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    • Thanks for your reply. After you didn't respond to the the paploc, what was their next step? Did they resend the paploc? I feel it's like others have suggested, it's a 'fish' to get someone to respond. Ref the email, I don't think I've ever had one, even when J and P took over with the first round of comms, then I received two within in a few days (both with same info) and a few days later, the J and P paploc. Any guesses what they're thinking changing between J and P to IDR and vice versa?
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    • Hi. @BankFodder should be around later to advise on this, he often deals with this kind of case. As an outsider, it sounds to me as if the client could have changed his mind about what he wanted, once you'd built to the agreed spec. HB
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Caught using mother’s 60+ Oyster card - 50+ uses - SJPN Court

Going to court - TFL fare evasion

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As long as it's true, NB. We don't recommend lying to TfL or the court.

Fwiw, TfL prosecutors aren't easily swayed by tales of woe because they've heard it all many, many times. Best to keep that part fairly short, as Kyosanto says.

HB

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Posted (edited)

Thank you for your comments! Anything else I need to change?

If this is fine then I'll send it off tonight.

Thanks!

 

I write to you today regarding the aforementioned case, and I respectfully request your attention to the following circumstances:

 

Firstly, I acknowledge that my actions were unjustifiable, I want to express my sincere remorse and assure you that I have learned a profound lesson from this experience. The stress and anxiety resulting from this ordeal have significantly impacted my ability to concentrate on my university studies, leading to sleepless nights and a pervasive sense of unease.

 

I can assure you that I have been deeply affected by the repercussions of my actions and am committed to never repeating such behaviour. The magnitude of this offence is something that will stay with me for the rest of my life.

 

Considering these circumstances, I respectfully ask for your deliberation in resolving this matter extrajudicially. I plead with you to find it in your heart to show compassion and understanding.

Since the incident, I have been diligently utilising my personal Oyster card, with card number xxxx.

 

Additionally, I wish to underscore the potential complications a criminal charge could have on my future career prospects post-graduation. The implications of such an outcome are profound and deeply concerning to me. The thought that my actions could jeopardise my future career prospects fills me with serious regret and sorrow.

In light of this, I implore you to consider the extenuating circumstances surrounding my situation and explore the possibility of settling this matter out of court.

 

There are various factors contributing to my actions; my family has been grappling with significant financial strain, intensified by the escalating cost of living. As a result of financial constraints, there are three of us living in a single-bedroom residence.

 

Upon learning of my mother's cancer diagnosis, I was confronted with an added layer of emotional distress. Witnessing her battle with this illness has taken an emotional toll on me, leaving me in a constant state of worry and distress. In an attempt to alleviate some of the financial burden on her and allow her to focus on her recovery, I made the regrettable decision to utilise her oyster card. My intentions were to shield her from further financial worries, but I have come to realise how wrong that was.

 

Thank you for your attention to this matter. I eagerly await your response.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Edited by TiredDodo
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I would move the bit about an extrajudiciary resolution to the end, so it's clear what you're asking. It's up to you but instead of that, I would ask for an out of court settlement to take into account the unpaid fares and their admin expenses.

HB

 

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Thank you all so much for the feedback!! I have sent the email to TFL. I will let you know what they respond with. 

Worst case scenario, if they tell me I still need to go to court, what are my next steps? 

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You would need to send back the form from the court saying if you plead guilty or not guilty if you haven't already done so.

If you plead guilty, you need to think about your mitigation reasons.

Other people may turn up with more suggestions.

HB

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While you're waiting for TfL to reply, I think you said somewhere that you can't do part-time work because you look after your mother. Have you checked that you're getting all the benefits you're entitled to as a family?

Things like Carers Allowance or Attendance Allowance although I don't know how they interact with your mother's existing benefits. 

I can't post links from my phone but there are websites like Turn2us who have a benefit calculator you can use. I think the government do as well. 

If you have other questions once you've tried a calculator, you could start a thread in our Benefits/HMRC forum. 

HB

 

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Going back to TfL, if they do offer you an OOC settlement you will need to pay it off in a lump sum within a couple of weeks. If it goes to court you would be able to agree on affordable monthly payments. 

Don't miss the deadline for sending in your guilty/not guilty plea.

HB

 

 

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re the SJPN court forms... and your reply.

you need to sign for each journey you know is you on that TIC form.

as for the other court sheets

you plead guilty wanting to attend court to show personal remorse face to face to the magistrate on the day. return the forms to the court.

i would copy the court form and inc that also with your new letter via email to TfL.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hello thank you for responses. 

In the meantime I have sent, the physical letter with my guilty statement and the signatures beside the journeys I made, to the court. 


I have also received a reply from that last email I send to TFL, that I let you proofread:

Thank you for your email response.

We acknowledge the comments you have made, however TfL’s decision has not changed in this matter.

You are required to attend the hearing at Lavender Hill Magistrates on 22nd April 2024, and you will have the opportunity at this hearing, to give your mitigation to the court before a decision on your case is made.

Yours sincerely

James Vallis

Prosecutor/Investigator | Investigations Appeals & Prosecutions | Compliance, Policing, Operations & Security

9G3 Palestra, 197 Blackfriars Road London SE1 8NJ | Email: JamesVallis@tfl.gov.uk

This email and the information contained within, including any attachments, is TfL restricted

Looks like they want me to go to court regardless of what I say. 
How can I best prepare for this?
I tend to get very nervous and anxious over things, especially this, and I’m unable to waffle my way through anything.

I have very little confidence in speaking about such things, especially since this is my first time in a court hearing. 
 

Any advice is greatly appreciated. 
Thanks!

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That's a shame but TfL are tough on this kind of thing.

You can continue pleading with TfL right up to the court hearing and even that day if there's a prosecutor present. They may not be though, as it's a SJPN. It can take at least three letters to arrive at an OOC settlement.

In terms of waffling your way through a court hearing, I think I'm right in saying you'll be asked straight questions and expected to give honest answers.

Is there anything you can say to TfL to show it's more likely that you will be able to pay your fares in future? Did you have a think about what I said about benefits you might not be claiming already for your mother? Or could you take a part-time job to have extra money?

HB

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I haven't personally attended a SJPN hearing but TfL's letter does talk about 'mitigation'. If you present yourself looking smartly dressed, give convincing reasons and are respectful then it can reduce the amount of the fine.

I don't think it's a very long hearing but maybe @Grotesque or @Man in the middle know more than I do. I hope if they're about at the moment they'll come onto the thread to advise.

HB

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Thanks HB!
 

Please correct me if I’m wrong, sending TFL emails won’t change the fact I need to go to court in a few weeks but it will demonstrate persistence? That I’m not quick to accept that I am being sent to court?

Here are the answers to your questions:

I am more likely to pay fares because I have a 16-25 railcard linked to my Oyster card, which makes my travel cheaper. 

As far as I know we are claiming all the benefits we can. 

I used to have a part time job but I quit last year to focus on my studies and to take care of my mum.

I don’t think this is worth mentioning to TFL, though I could give this information in court?

Lastly, please forgive my ignorance, but how do you know it’s a SJPN?

Does it mean I won’t get a criminal record? 

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Remind us how many times you've written so far please. We usually say to keep writing but see what dx and Grotesque think.

I mentioned SJPN because it's in your thread title. Isn't that what TfL sent you? I think dx may have altered the thread title and it's true that Lavender Hill has a lot of SJPN hearings. It just means that there is one magistrate instead of three.

You can still get a criminal record from a single justice hearing.

Ref benefits and part-time work I thought it was a way of showing that you're making an effort to have enough income to pay fares in future. Did you check with a welfare rights adviser or an online calculator?

Remember that TfL want to know that you've learned from this experience and won't be fare-dodging in the future and I was just thinking of ways to show that. I hope you're paying the right fares anyway now because you don't want to be caught again.

HB

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on the court form you pleaded guilty wishing to appear in person? RE:

 

On 28/03/2024 at 13:58, dx100uk said:

you plead guilty wanting to attend court to show personal remorse face to face to the magistrate on the day. return the forms to the court.

i would copy the court form and inc that also with your new letter via email to TfL.

did you also sent a copy to TfL with your last begging letter they've just replied to? 

you wont be questioned in court as you've pleaded guilty on the forms.

you are attending to show personal remorse infront of the judge face to face, 

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I wrote 3 emails to TFL:

the initial email stating that I’m guilty.

The second one asking whether I can get an OOC settlement.

And the third one which you proofread.

In the physical letter I posted to the court I included all 3 emails I send plus the responses from TFL.

I’ll write another email to TFL about living off my mother’s benefits? 

Only once my final exams are over, then I can look for a job, depending on how my mum is. Also my mum will be getting another operation so I’ll need to be in the house to help her.

Finally, how am I supposed to show remorse?

I already emailed saying how sorry I am and how it has impacted me.

There’s not much more I can say about that. 

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If TfL already know that you are living off your mother's benefits I'm not sure what difference it makes to tell them again. I thought you might have been able to find ways of having more income that would help your case.

Maybe we can figure out some kind of wording that doesn't make it all about the effect on you. To be brutally honest, TfL aren't too concerned about that, they just want to know you won't evade your fare again because the consequences of doing that have changed your attitude. They're worried about the effect on TfL's finances and want people to follow the rules.

If you do email them again we could think about telling them that you understand who pays for 60+ passes [you can check that online] and how you realise that you shouldn't have used it.

I think the point of showing remorse was meant more for the magistrate/s on the day.

I'll post again when I've had a think about this.

HB

 

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To be clear, what you will be attending is not a "Single Justice" court. Nobody can attend a SJ hearing.

I haven't read all of this but I assume at some point you returned the Single Justice Procedure Notice pleading guilty and asking to attend court. This means your case is now not being handled under the SJ procedure and instead will be heard in the normal Magistrates' court.

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Thanks everyone for your help. I really appreciate it
 

Thank you MitM,

in the first letter I received I got the option to select guilty or not.

Obviously I am guilty so I sent that back to them.

I didn’t get the option not to attend court.

That’s why I was very surprised when I got the letter from TFL saying I need to attend court. 

Do you know how a normal Magistrates' court works for TFL or have a rough idea how it’s conducted? 

This is the letter I would like to send to TFL to try to convince them to have an OOC settlement, please let me know if I need to change anything:

With reference to my latest email dated 26/03/24. 

Once more, I would like to assure you that I will not engage in fare evasion again.

I am aware that the 60+ Oyster card is funded by TFL and is intended for specific eligible individuals. I acknowledge that I made an error by using the 60+ Oyster card. Since the incident, I have exclusively been using my own Oyster card for fare payments. Additionally, I have a railcard linked to my Oyster card enabling me to pay fares legitimately at a cheaper rate. 

This ordeal has impacted my mental well-being, resulting in me constantly feeling stressed and anxious as well as being unable to have a restful sleep. Therefore affecting my concentration, which is putting me at a disadvantage for the upcoming exams. 

I sincerely hope that you will consider this matter out of court. 

 

Yours sincerely,

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you appear to be getting confused.

the 1st letter from TfL mentions nothing directly about court, TfL are not a court.

they might state this may end up in court but the 1st letter is simply wanting your version of events. you stated you were guitly.

you latterly received documents regarding a SJPN court, these don't come from TfL. RE:

On 03/04/2024 at 15:19, TiredDodo said:

In the meantime I have sent, the physical letter with my guilty statement and the signatures beside the journeys I made, to the court. 

you THEN heard from TfL stating as you had done the above stating you with to appear in person a hearing has been arranged for....22/04/2024

On 03/04/2024 at 15:19, TiredDodo said:

You are required to attend the hearing at Lavender Hill Magistrates on 22nd April 2024,

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I hope others will comment on your letter, I'm wondering about the part where you mention your exams. They could say that you can resit exams or also that this is self-inflicted.

Normally people talk about the effect on their job prospects and future career.

Just a thought.

HB

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HB this is the latest response (03/04/24) to the letter I had you look over. 

Thanks, in my new email to TFL I’ll remove the bit about my exams. 

thanks dx, yes I thought TFL and court were related. 

just to be clear, the emails I have been sending to TFL do not get seen, and have nothing to do with the court?

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just type no need to KEEP hitting quote. 

if you didn't send copies of 'something' to the court, then the judge wont have them to read, unless TfL place them in his 'bundle' for the case.

lets just get this CLEAR in your head...so you understand correctly.

you are ONLY going before the magistrate to show YOUR PERSONAL remorse face to face for the actions you took and have already pleaded guilty too. your guilt is not in question. you've ADMITTED the charges.

it's not to question you upon anything to do with the charges at all or to Fine you more or less .

it's in the hope that you don't get a criminal record recorded against your name. 

we've seen judges in the past allow this..simply pay the fines etc game over no record.

now as HB has already indicated earlier here...

......there is nothing to stop YOU on the day, seeking out the TfL prosecutor and apologising directly face to face to them, before the hearing takes place to please grant an Out Of Court settlement. That again HAS HAPPENED. just take enough CASH with you to pay immediately on the day eitherway. you know the total to pay already from the court documents you have.

there is nothing to stop the TfL prosecutor, should you go before the judge, outlining your emails to them, which is not a bad thing!!.

 

did you send a copy of your completed court forms to TfL with any of your begging emails? to show you've admitted and fessed up guilty as i advised before?

dx 

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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If you haven't sent off your email to TfL, I realise what confused me about the beginning of your latest message and the dates. You would normally start a letter by referring to his email to you.

'With reference to my latest email dated 26/03/24.'

You could start it 'With reference to my email of 26th March 2024 and your reply of 3rd April.'

HB

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