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    • OK - thank you. I understand the concept of LIP, and the need to keep my claim as simple and straightforward as possible. The legal arguments presented in what I called my skeleton statement were already in the original template I downloaded from this site. In that document I opened with "I am not proposing to set out the sequence of events." Might it be worthwhile for me to include a very brief timeline at that point, which would perhaps then allow it to become my witness statement? Or do you consider two separate documents are required? 
    • BF do you know where the instruction for skeleton has come from? Its just WX + docs. Do you think a skeleton is needed if the only issue in dispute is the legality of the exclusion terms. it seems excessive as well as wx no?   ah yes good point with LIP wx format i didnt think about the LIP judge softhand 
    • And incidentally, the really important part of this is that when you go to court, you are totally thorough and fluent not only with the facts – but with the effect of the legal points you are arguing. The facts are broadly not in dispute but the legal effect for instance of either having insurance or not having insurance. Of requiring insurance – these are the things you need to understand fully. Preparing your court bundle and eventually refining it bit by bit is terrific revision for you and will put you in control but also understanding its content fully and being fluent with its pages in the position of every point you are making is also essential.
    • Skeleton argument/witness statement – it's just a matter of terminology and we don't need to make an issue of it. Actually the three-page document that you have posted first of all and which you have called skeleton argument – is a witness statement which would be attached to the bundle which would be part of your indexed court bundle. I haven't looked at it in detail get or how it supports your claim or how it addresses any of the points made in the defence. I'll have to do that in the next two or three days. But for the moment, it looks fine. You have posted a second document which you are describing as an anonymized witness statement and as far as I can see, I agree with Cagger @jk2054 that much of your circle witness statement is a bit of a waffle and contains irrelevant information that you haven't remedied it in your final version which you say is chopped up. Also, you have received a suggestion of a template from Cagger @jk2054 and although this is going to be confusing for you, I don't think you should bother to use it. It is far too formal. You are a litigant in person and you need the flexibility of fully informing but informal documents which is what we are providing you with. We are suggesting models which we have been using over many cases and they all succeed in some them have been, complemented by the judge for the effectiveness and their clarity. You are litigant in person and one of the things you need to do is you need to have the judge on your side and helping you if necessary and this means that you don't want to start acting or talking or writing as if you are some kind of lawyer – you aren't. Being a litigant personage a certain sort of leverage and you should exploit that. The templates that we are suggesting to you are still not the templates that a completely un-advised person would use but they are still thorough. Stick to them. I suggest that you follow the advice given by the site team here and avoid confusion by switching horses. So for the moment I would suggest that you stick to your original skeleton argument – which follows the format that we have been using on this forum. We do like to see the fully prepared bundle please. I think there should be a next step. Have you got hearing date? Have you got a date for filing your bundle? In fact I have just looked back and I see that your filing date is 8 July. That's fine
    • First of all – as has already been pointed out to you, this is not a defect in the usual way that we understand and so that means that you don't need to rely on your 30 day and six months rights to reject. You can get MOT test done and it turns out to be an MOT failure for any reason then you have the added weight that they have is sold you an unroadworthy vehicle. Who did the existing MOT? I have a sense that it was big motoring world themselves in which case this would give you even greater leverage that if you have an MOT fail and it seems fairly clear that the reason for the failure is something which existed for some time that that would also cast doubt over the MOT provided by big motoring world and this would be even more serious. In any event, the vehicle is not as described and I think that this is an immediate ground for cancelling the policy and even better than that I think it would be a good ground for resisting any deduction made for mileage used – although we will have to deal with as it comes. I have read on Facebook that big motoring world tend to insist on quite a big deduction per mile and I have a sense that they do this because they know they can get away with it because they know their customers are really just happy to get rid of the vehicle any cost. You have told us you've got to a position where they seem to have agreed that you have now drawn a blank and they are being obstructive. Maybe you can lay out a bullet point chronology of exactly what has happened so far – point by point. I don't think you've told us how much you pay for the vehicle and also we want to know a list of the other expenses to which you been put including insurance et cetera and if you cancel the insurance how much you are likely to lose. How long is it not been driven? Why is it not been driven by your son? Didn't you planned for the more expensive insurance premium before you bought it? I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe you bought it and then was surprised at how expensive it was and are now finding a reason to return it. Please be completely level with us and tell us if this forms part of your reason for wanting to return it. We need to know everything – straight dealing – so we can help you in the best way possible. Otherwise we will have surprises sprung on us and we will all be embarrassed and you may lose. In fact I see that we don't know anything about the current all – make, model, mileage, or price paid which have already asked you about. Any reason that we don't have these very basic and obvious details without having to ask for them? You refer to the two new runflat tyres – why? Are these new ones which came with the car or these new ones which you had to buy and if so why did you have to buy them and how much they cost. It will be nice not to have to cross-examine your every detail. It will save a lot of time. Please have a look at this post carefully, discern the questions and address each one please.
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      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Appeal Bundles - Civil Appeals - Parcel Delivery Firms


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Hello,

I'm wondering if someone can advise me on something.

I'm appealing an order and have been asked to submit an appeal bundle and the below points are required to be included:

1) transcript of the judgment of the lower court on other record of reasons. 

2) Statement of case.

I'm wondering if anyone knows that "on other record of reasons" means.

Also for statement of case would it just be a long document covering the reason for the claim, the findings of the lower court, why it was wrong and what I seek instead?

 

Thanks,

underpaid paralegal

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Its just a case against a parcel delivery firm where parcel lost and a judge didnt agree that they were liable for more then insurance ws.

 

However my question is more about what the wording on the points of the order says which I copied above

underpaid paralegal

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Other case law relied upon

" On other record of reasons "

We could do with some help from you.

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Formal court documents setting out a party's case. They include claim form; particulars of claim; defence; reply to defence; Part 20 claims and further information under CPR Pt 18.

We could do with some help from you.

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Posted (edited)

thanks thats the sort of thing I was thinking

Edited by jk2054

underpaid paralegal

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You will also be expected to submit a skeleton argument as part of your bundle.

We could do with some help from you.

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it doesnt say that anywhere but I did think so.

 

Ill pop up a draft if you can look over it?

underpaid paralegal

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Certainly 

Are you seeking permission or has it been granted ?

 

 

.

We could do with some help from you.

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I'm seeking permission.

I've attached the order here. 

The only slight issue is the Judge's handwriting for the original appeal is honestly near impossible to read. I've asked for the reasons in typed format but I'm awaiting a response.

 

D(0453153.SKAL) redacted.pdf

underpaid paralegal

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We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

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Ok that says for court of appeal though and I've not received "a core bundle index".

Also as I'm not represented that form says I don't need to submit one. 

I'm guessing you think its a good thing to do as a matter of course?

underpaid paralegal

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Thanks,

I'm finishing up the skeleton and hope to have it done today.

Will look at statement of case too and get that done over the next few days.

underpaid paralegal

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Well I've had a look. As an index page I suppose it looks very smart but it really doesn't tell us anything. Also, we don't know anything about the case, what it's about and what you you are appealing about.

I don't think we can give any better advice than that it looks good so far.

Overall, I don't understand the need for secrecy

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  • 2 weeks later...

There's not really any secrecy. A judge limited the amount I could recover to their free cover limit because I didn't buy their insurance for a parcel from ages ago.

I've been working on my skeleton and have nearly finished that.

@AndyOrch I'm wondering if you can give me some pointers for my statement of case because really It's the one thing I'm not too sure on. 

What things shoud/shouldnt be in it and what differentiates it from my POC/WX?

underpaid paralegal

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So for statement of case I've just compiled all the documents already filed with the court (so claim form, defence and both WX)

Would this be right?

It's nothing new?

On 04/05/2024 at 18:47, AndyOrch said:

Formal court documents setting out a party's case. They include claim form; particulars of claim; defence; reply to defence; Part 20 claims and further information under CPR Pt 18.

 

underpaid paralegal

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Referring back to to your initial post...

On 03/05/2024 at 17:19, jk2054 said:

I'm appealing an order and have been asked to submit an appeal bundle

So not a judgment ?

We could do with some help from you.

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16 hours ago, jk2054 said:

So for statement of case I've just compiled all the documents already filed with the court (so claim form, defence and both WX)

Would this be right?

It's nothing new?

 

A copy of your skeleton and/ or fresh in-depth statement (along with your  previous witness statement).You are aware that in appeals against judgments its pointless just duplicating everything already presented in your initial claim you have to be able to prove a procedural error or error in law and that the the judge has failed in one of those aspects of the claim ?

What a judge awards or determines is at his discretion

On 17/05/2024 at 19:54, jk2054 said:

A judge limited the amount I could recover to their free cover limit because I didn't buy their insurance for a parcel from ages ago.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

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Posted (edited)

Yep.

So can i just submit my skelton and then Claim form and WX and that will suffice to meet the criteria of statement of case?

Edited by jk2054

underpaid paralegal

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