previous post it is now time for the 1st LBA.

[Deller]

Ignore their 10 day request, it's you who sets the deadlines not the bank!!

[Mike1106]

Yes I fully intend to, my original letter was dated 12/0/2007, and, even though I had a response dated the 17/01/2007 I will wait until the 26th as that is my deadline. I have also sent letters and e-mails of complaints to the customer service centre and to Sir Fred (CEO of RBos / Natwets, about this and other matters. to put it midly I am bloody angry at the way I and many others have been treated.

A couple of news items on BBC this morning:

1. Bailiffs were sent into branch of RBoS during the week, they seized computers, printers and a cash machine? Were about to take these away when the manager intervened and promised that the monet would be paid. How embarrassing - I love it.

2. Spot penalty fines for street crimes, violence/drunk and disorderly and shop lifting etc range from £30 - £60, if paid within 7 days then there is no criminal record. Go over your O/d limit = £28 and have a d/d returned £38 and default notices placed on record. Has the world gone mad!!!!!

[Mike1106]

Hi all, just a question seeing as my case is being dealt with by this court, I just wondered if any one else has had their case dealt with by them?

[Mike1106]

Hi all , as my case has been reffered to this court I was wondering if any one else had had their case handled by them?

[Mike1106]

Letter from Stuart Higley this morning,asking that I bear with them as they are currently investigating my complaint and will respond as soon as possible. My deadline for LBA is 26/01/2007 so if I haven't heard anything by then the LBA letter will be posted.

[Mike1106]

Hi all, For those that have read my threads you will know that I requested info under CPR 18 From Natwets solicitors, they should have replied to this request today but haven't. Firstly do I wait a few days before making an application to 'strike out' and secondly anyone know how I go about doing this.

Thanks,

Mike.

[Mike1106]

Just an update and question, firstly update, I still haven't had a reply from the solicitors regarding my CPR 18 Request I have spoken to the court and they suggested I wait until next week before making an application to have the claim 'struck out'.

Question: I ta appears the reason why the solicitors haven't supplied info requested under CPR 18 is that Natwets have lost the loan agreement, how do I stand on this?

Thanks,

Mike

[Mike1106]

Have now this moment rec'd my mail, a letter from Natwets Customer CareTeam, they are going to repay the early settlement fee of £1000 from when the loan was consolidated but say the bank charge issue is with another department. Its a victory of sorts but there is still another £8000 to go. Will fire off a letter stating I am still unsatisfied and as they are taking me to court I will defend it all the way and even push to get a hearing as I would not be in this position if it wasn't for the excessive charges and so on.

Any advice re: above - lost loan agreements?

[Mike1106]

bump, any ideas anyone?