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    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
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      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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ECP PCN Rental Car - paid by app - no receipt - appeal refused - Mayfair - Achilles Way


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I am surprised that they are pursuing your brother when he would no have been the name of the hirer supplied by the hire company. With PoFA and hire vehicles, only the hirer is liable regardless of who was driving. And the hirer is not liable in this case because ECP failed to comply with PoFA

Did your brother say he was the hirer or the driver for instance or say something else in his appeal that confused ECP. That isn't hard to do of course.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey @lookinforinfo I'm not sure, I don't believe he told them he's the driver. He must have selected an option saying that he's appealing on behalf of the driver or something of the sort.

In more news, however, these wannabe thugs are back at it again. Honestly, what a joke.

In the letter they sent before this it said they had made "2 attempts" and in this letter they said "4 attempts", I wonder what happened to the "3rd attempt" lol. 

WhatsApp Image 2024-04-18 at 14.06.07_44abc9c8.pdf

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I doubt very much that a parking company will allow "on behalf of" appeals and he may have clicked on something saying he was the driver.

I did ask upthread -

On 26/02/2024 at 16:18, FTMDave said:

ECP will however continue to hassle someone.  Are you comfortable with that person being your brother?

Euro Car Parks aren't very litigious and it is likely that the threats will eventually peter out.

However, are you all happy with an 18-year-old being hassled and, if the matter ever did by some horror get to court, probably being considered a liar by the judge for saying he was the driver when he wasn't?

It is of course up to the people concerned how to deal with this.

I think it would be a hell of a lot better if the hirer manned up and contacted ECP and removed your brother form the loop.

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We could do with some help from you.

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I'm not sure what the "appeal" system asked but he said he definitely didn't indicate he was the driver so I'm just going to have to take his word for it.

Honestly, I don't think the hirer will contact them. I think my brother will tolerate it. I did have a similar experience with another company 6-7 years ago and sought advice on here then to which you guys told me to ignore, I got the exact same DRP letters and then a "Gladstones Solicitor" letter. 

After that nothing happened and it died away. Based on my experience with that I assumed the same would happen here but only asked to see if perhaps anything had changed since then. 
 

Hopefully it doesn't get to court but if it did, I feel like we have enough evidence to sway a judge who probably hates dealing with this type of nonsense anyway. Or maybe I'm too optimistic. 

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Based on ECP's previous, what will definitely happen is this.

They will send more idiotic letters.

After they will send a Letter of Claim, and it is essential that your brother replies at this point to this to show them he would be big trouble in court.

Next it is highly likely (but not certain) that they will crawl back under their stone and that will be the end of the matter.

The slight worry is that if they do do court it will seem a likely story to a judge that your brother has no connection to the ticket, when it was him who appealed and replied to the Letter of Claim.  Indeed I think it would seem the lot of you were playing games with ECP and with the court by getting unconnected people involved and then later deny they were involved.

So be aware there is that slight risk.

You talked about "a mess" in your first post, and you weren't wrong.

Someone hires a car and gets a ticket.  There is an appeal.  Who appeals, the hirer?  No, the hirer's mate's son.  Obvious!

There is an approach for help to a consumer website.  By the hirer?  No, by the hirer's mate's son's brother!

This is so damn silly and totally avoidable.

Anyway, it seems the decision has been made for your brother to carry the can so whatever consequences will ensue will ensue. 

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

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I don't think it's quite as bad as that Dave. I seem to remember the brother has no driving licence?

So any snotty letter would be a real doozy!

And if they pursue it further after that, they would look extremely foolish... As long as the brother definitely didn't appeal as the driver, of course. 

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

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Posted (edited)

It would be a very good idea for the brother to SAR Euro Car Parks.

It can't do any harm and at least will reveal what was written in the appeal.

Get that done today/tomorrow, invest in a 2nd class stamp and get a free Certificate of Posting from the post office.  He'll have to stick in some ID otherwise ECP will use lack of ID as an excuse not to cooperate.

Edited by FTMDave
Typo

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

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Perfect, thanks Dave.
 

You're right, a whole dodo storm this has been. As sons of first-generation immigrant parents, whenever something like this happens the old man panics. There was a whole "appeal this now" because my dad paid for the parking as he was with the hirer at the time and he isn't as tech-savvy as my brother so he ended up doing what he did and because I don't live there anymore it came all the way down to this. 

But yes, we'll do this SAR and see what comes of it. 

Will keep posting here with the hopes that it may benefit someone in the future. 

Thanks again, everyone. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

On the recommendation of Dave, I took the SAR template from CAG and scanned it over and adjusted the information relevant to this matter and sent it to my brother to print, sign and send. 

He signed it with the same signature he has on his provisional licence and he scanned and printed a copy of his provisional licence to prove identity/address.

Sent that tracked and then they responded with the most generic letter I've seen.

Clearly, they've anticipated people might do this and came up with nonsense.

They want proof of ID when we already sent proof of ID. Surely they're digging themselves a ditch at this point? 

 

2024-04-24 ECP SAR reply.pdf

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Yes, they are digging themselves into a ditch, with regard to people like you who fight back.

Remember that, sadly, the vast majority of motorists who get these tickets think they are fines, that companies like ECP have some sort of official status, and give in and pay.

They are just putting barriers in your way and encouraging you to fold.

How about this as a reply -

Dear ECP,

Re: Subject Access Request
PCN no.XXXXX

I refer to my Subject Access Request dated XXXXX and received by yourselves on XXXXX.

Thank you for your bizarre letter of 23 April.  Your letter requests Photo ID - which I have already sent to you.  The letter also requests proof of ownership of the vehicle - this is impossible to produce as the vehicle in question was on hire.

In any case requests for proof of ownership are silly given your PCNs invite registered keepers to nominate drivers who do not own vehicles.

I note all this concern for correct identity was absent when you decided to send letters threatening me with all & sundry if I didn't pay you money!

The SAR was received on XXXXX.  I have already sent Photo ID.  The clock is ticking.  I am well aware that I would have the right to complain to the ICO and to sue you for not respecting your statutory duty should you not respect the 30-day deadline.

Tick, tock.

Yours, XXXXX

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We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

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Although this situation is mildly disturbing like a fly trapped behind the curtain on a warm day, your creative responses are always a joy to read, Dave.

Cheers.

Will send across. 

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