bt and moorcroft

[albbyswife]

hello after reading a few of the posts i am still a little confused

lwith bt for a while until change of job ect, etc and so couldnt afford to pay my bill and so it was passed on to moorcroft after ignoring a couple of letter ( naughty me!!!! ) i have now got a moorcroft collector knocking on for the money the ammount moorcroft are collecting is £507 and i pay them £5 a week the problem i have now is i have found a bt bill with the sum of £406 and at the side of this bill it says that this is my final bill and that any charges from previous bill s is included upto the closing date of account

 

and so i am wondering where moorcroft have got this figure of £507?????? I dont really know what my rights are i have read that i need to send a SAR request but who do i send it too???is it BT or Moorcroft??????

is the SAR request the same as a DPA letter???

 

can someone please help me!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mutzi]

Hi, I think there are two issues you need to look into. Firstly, did BT add any late payment charges (or similar) to the original bill? These can be claimed back in the same way as bank charges. If you don't know or don't have an accurate figure for this the first step would be to send a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to BT, which as you said is the data protection act letter.

 

Secondly, moorcroft adding on their own charges. This is slightly different. The OFT pubished this in 2003:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/50F06527-9FC5-4610-B385-999D6E2A8950/0/oft664.pdf which states

Charging for debt collection

2.9 Charges should not be levied unfairly.

2.10 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

a. claiming collection costs from a debtor in the absence of express

contractual or other legal provision

b. misleading debtors into believing they are legally liable to pay

collection charges when this is not the case, for example, when there

is no contractual provision

c. not giving an indication in credit agreements of the amount of any

charges payable on default

d. applying unreasonable charges, for example, charges not based on actual

and necessary costs

e. applying charges which are disproportionate to the main debt.

 

The short answer is you have no contract with moorcroft so pretty much all of the above applies. These are just guidelines but the law does back them up. Your easiest first step might be to write to them, firmly state that they should remove any such charges from you account and quote from the above, if they do not you will report them to the OFT, trading standards and anyone else you can think of . You shouldn't have to send a sar to them for this as you know the exact amount they've added on at £101. They will probably reply refunding the charges as 'goodwill'. Debt collectors don't seem to have the stomach to argue like the banks. If they don't your other option is to simply stop paying after you've reached the original amount, there is not much they can do about it.

[albbyswife]

hi again

reading last post, so i write to bt asking for dpa statements and with moorcroft, should i ask for a breakdown af account first to see what the ammount was when they first recieved this debt and also the ammount i have paid since? or should i just wait for the statements from bt first???

i am really sorry for sounding stupid!!!!!!

[Peterbard]

Ring moorcroft and remind them that under the OFT rules and directionsFinal guidance on unfair business practices July 2003 (updated December 2006) 2.1(e)guidlines. They are required to produce."debtors or creditors with information on status of debts, for example, providing requested balance itemised statements when reasonably requested , ".

And you will not discuss the matter further untill you have recieved this information and if they continue to persue you before providing them with this you will make complaint to the OFT. Follow this up with a hard copy and send it recorded.

 

Hope this helps

Peter

[albbyswife]

update

i have just phoned bt who confirmed that moorcroft has bought the debt of them and that the final bill from bt was definatly £406 and so i know definatly that moorcroft has added £101 pounds to my debt so know do i write a letter to moorcroft asking them for my SAR request , what else should i do or need to do??????????

 

anybody with any advice please on my next stage!!!!!! thanks

[Peterbard]

These are he most recent guidlines issued by the Office of fair trading.Failure of the DCA to adhere to these could result in in a fine or even restriction or loss of licence.

The fee stated clearly contradicts section d and e contact trading standards with a view to making a complaint to the OFT. Meanwhile write to Moorcroft and tell them that the account is in dispute because the charges are disproportianate as below.

 

Final guidance on unfair business practices

 

July 2003 (updated December 2006)

 

OFT664

 

 

2.9 Charges should not be levied unfairly.

2.10 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

a. claiming collection costs from a debtor in the absence of express

contractual or other legal provision

b. misleading debtors into believing they are legally liable to pay

collection charges when this is not the case, for example, when there

is no contractual provision

c. not giving an indication in credit agreements of the amount of any

charges payable on default

d. applying unreasonable charges, for example, charges not based on actual

and necessary costs

e. applying charges which are disproportionate to the main debt.

Office of Fair Trading

[albbyswife]

I have wrote a letter to dca (moorcroft) about disputing the ammount

 

can anybaody please check this to see if i have included all the right information please

 

 

 

 

 

Moorcroft group

PO Box 17

2 Spring Gardens

Stockport

Cheshire

SK1 4AJ

21st December 2006

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

MOORCROFT REF ACCOUNT NUMBER: 005

CUSTOMER ACCOUNT REF: MR 1234 BT

DISPUTE AMMOUNT OF DEBT OF £507.43

I am writing to inform The Moorcroft group, that I am disputing the amount of debt with the above account, the reason for putting this account into dispute are because I believe the charges are disproportionate under the OFT rules and directions Final guidance on unfair business practices July 2003 (updated December 2006) 2.1guidlines.

 

Final guidance on unfair business practices

 

July 2003 (updated December 2006)

 

OFT664

 

 

2.9 Charges should not be levied unfairly.

2.10 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

a. claiming collection costs from a debtor in the absence of express

contractual or other legal provision

b. misleading debtors into believing they are legally liable to pay

collection charges when this is not the case, for example, when there

is no contractual provision

c. not giving an indication in credit agreements of the amount of any

charges payable on default

d. applying unreasonable charges, for example, charges not based on actual

and necessary costs

e. applying charges which are disproportionate to the main debt.

Office of Fair Trading

Also I wish for Moorcroft Group to supply myself with information on status of debt, for example, providing myself with a requested balance itemised statement or statements, which include dates, interest added, charges and payments,etc recieved from when Moorcroft Group, first bought the debt from BT Plc plus all other relivent information regarding this account.

I will not discuss the matter further nor will payments be made, until i have recieved this information and if Moorcroft Group continue to persue myself before providing them with this information, I will make a complaint to the OFT.

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

is this letter Ok do i need to add anything else??????

I would like to send this letter today if possible as the moorcroft collector is due tonight and i would like to hand a copy of this letter to him as to stop him calling until this matter has been solved

 

thanks

[Peterbard]

Looks fine to me keep a copy for the visitor (if he arrives) and tell him to go away as the debt is in dispute and if he continues threaten him with thte administration of justice act section 40.Section 2

PUTTING PRESSURE ON DEBTORS OR THIRD PARTIES IS CONSIDERED TO BE OPPRESSIVE

This includes:

· Contacting you too frequently

· Pressurising you to sell property or take out more debt

· Using more than one collection company at the same time or not telling you when your debt has been passed to another company

· Pressurising you to pay in full or in large instalments you cannot afford

· Making threatening gestures or statements

· Ignoring disputes about whether you owe the money

· Trying to embarrass you in public or threatening to tell a third party about your debts such as a neighbour or your family

Don't be intimidated there is nothing that they can do at his stage only try to bully you into paying up so stand your ground .

 

All the best

 

Peter

[mutzi]

I'm not sure about the second paragraph. You should be clear about what you want, drop the 'for example' bit and try something like 'I require a complete and up-to-date statement of account, detailing all activity from the date it was acquired by your company.'

 

I would also read through the guidance your quoting from, there is more to it that charging and you might find it very useful now or in the future.

You'll need adobe acrobat reader to open the file.

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/50F06527-9FC5-4610-B385-999D6E2A8950/0/oft664.pdf

 

Once you've given moorcroft this letter you can check for charges that BT (probably) applied when they still had the account. I couldn't find a specific BT thread but here's a pretty thorough account of claiming late payment charges from telewest: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/telecoms-mobile-fixed-broadband/9306-telewest-10-00-late.html . With BT it might take some time before you get a result, but stick with it.

 

Good luck

[albbyswife]

thanks for advice no one has come knocking tonight which is strange but then again there is always tomorrow!!!!!! i sent the letter before the last reply but did change it slightly again before sending,

 

just another quick question that has been playing on my is that i know moorcroft they bought the debt from bt! should moorcroft send me some kind of letter etc to say that they had bought the debt and if so then would i of neededd to have a new contract of somekind with the actual debt company like i did with bt?, i have read some more of the threads but is quite confusing!!!!!!!!

 

any answers on this would be great

thanks

[mutzi]

BT should have sent you a letter telling you it was sold on. Moorcroft should have stated they bought it initially too.

 

The lack of any sort of contract with moorcroft is exactly why they can't charge you, but even if one existed those charges would still have to be lawful (minimal costs.) The £406 is the maximum you could possibly owe them. What you have to remember is that moorcroft will have bought this debt for peanuts, somewhere on this forum it's stated at between 7% and 12% of the original value so they always profit as long as they manage to collect.

[Peterbard]

just another quick question that has been playing on my is that i know moorcroft they bought the debt from bt! should moorcroft send me some kind of letter etc to say that they had bought the debt and if so then would i of neededd to have a new contract of somekind with the actual debt company like i did with bt?, i have read some more of the threads but is quite confusing!!!!!!!!

 

Yes they should but rarely do

The good old administration of justice acest section 2

 

The credotor should not

· Contacting you too frequently

· Pressurising you to sell property or take out more debt

· Using more than one collection company at the same time or not telling you when your debt has been passed to another company

 

 

 

[Peterbard]

The lack of any sort of contract with moorcroft is exactly why they can't charge you, but even if one existed those charges would still have to be lawful (minimal costs.) The £406 is the maximum you could possibly owe them. What you have to remember is that moorcroft will have bought this debt for peanuts, somewhere on this forum it's stated at between 7% and 12% of the original value so they always profit as long as they manage to collect.

vbrep_register("446401")

 

The thing is that moorcroft are allowed to charge you a reasonable fee in direct proportionto the debt.

However they should tell you what the various amounts are. As Mutzi says they pay just a fraction of what the debt is worth so they a very loath indeed to issue a statement showing what the debt now stands at.

 

Peter

[albbyswife]

hello again

ive had no reply as of yet with moorcroft over account but ive been thinking , about my letter i sent them should i just wait now for a reply or should i send them a cca letter with a postal order of a pound as i never actually said in my letter that i require the deed of assignment (ithink that is what its called ) when moorcroft bought the debt from bt?????? Just worried i have not covered all my options !!!!!! also im sending off for all my bills from bt as well to check charges

 

have i done it right any body help

[albbyswife]

can anybody help with last question??????

 

thanks

[albbyswife]

recieved a reply from moorcroft to my cca saying that they will contact their client and ask for the information as quickly as possible and then the letter continues with that :-

 

''they think it would be of assistant to all parties if we also take this opportunity to ensure that any potential areas of dispute are addressed prior to any possible court action or further investiagation. please could you give an indication of the information you will be providing, when giving evidence to the court or providing information to the relevant statutory authorities in relation to the alleged subject matter of account.

 

please confirm whether, for example when making a statemnet of truth in connection with any court proceedings, you will be giving evidence as to whetther or not you did or did not recieve the goods/credit ordered.

 

please could you provide this information by return. we believe that this is a simple request that will assist in ensuring that all possible areas of dispute are identified as quickly as possible and potential costs and delays kept to a minimum level.''

 

my question is whats this all about ?????

i dispute the ammount,!! as clearly they have added money to just over a hundred pounds in which when i first wrote to them towards the end of december they never replied to my letter , so then i thought it would be best to send a cca at the end of january and this is my first reply from them!!

 

not sure what to reply to them as i havent recieved anything from them yet!! they are about nine days into the 12 day deadline??

 

plus they say to address any dispute prior to any possible court action or further investiagtion but then go on to say they require what im going to provide when giving evidence in court??????

 

my dispute is the different ammount from when bt SOLD them the debt , to them, then adding over hundred pounds to account to collect!!!!!!

 

any help with this matter would be greatly appreicated and help with what i should reply would also be great!!!!

 

thanks:?:

[Peterbard]

HI

 

I would reply to the DCA

 

Please provide the information requested. I do not need to justify this request at this stage as it is my constitutional right, if you do not comply in the required time frame you will be in default. If after 44 days from the orriginal request there is still no response you will be commiting an offence which will be reported for possible criminal prossecution.

No further payments will be made untill this information is made available.I would remind you that under section 77 of the consumer credit act you do not currently have the to right pursue the debt. Also i would remind you that under section 189 the DCA are now obliged to act as the orriginal creditor so it is youseves that will be reported to the OFT for non compliance.

 

Yours

[albbyswife]

UPDATE

 

Moorcroft sent another letter days later saying that in this instance they are unable to produce cca and have now returned the debt to original company (meaning BT!!)

 

so what will happen now???