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    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Returned NIP Nov23 - Heard Nothing - Now It's been returned as refused and have SJPN Form


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Do not under any circumstances plead guilty until we know what we are dealing with. It's a sure way to 9 points.

The tried and tested way to handle this is to plead not guilty to both charges and offer to plead guilty to speeding provided the "Fail to give information" charge is dropped. But I am concerned about this "ticket refused" sticker. I've never heard of this before. A "ticket" is not a term used in connection with speeding offences.

There seems a distinct possibility that your response was received by the police but one thing worries me: I've never heard of a sticker being placed on a response and it being returned "Return to Sender". t's just not what ticket offices do. If you could post a picture of this document and the sticker it might help. 

If you can show the response was received you may have a defence to the "Fail to Provide" charge (provided you completed your response properly).

If the police are saying you did not respond they cannot succeed with a speeding charge (as they have no evidence you were driving). But if you did not respond, who put the sticker on the document and sent it back yo you?

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Posted (edited)

Without seeing this envelope, document and sticker it is impossible to advise properly. However, just going on what you have told us, there are two ways you can deal with this:

!. The easy way. This has the lowest risk but the guarantee of a penalty for speeding. 

You can respond to the SJPN by pleading “Not Guilty” to both charges. In the “Reasons for pleading Not Guilty” box you can explain that you responded to the request for driver’s details but it was recently returned to you, seemingly not actioned. However, you are willing to plead guilty to the speeding charge providing, and only providing, the “Fail to Provide Driver's Details" (FtP) charge is dropped. You could also ask the court to consider sentencing you at the fixed penalty level (£100 and 3 points) as this prosecution seems to be the result of an administrative problem outside your control.

2. The not so easy way with higher risk. This could see you convicted of the FtP charge but has the possibility that you escape with no penalty whatsoever.

You can do the same – plead not guilty to both charges. If you go down this route the speeding charge cannot succeed as they have no evidence you were driving. This comes from your response to the request for driver’s details which the police say they have not got. You can mention in the “Reasons” box that you returned the request for driver’s details as required. You will then face a trial for the FtP charge and you can produced your response together with the envelope and sticker showing it had been returned to you. The risk with this is that if your defence fails you will be fined a week and a half’s net income, pay a “Victim Surcharge” of 40% of the fine, pay prosecution costs of around £650 and have six points together with an endorsement code (MS90) which will see your insurance premiums rocket.

Edited by Man in the middle
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So, your response was not received by the SCP as you did not send it with a valid stamp.

Therefore, from my two option in post #14, the first option is the only one available to you, but you do not have the option of asking to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level as the reason the SCP did not receive your response was down to you. Here's a reminder of what to do:

Respond to the SJPN by pleading “Not Guilty” to both charges. In the “Reasons for pleading Not Guilty” box state that you are willing to plead guilty to the speeding charge providing, and only providing, the “Fail to Provide Driver's Details" (FtP) charge is dropped. This is a tried and tested method to deal with your problem and is almost always successful.

Before the pandemic it was necessary to attend court to do this "deal" because it needs the agreement of the police prosecutor.. During the pandemic courts made every effort to have as few  people as possible attend and they began doing this deal under the "Single Justice" procedure without the defendant's attendance. Some courts have carried this procedure on whilst others have reverted to a personal attendance being necessary.

If you are required to attend, your case will be taken out of the SJ procedure and you will be given a date for a hearing in the normal Magistrates' Court. If that is the way they do it in the area involved you will have to attend, see the prosecutor and offer your "deal" in person. 

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Posted (edited)
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Also the SJNP notes say they sent a reminder i did definitely receive this if i did it would have prompted me to realise something was wrong and rectified.

No reminders are required by law. As a result of that, whether the police say they sent one or not, whether they actually did so or not and whether you received it or not has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. 

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I have to fill the form in online today so any more advice is gratefully received.

I have explained what to do in the third paragraph of my post #22. You don't need to do any more than that.

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i know you cannot say for certain but realistically by pleading the above what would be the most likely outcome be ?

is it still likely to be 3 points and £100 fine ? or am i likely to receive higher and more fees?

The most likely outcome is that your offer (to plead guilty to speeding if the FtP charge is dropped) will be accepted by the prosecutor. What happens next is for the court to decide. This "deal" is done every day in courts up and down the land and all court users (prosecutors, Magistrates and their legal advisors) are familiar with it. 

Although I said you could not ask to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level, that was incorrect. There is nothing to stop you asking (and if you do, you should mention it under "Mitigation" when you fill in your return). You can mention the circumstances you were in when you returned the request for driver's details and suggest that is why the error with the stamp may have occurred. 

My feeling, however, is that your request will be denied. If it is, you will face sentencing under the normal guidelines. These suggest a fine of half a week's net income (reduced by a third for your guilty plea.- so one third of a week's income). You will also be ordered to pay a "Victim Surcharge" of 40% of the fine and prosecution costs of around £90. You will also have three points imposed on your driving record.

You may be lucky and encounter a kindly Magistrate who settles on the fixed penalty equivalent or you may see something in between (with perhaps the prosecution costs left off). But the worst case is as in the previous paragraph.

There's no need to fret too much over this. The important thing is to make sure you plead not guilty to both charges and make it absolutely clear that you will plead guilty to speeding only if the other charge is dropped. You may be asked to attend court or it may be handled under the SJ procedure. I don't know how they work this matter in South Wales.

Edited by Man in the middle
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