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    • Which Court have you received the claim from ? Civil national business centre, Northampton       If possible please scan redact and upload a full page copy of page 1 of the claim form. (not the response page or AOS)     Name of the Claimant ? PRA group uk portfolios ltd   How many defendant's  joint or self ? self   Date of issue – top right hand corner of the claim form – this in order to establish the time line you need to adhere to. 14 june 2024   ^^^^^ NOTE : WHEN CALCULATING THE TIMELINE - PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THE DATE ON THE CLAIMFORM IS ONE IN THE COUNT [example: Issue date 01.03.2014 + 19 days (5 days for service + 14 days to acknowledge) = 19.03.2014 + 14 days to submit defence = 02.04.2014] = 33 days in total   Date of issue XX + 19 days ( 5 day for service + 14 days to acknowledge) = XX + 14 days to submit defence = XX (33 days in total)  if your defence filing date falls on a W/End, you must file by friday @4PM     Particulars of Claim   What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim? Please type out their particulars of claim in full (verbatim) less any identifiable data and round the amounts up/down. state how many digits the account number has.. The claimant claims the sum of £6823 for an outstanding debt owed. On 29/8/2013 the defendant entered into an agreement with Barclays Bank UK for a credt card under ref *********. On 22/3/21 the defendant defaulted the agreement with an outstanding balance of £7074. On 26/7.22 the debt of £6937 was assigned to PRA Group lts who itself assigned the debt to PRA group UK portfolios ltd on 30/12/23. Notices of assignement were sent to the defendant in accordance with S136 Law and Propert act 1925. The claimant has instructed PRA group UK ltd to act on its behalf in the recovery of the outstanding debt and to pursue litigation on its behalf. Payments of £103 were recieved up to 5/12/23 and adjustments have been applied in the sum of £10, and the claimant claims 1. The sum of £6823.88   What is the total value of the claim? £7378.88   Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? yes   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? no   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? n/a Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? credit card   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? after   Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? don't recall, likely online   Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ?yes   Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. assigned to purchaser   Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? yes   Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? don't recall   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? yes   Why did you cease payments? account was marked unenforcable by PRA due to lack of cca   What was the date of your last payment? december 23   Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? no   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? yes  
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    • Thanks for your reply. After you didn't respond to the the paploc, what was their next step? Did they resend the paploc? I feel it's like others have suggested, it's a 'fish' to get someone to respond. Ref the email, I don't think I've ever had one, even when J and P took over with the first round of comms, then I received two within in a few days (both with same info) and a few days later, the J and P paploc. Any guesses what they're thinking changing between J and P to IDR and vice versa?
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    • Hi. @BankFodder should be around later to advise on this, he often deals with this kind of case. As an outsider, it sounds to me as if the client could have changed his mind about what he wanted, once you'd built to the agreed spec. HB
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Licensed breeder Puppy farm & genetically sick pups.***Settled***


Lesley A

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I am aware of the courts potential decisions. My main aim is to recoup my losses. If and when the animal begins to suffer, I will make the necessary decisions then and no one will dictate when I should be doing so. I did not buy a dog for 'cute looks' that cause them pain like a pug etc. I purchased a normal spaniel for temperament and nature.

This forum is priceless and I appreciate the help.

The required surgery is a full fix and cheaper than maintaining him without it given the meds he will need.

A comment about other dogs not being good enough is not necessary. My claim is about this dog.

I have spent a lot of money on this dog, merely finding out what is wrong as it was not declared by the breeder in full. 

I am able to talk and deal with Judges, solicitors or anyone else I need to, at what ever level - I can communicate without issues orally.

Its written work and structuring that I struggle with.

Please can you explain where and how I can improve the document.

What is a cause of action please? Do I need to delete anything or am I adding the cause of action to the document as it stands. 

When my previous copy highlighted how the breeder breached her obligations, you said those issues were not recoverable so not necessary. I explained their presence by showing how it goes to showing her character, professionalism and attitudes to her obligations.

Exactly what do I need to do to make this document correct please and where do I place it. I am not being made aware of exactly what is missing or what needs to be removed etc.

Lesley

 

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The cause of action in your case would be a breach of contract.

The contract would be whatever is written in the agreement between you – and also terms which might be implied either because it represents the reasonable expectations of both parties or because there are outside regulations such as possibly breeding rules or licence rules et cetera that are automatically incorporated into a contract for an animal. You will know this better than we do.

Why don't you start off by assembling all the bills you have incurred so far and also the professional opinions and quotations of veterinary experts.

How many pages as that run to – before I asked you to post it up in PDF format

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Thank you.

I have tried again. Please re assess the document. 

I have all receipts for the costs made and prognosis reports.

I have also included the cost of another pet as a resolution of the judges opinion goes that way. When I called the courts for advice about claiming for his surgery although I had not yet paid for it, they said simply ask the judge what you want to but it has to be asked now, in the N1 form. I have now included it. 

The surgery is cheaper than his care without surgery and he has a right to live pain free - the judge may see that. I lose nothing by asking.

Jax N1 statement copy.docxJax N1 statement copy.docxJax N1 statement copy.docxJax N1 statement copy.docxJax N1 statement copy.docxJax N1 statement copy.docxJax N1 statement copy.docxJax N1 statement copy.docxJax N1 statement copy.docxJax N1 statement copy.docx

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every paragraph.

It should start off:

  1. the claimant agreed to buy a XXX animal from XXX defendant, a professional breeder for £XXX
  2. The defendant is a licensed breeder – licensed by XXX organisation and therefore as a condition of the licence, has agreed to abide by XXX rules.
  3. The claimant relied on the fact that the defendant was a licensed breeder and relied on the fact that the XXX rules would be respected by the defendant.
  4. Blah blah blah
  5. the defendant breached the terms of the contract in that she failed to observe the licensing rules and failed to conduct her breeding operation in compliance with the rules and failed to conduct the sale in compliance with those rules.
  6. Blah blah blah

and so on

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Thank you - that was helpful. Thank you.

I have not deleted the chronology but now the section previously called the Cause of Action has been implemented into the document.

Should I delete the chronology.

numbers 3 & 6 have bullet points relating to the topic within that number. Is that ok or should I give the bullet points there own number.

I basically tried to loosely structure them under her licensing breaches then the Sales Of Goods Act breaches.

Appreciated.

 

 

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Started off well but then you reverted to generalisations .

You should particularize the breaches :

 Failed to do xxx contrary to the requirements of licence paragraph X sub paragraph y

Failed to do ZZ country to the requirements of licence paragraph z sub paragraph w

Etc

These should all be sub paragraphs

For instance

Paragraph 3A

Paragraph 3B

3c

3D

Etc

The paragraph letters should be in lowercase

 

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Thank you for that info. As a result I have literally gone through the whole license, identified the sections she breached in my situation, listed the rule for the courts ease and used the license numbers where applicable for easier reference. I have then highlighted how she breached that regulations and consumer law. By doing so, it has made it a much bigger document. i really hope this is getting there.

Fingers crossed!

Jax N1 statement cag.pdf

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I will have a look at it later on today.

Although I am certain it is tedious, this close analysis will be necessary for the conduct of a successful court case and it also probably helps you to focus and to understand the relevant issues

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Thank you.  
it has certainly helped me focus. 
Until I went through every regulation of that license, I had no idea how many breaches had occurred.  
I niw think it’s essential if anyone wants to go down the claim avenue I think.  

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I've made a start – but although it's a lot better, it's hugely rambling. You make assertions about what she knew and what she didn't know and are not sure that you have evidence of this. You keep on referring to the sale of goods act – wrong. It's the consumer rights act.

Start dealing with some of the modifications I have made and have a look at it generally. Start making it factual and stop guessing at what she knows and what she doesn't know – unless you have got clear evidence – which are not sure that you have.

If you don't stop rambling and guessing, then you will lose credibility and you will simply lose the case

Jax N1 statement cag (1).pdf

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Ok thank you.

I have amended the 'she knew'' comments. As I explained weeks ago, I initially contracted trading standard for help as i was not aware of this forum.  Any remaining I have proof of.

They said if it came to court, I would have to prove that she may have had reasonable knowledge sick pups could be bred. 

That's why I mention it twice where applicable. 

I have also found similar stories on the justanswer website where a solicitor involved has stated that a breeder should not sell a dog with a serious heart condition unless you are aware. a grade 3 is not serious. My pup's rare deformity is serious! She either knew and it is on the vet report she will not release or she had no idea because she failed to screen having been told the was a cardiac issue to assess the severity for sale purposes and full transparency. 

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You say that you found similar stories on a website where a solicitor expressed an opinion which is helpful to you. That's fine – but it is in direct evidence that your breeder had any more knowledge than they let on.

I still don't know how you are going to prove that she had knowledge of the sick pup – and everything else that you are saying. You certainly haven't produced any evidence here.

However, we are the people you need to convince. It is a judge who you will need to convince and what I have seen so far of your case, I think you will have a hard job.

Anyway, please post up your latest version of your particulars of claim

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Ok thank you.

I have amended the 'she knew'' comments. As I explained weeks ago, I initially contracted trading standard for help as i was not aware of this forum.  Any remaining I have proof of.

They said if it came to court, I would have to prove that she may have had reasonable knowledge sick pups could be bred. 

That's why I mention it twice where applicable. 

I have also found similar stories on the justanswer website where a solicitor involved has stated that a breeder should not sell a dog with a serious heart condition unless you are aware. a grade 3 is not serious. My pup's rare deformity is serious! She either knew and it is on the vet report she will not release or she had no idea because she failed to screen having been told the was a cardiac issue to assess the severity for sale purposes and full transparency. 

Jax N1 statement cag.pdf

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I could reduce it either by:

reducing all chronology to simply stated multiple issues related to the pups health occurred from the day i purchased him to date and those issues are detailed on vet reports.

If I do that, I think it will annoy the reading party as they will need to keep flicking through the vet reports. Its surely easier to read the chronology and it provides the background knowledge of the events.

and/ or

delete parts of the licensing law that do  not relate. I included them because of that section applying but in some cases not the whole section would apply.

It did not feel ok to only include some bits and delete others in-case that discredited me - they could of say I was including only sections of the license that fit my narrative.

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Hi 

I had attempted to updoad the updated version of the PoC. I presumed it had until I checked in for a response.

There is defo an error with me uploading that version for some reason so i have renamed the document and appears to be fine now.

Jax N1 statement cag.pdfJax N1 statement cag.pdf

Jax PoC Cag final.pdf

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You seem to have uploaded two documents but the first one won't open. Is that the one you are referring to?

As the second one meant to be a particulars of claim?

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Hi. 
Yes. I am not sure why it wouldn’t upload today or previously. 
The second is the revised version inc the amendments you previously suggested.  
it’s just been given a different name until it’s perfected.  It is the PoC still.  

 

Should I contact the breeder one last time with a final opportunity to resolve out if court? 
Should I notify her of the claim commencing.  
I believe she may have tried to write to me. 
I received a Royal Mail card informing me of an outstanding charge of £1.50 that I had to pay to receive the letter as the sender had not paid the relevant postal fees.  
As I was ill with covid and not expecting mail by anyone I could not collect it within the time frame on the card.  
I know of no professional organisation that would post a letter to me and charge me for it, 

Nor would anyone personal to me be writing. 
I believe it wAs the breeder but do not know.  She never text me to notify me of post or anything.  ?? 
 

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The particulars of claim needs a substantial modification.

Please monitor the thread for a reply later on this afternoon

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You should understand that the court is only able to award you damages. They will not be able to make the orders that you seek. That would have to be a separate process which would be complicated and expensive.

Also, don't forget that when you bought the animal you bought it to a certain extent "as is"– in other words you did not ask for an you were provided with various bits of evidence – certificates et cetera.
You saw the animal apparently frightened in its cage – yet you still bought it.
In other words, all of those defects which you witness to the time before you bought it become part of the contract and could be sent to be implied terms in the contract and you accepted them for the price that you paid.

This means that you would have difficulty claiming that there was a contractual breach and to a certain extent you bought the animal with your eyes open.
I agree that the seriousness of the illness seem to be misrepresented to you and this could be a breach of contract but you need to go through your entire buying experience and identify the areas that were clear to you and which were obvious when you bought the animal because it is likely that they will be considered to be part of the contract.
You are entitled to buy goods of a satisfactory condition subject to defects which were pointed out to you or which were reasonably obvious to you on the basis of any inspection that you carried out.
Obviously you are not a vet so you wouldn't be expected to carry out a professional inspection or a medical inspection – but various things must come to your eye including the fact that the animal did not seem to be least trained, the fact that was slightly come out of its cage and that it defecated on its bedding et cetera.
I doubt whether you will be able to have for future costs although if in the future you incur costs, then you might to go back and have for reimbursement of them and that might be a better idea.
You really are asking the court for far too much here. This doesn't mean in terms of the amount of money you're seeking. This means that you are asking for too much in terms of what the court is empowered to do in the circumstances.

You would be much better off attempting to cover your immediate costs/expenses based on identifiable and verifiable breaches of contract and then go on to have for further losses as they become appear apparent.

You can't claim 10% interest. The maximum is 8% which in fact is pretty good by today's standards. What you mean by a "Penalty Notice Order"? I've never heard of one. Where have you found this?

I'm not sure that such a thing exists and I am certain that the court would not be able to make the order in the kind of claim that you are bringing.

Quote

JUDUCIAL REMEDY I SEEK: As per consumer Law, I seek an order that includes:
- That the breeder is liable to for the full cost of vet care required by this dog for life regardless of what the vet
care he needs in rela􀆟on to cardiac, clo􀆫ng and ear care.
- Is forced to disclose the medical records for the pup and parents so I can obtain a more accurate picture of
what I face.
- Full costs of all vet bills that I have paid to date for Jax.
- A Full refund of all costs listed , and the cost of another KC registered, fully gene􀆟cally tested King Charles
Spaniel pup cos􀆟ng approximately £2K for a replacement item.
I am suing for breach of contract and breaching my consumer rights.
AND,
In the alterna􀆟ve, for fraud and misrepresenta􀆟on of the breeder.
AND
- I also ask the Court to consider not just my financial loss for the vet bills and cost of the pup but the financial
burden for immediately needed but future costs of £8,000.00 and order the breeder to pay this the vets
directly. This may be an unusual request as I have not yet lost that money. However, I was hoping the breeder
would be forced to pay these costs as vets have confirmed the surgeries are needed and urgent.
Such surgeries would allow the animal to live a symptomless normal life and be free of constant ear pain. The
ear surgery cannot be addressed un􀆟l they have corrected his faulty heart due to the risks associated with a
GA. If it becomes urgent and was done prior to the surgery, greater costs would be incurred due to the
addi􀆟onal care needed with GA’s and post-surgical care/meds.
Or
- make such an order that allows me 􀆟me to return to court for the cost of that £8,000.00 when and if I am
able to pay for such care within a 3 year period for this aspect of the claim.
IN ADDITTION, I SEEK THE FOLLOWING COSTS IN RELATION TO FURTHER COSTS FOR:
- all costs incurred as a result of this order/hearing for me and the court be met by the defendant.
-that 10% interest is charged on the compensa􀆟on award backdated from 18,5,23 when she was first contacted
for help. Given her obstruc􀆟ve a􀆫tude, failure to take responsibility for the care of a pup she bred and failing
to engage in an out of court remedy, she should receive puni􀆟ve consequences. She had forced me to waste
the courts 􀆟me instead of simply adhering to her responsibili􀆟es as a Licensed Breeder and responsible trader
and should pay for that.
BREAKDOWN AND TOTAL AMOUNT.
Vet bills to date: £2,035.00
􀆩the10 | P a g e
Purchase price £ 550.00
Cost of a healthy replacement item based on market value £2.500.00
TOTAL £5085.00
INTEREST – charged at 10% as a puni􀆟ve measure for breaches and refusal to engage in
resolu􀆟on to avoid court ac􀆟on.
Backdated to 18.5.23 when the breeder received no􀆟ce of
the health issues related to the pup.
I would also ask the court to consider a Penalty No􀆟ce Order being put in place as this
defendant is obstruc􀆟ve and resistant to taking responsibility. I fully expect there to be an
issue with none payment of any award and rather than then go through a further, stressful
court applica􀆟on for a Penalty No􀆟ce Order for none payment later down the line.

 

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I take note of your comments of what I 'saw' and agreed to on the day. EG evident fear of the pup etc.. 

However, his behaviour and responses on the day are not conclusive and concrete evidence that she had breached her license.

I did not know he was not toilet trained. When asked, the breeder stated he was.

I highlighted the fear. She explained he was in a strange environment as the house was freshly built with logs. I knew that was true by its appearance and smell of the wood. 

She also explained he was in the presence of strangers. Many pups of that age take time to gather confidence in a strange house with strangers present. None of this was concrete evidence of a breach in her obligations.

Confidence is built over time with training and saw nothing that indicated this pup had not been socialised. 

As I sat and spent time fussing him, he engaged willingly. He was not aggressive.

I agreed to buy a pup with a non life impacting grade 3 murmur but got nothing of the sort. This was the only applicable agreement I made.

His behaviour and responses on the day do not prove I had concrete evidence of all breaches outlined in the document.

I have made the necessary deletions you have highlighted in red.

Is this now ready to go? Do I need to contact the breeder once more highlighting the last opportunity to engage?

Do you want me to upload the relevant doc showing deletions now?

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Yes, please upload the latest version.

Yes I think that when it is ready you will be best off sending a copy to the breeder together with a request for comment and a deadline by which will take the legal action.

If I haven't made it clear already – I do so now: I think your chances of success on this are remote. If you limited your claim to absolutely verifiable claims with empirical evidence then you would stand a reasonable chance.
However you seem determined and I think that we have spent more than enough time on this.

Of course we will be pleased if you succeed but it seems unlikely to me.

I suggest that before you send off a final version to the breeder – and then click it through to a claim, that you start assembling a court bundle.

Follow our court bundle link. Although you would do this much later on, I think it would be a very good exercise for you to assemble all of the material you have – all of the evidence, put it in order with the index sheet – exactly as I have described in the court bundle link.

Maybe you will get a more developed idea of what will work and what will not work and that will help you refine your ideas.

You will need the court bundle anyway because this will definitely go to trial. I would be amazed if the breeder takes much notice of you and I will be even more amazed if the breeder makes any kind of offer to settle – and certainly no offer that is going to satisfy you based on what you have been writing so far this thread

 

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If you limited your claim to absolutely verifiable claims with empirical evidence then you would stand a reasonable chance.

Please explain how to do this.  What am I doing wrong? what would you delete/add. I am evidently struggling to understand.

Yes time has been spent but his helps others. i want to get it right.

Re breeder contact: Do I send any documents or merely a message stating she has 7 days to respond with a comment?

May I upload the actual N1 upon completion to check I have completed it correctly please.

Jax PoC Cag final.pdf

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