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    • Answers to Stu's questions: 1) I live in a communal building and so therefore I originally assumed that it was a communal dish for the entire building, although I have not heard anyone else complain about this. I am probably the only person who lives here that actually has Sky and so the only person who uses the dish in question. There is another dish on the same side of the building which is a bit below that one towards the corner of the building, but I know which dish serves my flat as it was directlyt above where the scaffolding originally was. When I saw the blue screen on my front room TV I immediately telephoned my local Housing Association, although since then it has mostly been email contact in the past six weeks. 2) I don't personally own the dish myself as it was already there when I moved in here back in 2014 - as a matter of fact, I didn't even know which dish served my flat when it came to receiving satellite TV channels on my Digibox. I believe by implication that Sky must have installed it instead. At my old place which was a council house before I moved here, I had a Sky dish installed which was my own (a bloke came one Sunday morning back in 2005 to do the honours) , although I left it behind when I moved so that the next people could use satellite TV,  and also due to the fact that there would already be a satellite dish at the back of the building at my new place as well as a satellite socket on the wall at the back of the TV and so therefore I didn't need to take my old one with me. My Digibox and my account came with me when I moved to my present address. I would also like to say that the workman who was working on putting the satellite dish right will be returning on tomorrow - Wednesday 26th June 2024 to finally correct the dish via a cherry picker and so for the first time in six weeks, I will have proper TV again in my front room! I will post again once more on this thread to let you know that it has officially been done. Meanwhile, I have everything crossed for tomorrow that the satellite TV will be back on again, because he had been let down twice already. Wednesday is Day 44 of this charade, and hopefully the final day of it as well.             
    • Thank you for all of your consideration and time on my case The revised letter is fine and approved at this stage. As far as I kno neither the toilet or basin were replaced, the holw referred to by the calimant was an access point to a stop tap that couldnt be moved due to the location at below floor level in the garage A few minutes ago i gothome to a posted hard copy of the claim the original respond date was 4pm 9thJuly  In the same post delivery I recieved a further letter showing an additional 14 days for response to 4pm 23rd July I altered my copy of the claim form posted  earlier so that we were all ware of the revised date Spoke to my electrician earlier and she is considerring whether to put it in writing in a statement of truth She doesnt like confrontation and may not.  Follows from email 20th may   The door frames, where it’s all not fitting correctly with gaps and warped timber used.  A relatively simple fix  £25 . Skirting boards on the curved parts where it’s been filled with a filla and not even been smoothed out.  as above £25 . The architrave isn’t joining correctly with one piece with a cutting taken out of it. ive not seen this so cant comment but a simple fix . Sliding door, no stopper was used to stop it going all the way back and isn’t aligned to the floor. a door stopper was fitted The door slides fully into the pocket to maximise a very tight access witha 2ft 3" door . The extractor going into the boiler where a round tubes been used to an oblong pipe. It’s also held on by gaffer tape.   not a good standard and an easy fix £25 . The window hasn’t been packed correctly and one opening window isn’t aligned. an easy fix it took 1 minutes on my return from holiday . One piece of flooring isn’t sitting flush so will damage very quickly. I hadnt seen this,  the flooring supplied by the c,aimant was apoor quality Bnq with click systme that didnt lock weel so a boad may have risen up again an easy fix to replace one board £25 The toilet is far too close to the radiator and you can’t get up if sitting down. The defendant showed the claimant the size of the room right at the beginning and had discussions about it being a tight space I supplied a short reach pan to maximise space. Difficult to change probable cost £2-300 or more dependong on the final position . The stop tap I cannot get my hand in to be able switch the tap off.  I cut  a hole in the bottom of the basin vanity unit I wsnt particulalry pretty but I have large hands and could turn off the stop top it was below floor level as mentioned earlier  £25 to make hole even bigger . The window you are aware of that’s cracked and you are replacing.  this was carried out by the defendant, appointment on 10th June on return from holiday    The claimants email of 10th june shows an extended list of items that his builder carried out in claimants absense while I was on holiday and without my consent  Quality of skirting board that was fitted around the curved wall inside the bathroom and also in the lounge.  see above . Toilet fitted too close to the radiator where you could potentially burn your leg Claimant shown this at outset I cant  comment too much as I have no measurments see above . Hardly no space for you to get off the toilet when sat down, especially if you are tall.  This was pointed out prior to fitting the floor . The hot and cold feed were incorrectly placed to the wrong connection on the sink  Easy 5 minute flexible pipe swap over £10 . The vanity unit isn’t suitable due to the position of the stop tap. Small hole cut in the vanity unit base to try and switch the tap off  see above . No caulk used around the door frames  easy fix £15 . The extractor fan, where you used a plastic round tube, going to a square tube that was held on by gaffer tape. The square tube then went into a round hole on the outside, this was then filled with foam gap.  Easy fix £25 . The pocket door felt like it wasn’t fixed well, the door at the bottom wasn’t sliding on to the runner very well and you had to help it onto the run. Also no lock on the door.  a relatively easy fix £25 . The boiler door frame had to be replaced due to the timber that was used. The door also was replaced due to the door being fitted to fix into the twisted door frame wood. The door had been shaved so it would fit into door frame that was twisted.  I wasnt aware of this prior to my holiday The architrave used inside the boiler room was short, had a piece taken out of it. The architrave in the toilet wasn’t fitted well.this is subjective . You used two single sockets for the bathroom and boiler room. Where I only needed to have I double switch. I fitted a 2 gang light light switch . The door frame going into the garage you left gaps between the wood and the wall.  maybe required a little filler of quadrant bead£10 . Door handle not fixed correctly and is stiff  easy fix £5 . The window, one opening window doesn’t look level, the other you can’t open it and leave it slightly open in a lock position  fixed by me on my return . Skirting by the radiator, the hole had been cut too big and had just been filled with filler.  ?? £10 to make good? . One plank of flooring wasn’t fitted flush and my toe caught it sitting upwards. poor quality flooring supplied by claimant an easy fix £25   All pricing is subjective as I didnt have the chance to  look at the complaints   Except for moving toilet and replacing pcoket door all snags are relatively minor items That could have been easliy remedied Interestingly he doesnt mention taking out the pocket door wall, lifting up the floor to move the toilet replacing drains and making new wall      
    • That's great news and thank you for letting us know. I'll amend your thread title. HB
    • Ironically, 2 weeks after no updates the parcel has been located and delivered today!! maybe the Evri system is not as bad as it used to be (for me, at least...). Annoying that I spent 3 hours yesterday brushing up on my consumer legislation, but at least I'm well equipped to handle any more issues going forwards! Apologies to have used up the forum's bandwidth and feel free to mark as "resolved".
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.


      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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GroupNexus ANCR PCN - Petrol Station Roadchef Tibshelf South DE5 5TZ

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1 Date of the infringement  arr 28/03/24 21:00, dep 29/03/24 01.27

2 Date on the NTK  08/04/2024 (Date of Issue)

3 Date received Monday 15/04/24

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012?  Yes

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] No 

7 Who is the parking company? GroupNexus

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Petrol Station Roadchef Tibshelf South DE55 5T

'operating in accordance with the BPA's Code of Practice'


I received a Parking Charge letter to keeper on Monday 15/04/24, the 17th day after the alleged incident.

My understanding is that this is outside the window for notifying.

The issue date was 08/04/2024 which should have been in good time for it to have arrived within the notice period but in fact it actually arrived at lunchtime on the 15th.

Do I have to prove when it arrived  (and if so how can I do that?) or is the onus on them to prove it was delivered in time?

All I can find is that delivery is assumed to be on the second working day after issue which would have been Weds 10/04/24 but it was actually delivered 5 days later than that (thank you Royal Mail!).

My husband was present when it arrived - is a family member witness considered sufficient proof?

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Hi welcome to the Forum. 

If a PCN is sent out late ie after the 12th day of the alleged offence, the charge cannot then be transferred from the driver to the keeper.

The PCN is deemed to have arrived two days after dispatch so in your case, unless you can prove that Nexus sent the PCN several days after they claim you have very little chance of winning that argument.

All is not lost since the majority of PCNs sent out are very poorly worded so that yet again the keeper is not liable to pay the charge, only the driver is now liable. If you post up the PCN, front and back we will be able to confirm whether it is compliant or not.

Even if it is ok, there are lots of other reasons why it is not necessary to pay those rogues. 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to GroupNexus ANCR PCN - Petrol Station Roadchef Tibshelf South DE5 5 T


I'm afraid I've had to hide your post with the pdf files to keep this anonymous for you. You've left the PCN reference number and your car reg showing.

Could you edit that and repost please?




Illegitimi non carborundum




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Hi and thanks

It looks like they ticked all the boxes to me but I'll try and upload the notice.

I was wondering if a witness to late delivery might be considered proof

- I'm assuming they posted it as normal but Royal Mail stuffed up delivery.

If not then they're really saying it just has to be posted within 12 days of the incident, regardless of when it is received. Annoying!

edit ok thanks Honeybee here's my 2nd (actually 3rd) attempt at anonymising, copying and uploading the notice! Sorry about the state of it - I sat on it while distracted by my dog 🙃


2024-04-08 GroupNexus PCN event 2024-03-28.pdf

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Your concern regarding the 14 days delivery is a common one.

Not been on the forum that long, but I don't think the following thought has ever been challenged.

My view is that they should have proof of when it was posted, not when they "issued", or printed it.

Of course, they would never show any proof of postage, unless it went to court.

Private parking companies are simply after money, and will just keep sending ever more threatening letters to intimidate you into paying up.

It's not been mentioned yet, but DO NOT APPEAL! You could inadvertently give up useful legal protection and they will refuse any appeal, because they're just after the cash...


We could do with some help from you.



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Hmm yes I see your point about proof of postage but nonetheless...

"A Notice to Keeper can be served by ordinary post and the Protection of Freedoms Act requires that the Notice, to be valid,  must be delivered either

  1. (Where a notice to driver (parking ticket) has been served) Not earlier than 28 days after, nor more than 56 days after, the service of that notice to driver; or
  2. (Where no notice to driver has been served (e.g ANPR is used)) Not later than 14 days after the vehicle was parked

A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales."

My question there is really what might constitute proof?

Since you say the issue of delivery is a common one I suppose that no satisfactory answer has been established or you would probably have told me.

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2 hours ago, lookinforinfo said:

The PCN is deemed to have arrived two days after dispatch so in your case, unless you can prove that Nexus sent the PCN several days after they claim you have very little chance of winning that argument.

a 'witness' to it not arriving till the 15th is sadly immaterial too.

regardless to the above anyway, the PCN remains valid. 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Unless I've got an incorrect copy of the relevant regulation:

The PCN is only deemed to have arrived two days after dispatch "unless the contrary is proved"

in which case date of delivery does matter (not just date of posting) and I would like clarification of the required standard of proof.

It seems perhaps this hasn't been tested.

Since post is now barcoded for the Post Office's own tracking purposes perhaps there is some way I can get that evidence from the Post Office...

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  • dx100uk changed the title to GroupNexus ANCR PCN - Petrol Station Roadchef Tibshelf South DE5 5TZ

you need to bear-in-mind that these 'regulations' you are reading, are not such, they are only guidelines by their buddies at the IPC (old boys network like the other one - the BPA) they are not LAWS. if members dont abide by them...so what....

Legally, like documents even from a court, (which they give 5 days service on) - 1st class mail, regardless to the postal service/operator used, is deemed as served in 2 days, 2nd class is 5 days regardless. 

now, the fact that the postal service used might be responsible for a delayed delivery in both the above is sadly legally immaterial.

thought it is also, as i believe my fellow members have indicated? , worthy to note the other point broken point of the code of practice is it removes days toward discount.

with the above 2 reasons, should this ever goto court, thats the time to use them. not before. dont play your cards.



please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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The argument about the date of receipt is now dead because the PCN  does not comply with the wording  of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. 

First reason Section 9 [2] [e]  "state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges;"

Second Reason Section 9 [2][a] "specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;"

All your PCN does is mark the time you entered and left the car park. It does not include all the myriad things you do in between-driving into the car park, looking for a parking space-perhaps a disabled space or  parent and Child place@ getting the children or disabled person out of the car then going shopping.

Coming back; loading the car with shopping [, getting the children or disabled into the car, taking the trolley back to the store; driving to the exit perhaps stopping to let vehicles/pedestrians cross in front of you etc. so subtracting the driving times from before and after parking can make quite a difference from their time to the actual period parking time.

So the upshot is now that only the driver is responsible for paying the PCN and the keeper is not liable at all even if the name of the driver is never known by Nexus so well done for not appealing. You obviously want to keep it that way to make it very difficult for them to win in Court if it ever goes that far.

Although your question is now moot since  the same objective has been achieved by the non compliant PCN [ie no keeper liability] just  about the only way to dispute the timing of the PCN would be if one kept the envelope and there was a discernible date stamp on it that did not match the date on the PCN.

There is a new Act coming out [and it cannot come quickly enough ] and one of the things required is that parking companies will have to prove the date of sending out their PCNs. We are not the only ones who sometimes doubt the veracity of their dates particularly as the later it is sent [unlawfully] the shorter the period motorists have to benefit [?] from the reduced payment.

I haven't seen it on your posts but do you know how long you are permitted to park for free?

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Thanks for all the replies - all very helpful.

Sorry for the delay in responding - I forgot my password and managed to get myself locked out, which meant I could read but couldn't reply.

Dx100uk  Thanks for that very clear (and patient) explanation - I completely get that now. Ok so I'll drop that unless we get to court.

Lookinforinfo Good spot on Section 9 [2] [e] (i) - I think you're right they don't actually ask me to pay do they, they only say they have the right to recover the charge from me after 28 days.

Your 2nd point might be less convincing, given the length of time the vehicle was there. Sadly I don't know how long parking is permitted for free. Perhaps someone on here can help with that.

For context so you have the full picture,

the driver entered M1 Tibshelf services not expecting to park at all (and therefore didn't bother to look for parking signs), they were feeling a little funny and thought a coffee might help.

They drove into the petrol station area and pulled up in a parking bay at one side of the pumps and went in to get a take out coffee.

On returning to the vehicle they were suddenly overcome with a violent attack of dizziness and nausea and couldn't stay upright.

After lying flat and unable to move (and feeling extremely cold) for what was apparently some 4 hours they recovered enough to be able to drive on.

The coffee was now stone cold of course which was a very annoying waste of 3.50!

On recovering, the driver looked round without getting out of the van but couldn't see any signs at all near those few bays so mistakenly assumed the petrol station bays didn't have parking charges.

One more question - on other threads people have suggested contacting the land owner to ask them to drop the charge. How would I find out who the landowner is, or perhaps should I write to the manager of the petrol station?

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If the driver was taken ill then there is a legal term called Frustration of Contract - i.e. that it was impossible to respect the contract/overstay times due to illness.

Do you have any proof of this?

From  https://motorwayservices.uk/Tibshelf#google_vignette  there is a free stay period of two hours, after that you have to fork out money.

Yes, contacting the organ grinder is always a good idea.  The CEO of Roadchef is  https://www.ceoemail.com/s.php?id=ceo-77835&c=Roadchef Motorways-CEO  Lay it on thick about the illness, attach any proof, and request they have the invoice cancelled..


We could do with some help from you.


 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

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"Do you have any proof of this?" 

No no proof sadly, only that the vehicle arrived at 9pm and left at 01.27 - and who wants to drive in the middle of he night if they don't have to? I've read that pleading illness hasn't been accepted for appeals. Has Frustration of Contract been accepted in court then?

Thanks for the contact details - how should I handle revealing driver details when I contact him? Do I try to keep the driver anonymous or do I just take the risk and tell all?

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There is a huge difference between Roadchef who presumably have some morals and are concerned about road safety ...

... and Group Nexus who are only interested in £££££.

So, yes, appealing and mentioning illness to Group Nexus won't wash because the PPCs are simply bloodsuckers.

But the organ grinder/Roadchef could well be a different story.  Emphasise the medical emergency, that the person would have been committing the offence of dangerous driving had they left in the condition they were in, etc. 

We say not to out the driver but I think you have to tell Roadchef that the driver was incapacitated and who that was.

To answer your question.  Yes, Frustration of Contract has been argued in court many times, including by Mystic Bertie last week - he won.

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We could do with some help from you.


 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

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The Ceo is  mark.cox@roadchef.com

In addition to frustration of parking you could also claim that had the driver not been ill they would not have stayed. therefore they were not parking as they intended to leave and was only detained by  illness.  it isn't as if they wer shopping, buying petrol or sightseeing-they wanted to go .

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