Log Book Loans took my car....

[hedgehog0045]

After receiving a notice telling me I had arrears on my car payments I then arranged to pay the arrears and bring the account up to date which I did. I then fell into arrears again a couple of months later and had started to pay extra on top of my payments. Last week I came out of the house to go to work and found my car clamped. I telephoned the number on the windscreen notice and was informed that my arrears were £270 and if I wanted to stop the car being taken away then I needed to pay £980. Obviously this amount of money was not available to me and lo and behold an hour later a recovery agent turns up to take the car.

 

The attitude of LBL was that once they have issued a recovery notice they do not have to issue a further one if you fall into arrears again. I would query the legitimacy of this and also the suddenness of the repo, i.e. without warning.

 

What can I do about this???

 

chris

[v_j_r]

The immobilisation of the vehicle is the final notice abiet an abrupt one!, the one hour later is in keeping with guidelines that state, a debtor is normally given a mininium of 1 hours notice that the vehicle will be removed at any time after expirey of that period.

[JonCris]

VJR Who's guidelines, their guidelines? Nothing of what they did is lawful.

 

Hedgehog contact trading standards & report what has happened. They will be interested & they must have quite a large dossier on this firm by now. In addition you need to see a solicitor asap before they flog it to one of their mates.

 

Send a SAR demanding 'true' copies of all paper work & in particular any 'bill of sale' they may claim to have.

 

Also if you can find out which auction it is being sold at you can take steps to secure it by notifying them of YOUR lien & that ownership is in dispute.

 

Also contact HPI & let them know ownership is in dispute & in order to protect themselves they should place a caution on file

 

Lets know what happens

[v_j_r]

VJR Who's guidelines, their guidelines? Nothing of what they did is lawful.

 

1.Certified balliffs guidelines thats who, it's quite normal for any type of balliff to allow this timescale or beyond it's there choice.

 

Hedgehog contact trading standards & report what has happened. They will be interested & they must have quite a large dossier on this firm by now. In addition you need to see a solicitor asap before they flog it to one of their mates.

 

2.Trust me they had a large dossier well before you think they did?.

 

Send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) demanding 'true' copies of all paper work & in particular any 'bill of sale' they may claim to have.

 

3.The bill of sale/Security/Lien as you state is contained within the "Agreement" normally towards the back, it will be signed by the customer/debtor as in this case he/she now is!.

 

Also if you can find out which auction it is being sold at you can take steps to secure it by notifying them of YOUR lien & that ownership is in dispute.

 

4.Read my previous posts regarding the sale of vehicles?,they are sold via a chain of established private traders/dealers online on a little known website/forum of which i am still a little known and "Stealthy" member!.

 

Also contact HPI & let them know ownership is in dispute & in order to protect themselves they should place a caution on file

 

5.What another one!.

 

Lets know what happens

 

No offense @JonCris but you really dont know what you are talking about here or what you are up against!.

[JonCris]

It's their choice..............really!

 

I'm afraid I know only to well. As for my previous comments we will see if in the fulness of time they are correct. Watch this space.

 

As for their 'bill of sale/agreement' having seen one don't get me started.

 

If you really want to help, as I'm sure you do, why don't you tell us about the website, name etc:

 

I really DO know what I'm talking about.

 

As for HPI it may not be a normal part of their practice or procedure but I can assure you that if they should ignore such information & report the vehicle as being without lien or encumbrance they could find themselves the subject of damages litigation

[demon_x_slash]

Oh gods, kiddiwinks, please don't start a row again... hedgehog, do as JonCris suggests, he's dealt with 'em before I seem to recall, with regard to disputing the auction and sending off a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) with a £10 cheque/PO to get all info held on you by LBL. The template's in the library, modify it to your circumstances. When you have your info you'll be in a better position to see why they took the action they took, whether it was lawful or not, and how much money you can claim back (£900 for unclamping a car? Whaa?).

 

There are a LOT of threads on LBL and their dodgy practices. Have a read of those to familiarise yourself with what to expect from them, and get that SAR sent off.

[hedgehog0045]

I have noticed that loads of people have had issues with LBL, myself included, however no-one appears to have made any headway in challenging the way they operate.

 

What I am asking is, what are the chances of getting all those who have had problems with them to approach a solicitor to challenge their operations and do something about them. Surely they cannot be allowed to continue on ripping people off like this?

 

Anybody got any suggestions?

[hedgehog0045]

I had a loan with Log book loans last year who after problems with them they came and STOLE my car. I am going to be fighting the legality of their operations but in the mean time I have received a letter form a debt collection agency called Daniel Silverman who have informed me that the shortfall on the sale of the car must be paid within 7 days or they will take recovery action through the courts. They have stated that if I do not pay then recovery action may lead to

- You having to pay all solicitors fees and court costs

- Judgement being awarded against you in court

- Debt details being registered affecting your ability to obtain credit in future

- Bailiffs calling at your premises.

 

Interestingly the letter is dated 26th of May and I got it on the 30th. That leaves 3 days !!!

 

I know I have to pay this debt but what is the best way of dealing with these people to make it less painless for me?

[Hopeful1]

Just subscribing my support.

 

What a nightmare :-| . Are you taking legal advice regarding the stealing of your car? I'm guessing if you're taking action you would have to write to Daniel Silverman to say the debt is in dispute and maybe explain what's going on.

 

Hold fire, i'm sure someone with a bit more clout than me will post soon with some advice. Give as much info as you can: Did you get your car back? Was it reported to the police? How much do you owe? If you wanted to repay the debt, how much could you afford a month? etc etc

 

Everyone will do what they can to help

[hedgehog0045]

The car was taken after I fell into a few weeks arrears and they then clamped it and demanded a stupid amount of money to unclamp it. They then took the car after an hour and told me it would be sold at auction in 7 days if I did not pay up the arrears and costs etc. The arrears amounted to £209 but with the costs of clamping etc it rose to £981.

 

I had no choice other than to let the car go and fight another day which I am working on at the moment but this will take some time unfortunately. They are claiming £1055 even thought the balance after the sale of the car was only £780 so I guess this is interest and costs on top.

 

Can I get them to stop adding interest. If I paid £25 a week would this be a reasonable amount?

[Hopeful1]

Hedgehog, i have to stress that i am new to all this. But the amount you will end up paying out is astonishing :o . You paid an awful lot to have it unclamped etc when they sold it anyway.

 

I'm wondering if you should be asking them for a copy of your agreement to clarify exactly what charges, interest rates etc they quoted you - a CCA. If you do this, you would need to post it on here for the experienced ones to look at to ensure it is ok. Where did you sign the original agreement, was it on their premises?

 

I would also send a S.A.R so that you can see exactly what you have been paying for and to check the legalities of any interest/charges they've applied to your account.

 

With regards to paying them, i would be reluctant to commit to much at this stage. Perhaps if you're sending a CCA request you could say you are reviewing your finances but have enclosed a token payment of a pound. When they've sent all your info you can ascertain exactly what you owe and take it from there.

 

You probably know this but..send all correspondence by recorded delivery and keep receipts. Don't discuss anything over the 'phone - just in case they can't be trusted !!

 

Hopefully someone else will post during the day. All i've said is just gut instinct stuff, i don't know if it's right.

 

When arranging to pay any debt it is important to do a budget plan and only offer what you can afford.

 

Good luck

[powelll]

Log Book loans secure any loan to your car with something called a Bill of Sale. There are various things which must be done to make a Bill of Sale enforceable. It's very common that something is done incorrectly which renders the Bill of Sale invalid. This in turn makes the secured element of the credit agreement invalid. ie you owe the money but they can't take your car if you don't pay.

 

All Bills of Sale must be registered at the High Court within a certain time; the Bill of Sale itself must also contain certain prescribed terms. I would strongly recommend you get this looked over by someone or post it on here

[Hopeful1]

Me again ! I just did as quick search for log book loans on this site. Many others have had / are having problems. Either just search log book loans or go to the Vehicle Retailers & Manufacturers forum and have a look at the posts there.

[hedgehog0045]

I still have the original agreements etc so will scan them tonight and post them on here.

 

Thanks everyone.

[powelll]

No probs at all - if I am not about ( I only have internet at work ) there are loads of others on here who can have a look at it for you.

[hedgehog0045]

I have dug out my copies of the billof sale and agreements from LBL . I have pdf copies, can anyone check them for me to see if there are any issues.

One thing that is interesting is that none of them signed but I guess the copies they have are.

[hedgehog0045]

There is also a remark in the bill of sale about breaking windows or doors to gain entry to premises if required to seize the vehicle...ermmm is this not illegal practice!!!

[hedgehog0045]

Have just been sent copies of my paperwork relating to the incident with the car repo. Can anyone here take a look at them for legality? They are hassling me for repayment of an outstanding balance??

[gizmo111]

I have just sent you a PM with some info

[joe1471]

i trying to plaster this message to as many people as possible. its a wee bit technical. if the thugs sorry baliffs come to the door they should have a visible blue badge with the SIA logo on it + photo. SIA stands for Security industry Authority this a legal requirement that they must have. if they dont ask them if have a licence dispensation number (this is what they get when they are waiting on their badge to arrive) if the dont have ldn then contact the local police *******THEY ARE WORKING ILLEGAL************ sometimes the police are slow to get involved as they think it is a private matter. Quote - the security industry act 2001. also contact the SIA they have the legal powers to prosecute and fine the individual and company.

the SIA has been in England and Wales for approx. 2 years and only in scotland a couple of months. i had the baliffs out at 0500 to clamp the car back out at 0800 to lift and when i mentioned the SIA they gave me till 1700 to get a reduced figure from £900 to £500

[Bigbear733]

Hi Everyone

I have a way to get back at Log Book Loans (“LBL”) and Mobile Money (“MM”). I assure you, this will work - I am a lawyer.

I have read the various threads with some horror at the tactics used by LBL and MM and this is my reason for posting.

Unfortunately, first some bad new – the loans they issue, and the way they secure their interest over a vehicle, via a Bill of Sale (“BOS”), is completely legal, if they follow the correct procedure. I have reviewed a LBL case and they seem to be doing everything correctly; I have not looked a MM, but I would presume they are also following the correct procedure. Furthermore, despite some posts that suggest the contrary, they can take possession of goods which are secured by way of a BOS without a court order.

Sorry, it gets worse before it gets better – if you are unfortunate enough to purchase a vehicle which has a chattel mortgage (what the BOS effectively creates) attached to it then, even though you are an innocent party, the vehicle can still legally be taken off you without a court order.

I am surprised that I have seen another lawyer in a press article suggest that this is illegal – he referrers to innocent parties purchasing vehicles with outstanding hire purchase (“HP”) agreements and, what he refers to as “other loans” (although he does not elaborate on what other loans are), and states that the an innocent purchaser obtain the goods with good legal tile. He is completely correct in relation to HP agreements as s27 Hire Purchase Act 1964, as substituted by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, provides that an innocent purchaser without notice (ie in non legal speak - a private individual who buys something not knowing that the item was subject to a HP agreement) takes the goods purchased with good legal title. However, there is no such provision for security taken by way of a BOS. In fact, the common law position was amended by s27 and a good analogy to explain why the law works this way is to consider stolen property. If your car was stolen and sold to an innocent party do you think that if the police managed to locate the vehicle you should not be able to re-claim the car – obviously I would think most of you would think that if something is stolen from you then you can take it back once located – and this is exactly the legal position. The general rule in law is that someone can only give good legal title if they themselves posses it, and, unless there is some legislative exception, this rules applies to the sale and purchase of all chattels (in simple terms, chattels is legal speak for property which is not land and buildings – sorry if I sound patronising but I know there are some reader who are not as legally conversant as other and I just want them to understand what I am saying).

I have read a number of other posts that incorrectly state the law and give false hope but I don’t have the time to deal with each issue raised.

Unfortunately, in my opinion it will be very difficult to legally challenge LGL or MM based on the BOS.

However, now for the good news. To operate within the law lenders require a consumer credit licence. This is issued by the Office of Fair Trading (“OFT”) and recent legislative changes have given the OFT significantly more discretion and powers in who to issue consumer credit licences to and, where appropriate, to revoke such licences.

My proposal is that we work together to get the consumer credit licences of LBL and MM removed and this is how to do it:

The law in relation to credit advertising was changed recently by the Consumer Credit (Advertising) Regulation 2004 (the “Regulations”). I will not bore you with the details but the OFT have issued guidance to lenders on the interpretation of these regulations. Basically a lender must publish a typical APR where, amongst other things, they offer credit to people with a poor credit history or where they offer an incentive.

The OFT have stated that terms such as “No Credit Checks” or “Super Fast Loans”, or similar, will trigger the requirements to publish a typical APR. See para 8.16 of the following guidance: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft746.pdf

I have seen advertisement placed by both MM and LBL that contravene the Regulations by not stating a typical APR. I saw one today – they are not difficult to find.

This is what I propose that everyone does – look out for MM and LBL adverts. If they say anything like “fast loans”, “no credit checks”, “CCJ’s - no problem”, “Cash Loans within 30 minutes” etc then they must quote a typical APR. If they don’t then they have broken the law.

Report every breach of these regulations to your local trading standards (a letter or e-mail is best, but phone if you don’t have time). If enough complaints are received then the OFT will have to consider revoking their consumer credit licences. What’s even better, the directors of LBL and MM will face criminal prosecutions and convictions as breaching the Regulations is actually a criminal offence.

If enough people take action, as I have suggested, then LBL and MM will lose their consumer credit licences and this will stop them trading – in short, there is more than one way to skin a cat!

I hope this has been helpful and I wish you all luck.

[applecart]

It would seem that there is many ways to 'skin a cat' and certainly the post regarding the advertising issues and APR negligence is just one such way.

 

LBL can also be taken to task as regards their breach of the regulations pertaining to the BOS not being in the prescribed manner as laid down within the BOS Act 1878 - the breach is that the documents are not correctly executed......

 

In direct contravention to OFT guidelines they also assert ambiguosly that the documents are registered, but what they do not tell you is that the document may be incorrectly executed. They should give you clear and transparent information.

 

They also assert that they are members of the FOS - this does not apply to any Agreement that was entered into before 6th April 2007 - and as they are not members of any other organisation - these agreements appear to have no port for redress should you wish to escalate a complaint. In these instances - I would recommend taking the matter direct to the OFT.

 

Additionally, there have been many instances where default notices do not give the full 7 days notice and I beleive the CCA 2006 now affords 14 days notice instead of 7 days

 

Arrears letters are supposed to be sent prior to a default notice and where LBL fail to do this, again the CCA 2006 at section 86D - 3 states

 

"the creditor or owner shall not be entitled to enforce the agreement during the period of non-compliance" (this means they cannot legally take your car)

 

section 86D - 4 states

 

"the debtor or hirer shall have no liability to pay" (confirms that as you have no liability they cannot enforce the agreement by taking your car)

 

They are also supposed to send you an annual statements in addition to arrears letters.

 

The idea is that when you get an arrears letter, you can ask the courts to give you more time to pay - they have denied you this civil liberty by the sounds of things.

 

Also in taking your car without notice, notice includes writing to you to let you know the day and time they intend to collect the vehicle - this notice is to give you time to decide what to do - the fact they turned up within the hour, forcing you to come up with a large sum of money in this way is not acceptable to their governing body - the OFT

 

The OFT publish the guidelines on thier website for all Licensed lenders such as LBL and clients to see how they should be treated when they are in default - anything outside these guidelines is not acceptable.

 

Harassment of debtors is a punishable offence as can be seen in the Administration of Justice Act 1970.

 

I would also suggest that the debt collection practises of LBL more fall under the following laws:

 

Aggrevated Trespass - Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994 - s-68

Harassment of a person in their home - Criminal Justice & Police Act 2001, s 42

Threats to cause criminal damage - criminal damage Act 1971 s2

Breach of the Peace - Magistrates Court Act 1980 s.115

Intentional harassment, alarm & distress - public Order Act 1986 s4a

 

Take heart in the fact that the OFT have not been a sitting duck, when it comes to the practises of LBL - and on the 13 March 09, have minded LBL that they are considering the revocation of thier licence.......

 

21 days and a possible appeal is all you will have to wait before justice is done.

 

If I were you I would immediately send a 'report' of what has happened to you directly to the OFT by email [email protected] even if they do not respond to you directly, you must trust that the information will be put to good use.

Licence Details of log book loans.txt

[applecart]

Be minded that when you are in default on a loan, where a 'collection agent' comes to collect the car, they do not need to have a SIA licence.

 

Also SIA licences are not held by Companies - they are held and registered to the individual.

 

LBL will inform any police officer of this fact when you report that the collection agent has no SIA licence - and this disarms the police power to make a lawful arrest and advise you that it is a civil matter.

 

I beleive it becomes a criminal matter when LBL seeks to enforce on an account where the debt is disputed and has not been resolved to the satisfaction of both parties......

 

You should be able in this instance to rely on 'the Harassment of a person in their home' - criminal justice & police Act 2001 may help along with laws pertaining to 'Harassment of debtors' - Administration of Justice Act 1970 s 40

 

Also - 'Breach of the peace' - Magistrates Court Act 1980 s115

 

If you quote these Acts to a police officer, he may be able to rely ont these laws or one of them to abate the action of a collection agent by making a verbal undertaking between the parties that the collection agent can take no action to enforce the debt without first resolving the dispute.

 

My advise would be; that at the instance you are in dispute with Log Book Loans you should inform both the local police and the OFT of a possible 'breach of the peace' on a loan in dispute, and let LBL know you have taken this action. the oft email address is [email protected]

 

This should let all parties know that you are aware of your civil right which is that where LBL have not resolved the matter or cannot resolve the matter, they must follow legal protocol, and storming in to take your car would not be legal protocol.

[JonCris]

Applecart I wholeheartedly agree with for-warning the Police my only suggestion would be that it be done not at the local nick but much higher up the chain of command such as a senior officer at HQ

[applecart]

Hi Jon

 

Your suggestion makes a lot of sense - there may be another way that all police forces can be put on their guard - It may be by way of getting support through some official body more so than the odd indiviual popping into the local police station.

 

I think I will take this on as my next project - thanks for the idea : )

 

Clearly, individuals who simply don't pay or won't pay without good cause may not warrant such protection - but certainly for those where there is just cause - they need to be able to pick up the phone and dial 999 - when lbl collection agents arrive at 3.00 in the morning...........and know that the police will respond........

 

Clearly in such instances anyone - who feels that they find themselves in such a life threatening situation at that time in the morning - should seek redress via a police service - any reputable company, carrying out a legitimate task would not call at such an Un-Godly hour.

 

The cry for help - needs to be 'breach of the peace!'