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    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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New bathroom installation completely replaced by client who now wants to sue


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Not sure if this is of help but in terms of the cost of carrying out works there are pricing books which have published rates for carrying out jobs, Spon's Architects' and Builders' Price Book being the most common and recognised.  As these contain consensus rates, they can determine the fair cost for rectification works

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Please have a look at the letter below. I made a couple of further refinements. We will try to finish it for tomorrow so that you can get enough tomorrow evening.

 

Quote

 

I was very surprised to receive a claim form  by email on 20thJune and to learn that you had started a legal action against me.

As you know, you didn't give me any indication that you might do this other than one email dated 19 June – the very day before I received your claim form – in which you simply told me that you wouldn't accept £300 refund in respect of the snagging list which I said I would do when I returned from holiday but which it then before I got back seems you have decided to make other arrangements.

I think that it normally takes some time to issue a claim online and then for it to be completed and  served on the defendant and so on that basis I have a feeling that you had already decided to issue your claim at least two or three days earlier while you are discussing the matter of the snagging list and the issues between us.

Anyway, in your 
claim form, you say that you have photographs and videos. Obviously you haven't included those because I don't think there is a facility when issuing a claim online to include that kind of evidence.
It will be very helpful if you would send those to me directly so that I can understand more about your claim and the position.

As you know, when I returned from holiday I was very surprised to find that instead of the snagging work which still needed to be done, you had had the work which I carried out for you completely stripped out and replaced by an installation completely different to that which we had originally agreed.

I expect that you must have received quotes from the person who did that. I would be grateful also if you would let me have copies of the quotations and copies of discussions and invoices which I suppose you must have had with that builder so that I can also understand exactly how you have arrived at your claim.

If you feel that you are unable to do this then please would you let me know and may be indicate why.

As you have decided to begin a County Court action, this dispute will eventually go to trial before a judge. Of course I will produce all the information I have and you will also have to produce your information.

I think it would save time and trouble to everybody and also to the court if we can do this in advance. In addition to the quotations and invoices provided by the builder who stripped out my work, I would also like to know which of my materials were used in your new installation and which ones were not and what happened to them.
Also, we will need to receive evidence from your builder and so it would be helpful to everyone if you could provide me with a during the trial.
Of course your builder's statement should be signed as a statement of truth and they will have to be available to answer questions about this during the trial.


 

 

Also, I did ask you whether the same toilet which you installed was used to the new installation – you haven't answered this. Any reason for that?

I also asked you about obtaining a statement from your electrician and you didn't respond to that either. Any reason for that?

Also, I can't remember if I did ask you – had you already made a snagging this? I think I did ask you to give us a list of the snags but I don't think you respond to that either.

It will be very helpful if you did address questions that we put otherwise the whole thing takes much longer much more than is necessary.
In the end we will need information from you. You will have to provide it

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4 hours ago, BankFodder said:

In terms of the issue timeline – I suppose I'm completely behind but I had no idea that a claim could be issued at 3:51 PM and then served by email within minutes.

@AndyOrch

4.3(4) The court serves the claim on the defendant by sending a paper version of the completed online claim form to the defendant at the postal address given for the defendant.

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/practice-direction-51r-online-court-pilot

Practice Direction 6A, paragraph 4.1 says: “[w]here a document is to be served by fax or other electronic means the party who is to be served or the solicitor acting for that party must previously have indicated in writing to the party serving –

“that the party to be served or the solicitor is willing to accept service by fax or other electronic means; and

“the fax number, e-mail address or other electronic identification to which it must be sent.”

This means that delivery or sending court documents by email is not service, unless the other party expressly consents to it.

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Posted (edited)

So it seems that the claim may not have been properly issued yet.

You received this by email. Was this an email from the court or an email from the claimant?

Also, who made this alteration below – the date and why?

image.thumb.png.bad385f2e307b5538edfcf0505ab8269.png

Edited by lolerz
Removed Claim Number
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Also I thought that the toilet had been replaced but in fact the suggestion is that the basin had been replaced.

Tell us what you know about this please

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Also, in respect of the snagging list prepared by your client – contained in email dated the 18th June, please could you respond to each point contained in it – whether or not you agree and if you agree, what would be the cost of addressing that issue.

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Posted (edited)

Thank you for all of your consideration and time on my case

The revised letter is fine and approved at this stage.

As far as I kno neither the toilet or basin were replaced, the holw referred to by the calimant was an access point to a stop tap that couldnt be moved due to the location at below floor level in the garage

A few minutes ago i gothome to a posted hard copy of the claim the original respond date was 4pm 9thJuly 

In the same post delivery I recieved a further letter showing an additional 14 days for response to 4pm 23rd July

I altered my copy of the claim form posted  earlier so that we were all ware of the revised date

Spoke to my electrician earlier and she is considerring whether to put it in writing in a statement of truth

She doesnt like confrontation and may not. 

Follows from email 20th may 

 The door frames, where it’s all not fitting correctly with gaps and warped timber used.  A relatively simple fix  £25
. Skirting boards on the curved parts where it’s been filled with a filla and not even been smoothed out.  as above £25
. The architrave isn’t joining correctly with one piece with a cutting taken out of it. ive not seen this so cant comment but a simple fix
. Sliding door, no stopper was used to stop it going all the way back and isn’t aligned to the floor. a door stopper was fitted The door slides fully into the pocket to maximise a very tight access witha 2ft 3" door
. The extractor going into the boiler where a round tubes been used to an oblong pipe. It’s also held on by gaffer tape.   not a good standard and an easy fix £25
. The window hasn’t been packed correctly and one opening window isn’t aligned. an easy fix it took 1 minutes on my return from holiday
. One piece of flooring isn’t sitting flush so will damage very quickly. I hadnt seen this,  the flooring supplied by the c,aimant was apoor quality Bnq with click systme that didnt lock weel so a boad may have risen up again an easy fix to replace one board £25

The toilet is far too close to the radiator and you can’t get up if sitting down. The defendant showed the claimant the size of the room right at the beginning and had discussions about it being a tight space I supplied a short reach pan to maximise space. Difficult to change probable cost £2-300 or more dependong on the final position
. The stop tap I cannot get my hand in to be able switch the tap off.  I cut  a hole in the bottom of the basin vanity unit I wsnt particulalry pretty but I have large hands and could turn off the stop top it was below floor level as mentioned earlier  £25 to make hole even bigger
. The window you are aware of that’s cracked and you are replacing.  this was carried out by the defendant, appointment on 10th June on return from holiday

 

 The claimants email of 10th june shows an extended list of items that his builder carried out in claimants absense while I was on holiday and without my consent 

Quality of skirting board that was fitted around the curved wall inside the bathroom and also in the lounge.  see above
. Toilet fitted too close to the radiator where you could potentially burn your leg Claimant shown this at outset I cant  comment too much as I have no measurments see above
. Hardly no space for you to get off the toilet when sat down, especially if you are tall.  This was pointed out prior to fitting the floor
. The hot and cold feed were incorrectly placed to the wrong connection on the sink  Easy 5 minute flexible pipe swap over £10
. The vanity unit isn’t suitable due to the position of the stop tap. Small hole cut in the vanity unit base to try and switch the tap off  see above
. No caulk used around the door frames  easy fix £15
. The extractor fan, where you used a plastic round tube, going to a square tube that was held on by gaffer tape. The square tube then went into a round hole on the outside, this was then filled with foam gap.  Easy fix £25
. The pocket door felt like it wasn’t fixed well, the door at the bottom wasn’t sliding on to the runner very well and you had to help it onto the run. Also no lock on the door.  a relatively easy fix £25
. The boiler door frame had to be replaced due to the timber that was used. The door also was replaced due to the door being fitted to fix into the twisted door frame wood. The door had been shaved so it would fit into door frame that was twisted.  I wasnt aware of this prior to my holiday
The architrave used inside the boiler room was short, had a piece taken out of it. The architrave in the toilet wasn’t fitted well.this is subjective
. You used two single sockets for the bathroom and boiler room. Where I only needed to have I double switch. I fitted a 2 gang light light switch
. The door frame going into the garage you left gaps between the wood and the wall.  maybe required a little filler of quadrant bead£10
. Door handle not fixed correctly and is stiff  easy fix £5
. The window, one opening window doesn’t look level, the other you can’t open it and leave it slightly open in a lock position  fixed by me on my return
. Skirting by the radiator, the hole had been cut too big and had just been filled with filler.  ?? £10 to make good?
. One plank of flooring wasn’t fitted flush and my toe caught it sitting upwards. poor quality flooring supplied by claimant an easy fix £25
 
All pricing is subjective as I didnt have the chance to  look at the complaints
 
Except for moving toilet and replacing pcoket door all snags are relatively minor items That could have been easliy remedied
Interestingly he doesnt mention taking out the pocket door wall, lifting up the floor to move the toilet replacing drains and making new wall
 
 
 
Edited by ohitsonlyme
additional info as foot note
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Tell your electrician that they won't have to attend court. A simple statement accompanied by a statement of truth will be more than adequate and they won't hear anything more of it.

Tell them that you will have to referred to in court anyway but a written statement will help a lot

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I have explained that to her this morning  and have a job starting with her on Tuesday next week so I will chat it through again then

As an alternative we can use the whatsapp message wihout the statement of truth direct to the claimant in the letter requesting information as it may help claimant to a decsion

My preference is to get this out of the way and settle but not at £1200 

£500 or £600 would save us all lots of frustration and time, I have no axe to grind and my client is/ was a very nice man and we both felt the same about each other

 

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I agree about your suggestion or settlement, but I don't think you are there yet. Although this is a judgement you will have to make. 

For the moment you will need to file a defence to the claim, but there's lots of time and we will see what his response to your letter is and whether or not he agrees to provide you with the information you are asking or if he declines. 

It would be useful to have the information but if he declines then this could play into your camp as well. 

We may then have to file a process which requires him to comply. 

So I understand that you have the electrician statement already in a WhatsApp text. 

If you can't get a statement from them then the WhatsApp text will be very useful.

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Also, don't forget that the claimant has already spent about 150 bringing the claim. 

Even if you agree at 600  they will still have the 150 to deal with and frankly I don't think you should be responsible for that. 

The best solution will be to have the case dismissed for lack of protocol and we will deal with that in the defence. 

By including that in the defence, we avoid the need for an application notice and we avoid the need for an upfront fee which you might not get back.

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Okay. We will complete the letter and then see what response it draws

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Please check this suggested letter and let us know if there is anything wrong or anything you want to add.

Please will you read it carefully and take care this time.

Quote

 

I was very surprised to receive a claim form  by email on 20thJune and to learn that you had started a legal action against me.

As you know, you didn't give me any indication that you might do this other than one email dated 19 June – the very day before I received your claim form – in which you simply told me that you wouldn't accept £300 refund in respect of the snagging list which I said I would do when I returned from holiday but which it then before I got back seems you have decided to make other arrangements.

Not only this, but in your email of 20 May, you set out a list of snags which you considered needing attention.

I told you that I would be going on holiday and that I intended to deal with these snags on my return. I should point out that it is completely normal for any building job to need to mining out and it is routine to deal with a "snagging list".

However, when I returned from holiday and discovered firstly that you had employed another building to deal with the snagging list but also you presented me with a much more extensive list which had been presented before and then finally, I understand that the builder who you commissioned to remedy the initial list of snags went on to do far more and to undo a substantial amount of the work which I had done – without any consultation, discussion or warning.



In your claim form, you say that you have photographs and videos. Obviously you haven't included those because I don't think there is a facility when issuing a claim online to include that kind of evidence.
It will be very helpful if you would send those to me directly so that I can understand more about your claim and the position.

As you know, when I returned from holiday I was very surprised to find that instead of the snagging work which still needed to be done, you had had the work which I carried out for you completely stripped out and replaced by an installation completely different to that which we had originally agreed.

I expect that you must have received quotes from the person who did that. I would be grateful also if you would let me have copies of the quotations and copies of discussions and invoices which I suppose you must have had with that builder so that I can also understand exactly how you have arrived at your claim.

If you feel that you are unable to do this then please would you let me know and may be indicate why.

As you have decided to begin a County Court action, this dispute will eventually go to trial before a judge. Of course I will produce all the information I have and you will also have to produce your information.

I think it would save time and trouble to everybody and also to the court if we can do this in advance. In addition to the quotations and invoices provided by the builder who stripped out my work, I would also like to know which of my materials were used in your new installation and which ones were not and what happened to them.
Also, we will need to receive evidence from your builder and so it would be helpful to everyone if you could provide me with a during the trial.


Of course your builder's statement should be signed as a statement of truth and they will have to be available to answer questions about this during the trial.

I look forward to your early response and the information I have asked for.

Yours

Signed
 

 

 

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Good news my sparky has agreed that she would sign a statement of truth.

Would it be worth adding in the letter or defence along the lines of:

" on the 16th of May you complained to my contractor who was on site to carry out the electrical safety certificate,and told her not to say anything to me clearly showing a premediataion in preventing  me from carrying out the snagging"

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For the moment just get the statement. We'll see afterwards 

Get it ASAP in case of a sudden change of heart. You can't imagine how often that happens

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We have been waiting to know that you have obtained the statement. 

 

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Is there a problem with the statement? We need to know where we are with it for this letter and especially for the defence which we will have to have prepared and filed in a couple of weeks

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Posted (edited)

Sorry I didnt realise that we were using the electricians statement of truth in the information request

I wont be seeing her to talk to until Tuesday next week.I am  very sure all will be ok for her to sign but need to talk it thorough face to face

The revised information request had a couple of alterations and queries is I altered your last draft, that is what I was asking about

Edited by ohitsonlyme
typo
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We won't necessarily be using or referring to the statement in the letter, but it will help to refine the position or the approach that we make in the letter. 

Are you not able over the weekend to see your electrician and to get the statement? 

I think it is very important to be cautious and methodical and to make sure that every step is on a sure footing.

I think your chances of success if this goes to trial are pretty good. 

It is clear in any kind of contract and certainly a contract for building works that there is an implied term that you will be allowed to complete the contract and this appears not to have happened here. 

Snagging lists are absolutely normal. It would have been an implied term that there would be a snagging list that you would be obliged to address the snags but also that your client would be obliged to allow you to complete the job properly. 

However, I think that the statement from the electrician is significant and I prefer that you are fully prepared so that you're in the strongest position possible. 

We are still waiting for the statement

I don't like a casual approach

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And incidentally, I will be suggesting that next week at some point you pay your client the admitted amount. 

In other words, if you think that the snagging list was worth 300 then I think that you should pay this sum over to them. Make it clear that this is not intended to be a final settlement. They can accept it without the fear of prejudicing their claim so that your payment is not a trick. However, it will look very good in court when you can demonstrate that you have been very happy to step up to the mark and that it is the client's intransigence which is causing the problem 

That in addition to the lack  of Pre-Action protocol will give you a powerful arguement for at least not having to bear any costs of the action, should a judgement go in favour of the client and  should the court decline to dismiss the case.

 

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I've spoken to my electrician she will give us the statement of Truth

 

 

 

I've spoken to my electrician she will give us the statement of Truth

 

 

 

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Yes, but let's get the statement. 

If for instance, will you make some reference even oblique reference in the letter. Then your client goes to the electrician and complains and for instance says that it was a confidential conversation. Then you could suddenly find that your electrician has second thoughts.

Please do it our way. Your lack of photographs etc. of the work before it began and after it began has been unhelpful and I'm now trying to take a more careful approach.

There is too much word-of-mouth here

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