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    • Claiming For A Breach Of Contract Where You Are Not A Direct Contracting Partner The contract is private to the contracting parties – “Privity” The general rule is that only the direct parties to a contract are allowed to claim if there is a breach. This is a very old rule and it is called “privity of contract” which means that a contract is private to the contracting partners. “Privity”can cause injustice This has caused some difficulties and even some injustice where a third party expecting to benefit from the contract might be expecting to receive something, if one of the parties to the main contract doesn’t fulfil their side of the bargain, you, the third party beneficiary can’t do anything about it - and the contracting party who did keep their promise is the only person who can sue and maybe they simply don’t want to. This could be even more unjust if you are the third party who funded the entire arrangement between the parcel broker and the delivery agent. The parcel was lost. Both the parcel broker and the delivery agent are not out of pocket – only you are out of pocket– but under the “Privity of Contract” rule you are not allowed to make a claim against the delivery company which lost or damaged your parcel. The Law Commission Report on Privity Of Contract And Third Party Rights In 1996 there was a report from the Law commission which recommended that in some circumstances third parties should be able to sue under contract even though they were part of the contract. In particular, the Law commission highlighted this injustice:   [The Person Who Has Suffered the Loss Cannot Sue, While the Person Who Has Suffered No Loss Can Sue]: In a standard situation, the third-party [privity] rule produces the perverse, and unjust, result that the person who has suffered the loss … cannot sue, while the person who has suffered no loss can sue.   As a result, Parliament passed a law called the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 This gives a third party in some circumstances the right to sue for a breach of contract even though they were not a direct contracting party. As a third party, are replacing one of the main parties When the third party uses this third party right, then they have to sue as if they were one of the direct parties to the contract and this means that they are bound by the same terms and conditions of that contract. This means that if it was a consumer contract then they can sue as the consumer with consumer rights. If it was a commercial contract, for instance between a broker and a delivery company, then you have to rely on your commercial rights. Most parcel delivery brokers are in the UK so you can sue the broker directly and this is always the best thing to do. However, there are one or two which are not in the UK. They are outside the jurisdiction of the UK courts and so if you arrange your parcel delivery through a one of those brokers and if your parcel is lost or damaged and if they refuse to reimburse you, suing the broker can be a difficult business and probably impossible. The only thing you can do is to sue the delivery company which lost the parcel but as you didn’t contract directly with them, you will have to rely on your “third party rights”. What the delivery company will say If the delivery company tries to defend the claim, they will probably say that although they did lose the parcel, you don’t have a right to sue them. They will say that you must sue the parcel broker because you made your contract directly with them – but of course we know that that is impossible because your parcel broker isn’t in the UK. You will have to state in your claim form and also explain to the judge that you are entitled under the 1999 Act because it was clear to the broker and to the delivery company that the delivery contract was made specifically for your benefit as the sender of the parcel and also for the benefit of the addressee – who is also a third party – and that it was even you who paid for the delivery anyway. What rights will you use? In a contract where you organised with Packlink, for example, to send a parcel using Evri, Packlink are based in Spain, you would have to sue Evri using the same commercial rights as enjoyed by Packlink. So in a commercial contract instead of relying on the Consumer Rights Act 2015, you would rely on the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 which also requires that a company selling a service must exercise reasonable care and skill and if they don’t then they are in breach. Also, in a commercial contract you would rely on the unfair terms provisions in the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and which includes as an unfair term any attempt to restrict or limit liability without any good reason. If you are using your third party rights to sue on a consumer contract then you would be able to rely on the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Making a small claim as a third party is pretty straightforward The the process for bring a small claim as an entitled third-party is the same as any other small claim and pretty straightforward. The arguments are slightly different – but that’s all             Some examples of people who might be excluded by the “Privity” rule but are saved by their third party rights ·        Your friend takes you on holiday. They organise it and pay for it. Your friend’s holiday is great but your room is damp and rat infested. Your friend doesn’t want to claim against the holiday company. You took time off work for this holiday which you won’t get back but you didn’t have a contract with the holiday company.             You would sue the holiday company as third party consumer and rely on your consumer rights.   ·       Your friend uses a parcel broker based abroad to send you a mobile phone with £500. And the parcel arrives, it contains shoes. Your friend has moved to Australia permanently.           You don’t have a contract with the parcel broker so you would sue them as a third party to a consumer contract and                 rely on your consumer rights   ·        You get taken out for an expensive meal. Your host the table and pays for the meal but you get food poisoning. Your host had a great time and hasn’t actually lost anything.              They have no loss to claim but you don’t have a contract with the restaurant.You would sue as a third party to a                         consumer contract and rely on your consumer rights.   ·        You sell a mobile telephone on eBay and send it to your purchaser using an overseas parcel broker to organise the delivery through a UK delivery company. When the parcel arrives the purchaser finds that it contains some books.                 You sue the parcel delivery company as a third party to a commercial contract and rely on your commercial rights  
    • new subheading under paragraph 25 – The defendant is fully aware of third party beneficiaries new paragraph 26 Any denial by the defendant that they are unaware of the existence of third party beneficiaries to their contract with Packlink would be quite untrue. The defendant routinely sends out notifications to parcel recipients informing them the parcel which they are carrying on behalf of the broker is about to be delivered. Please find examples at – bundle X X X, X X X 26. 1) In the absence of any explanation the defendant’s denial should be disregarded.  but in any event,   If you have a look at the pinned thread at the top of this sub- forum relating to third-party rights, you will find several examples of notifications which have been sent by EVRi to the recipients of parcels warning them that their parcel which is being carried on behalf of QVC, Packlink – et cetera is due to be delivered. I suggest that you use a couple of these as examples of how EVRi is completely aware that there are third-party beneficiaries involved. If EVRi tried to say – "yes, we knew that there was a recipient that we had no idea that there was a sender…" Well, could they really be that stupid? I suggest you incorporate that, make the tweaks which have been suggested by @jk2054 and that's it. That would probably be the final version. You've worked hard on it – but hopefully the constant repetition will mean that you are absolutely fluent if it actually goes to court. EVRi are watching this of course and I don't really expect they are looking forward to having a judgement on this against them so I can imagine that they might reach out to you before the trial and make an offer. Have you paid the hearing fee yet? I don't think you have. I can imagine that they are waiting to see if you pay the hearing fee so they know that you are serious. Of course is not guaranteed but I would expect that they will try to prevent this going to trial. You should hold out for every penny. And if they want to make an offer to you under conditions of confidentiality then you should refuse. Confidentiality is not part of the claim. That something extra. If they try to impose a condition of confidentiality then you should tell them that this would cost them extra. I would say thousand pounds is probably cheap for the trouble that a judgement against them will cause them. Keep us updated of any approaches by EVRi – either on the forum – or by email if you prefer to admin email address. Let's see your final version
    • Hello I’m also going through the same at the moment for £300. Icon went quiet for a month or so but just received another text this morning to say “Notice of likely CCJ/Enforcement due to non-payment”. I’m still ignoring as per all of the threads on this but every time I get a text I still like to have a read up just to check advice hasn’t changed so good to read this thread! Thanks
    • They have now closed the account.
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Natwest overdraft and account withdrawn


Owed man
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Hi everyone

I need some advise from anyone willing to offer and from a relatives experience and high recommendations I think I will certainly get this here 😀

 

Here goes,

 

I have had a current account with Natwest for 10years or more and when i got into financial difficulties I applied for an overdraft around 6 years ago.

 

I could not believe how easy it was and cut a long story short my debt problem continued to spiral, over a few months before i knew it i had continual overdraft increase requests accepted and i now had an overdraft £4000,

 

So for the last 6 years I have just been paying the interest fees on the account which has continually been overdrawn just to try and keep it from exceeding the limit and incurring charges which some months further down the line failed to do and paid the overdraft charges when i could.

 

Over the last 2 months Natwest have been contacting me to settle the overdraft in full which i have not been able to do then suddenly the account was closed and I can not get access with online banking and now they say i have to deal with a DCA  (Moroncroft debt collection) who are now sending me threatening letters.

 

I don't dispute the overdraft debt but i need advice how to go about settling the overdraft and have a few questions?

 

1, I assume that even if the account is in default and Moroncroft have been assigned the debt i should still communicate with Natwest

 

2, I would like to get this debt cleared but i assume there will be plenty of charges on the account and wonder if i can claim them back and would like to know how as I have been told that unfair bank charges can be claimed?

 

3, can i ask Natwest to adjust the account and remove all unfair charges and then have a final amended figure to settle the account and clear the debt

 

Any help will be very much appreciated.

 

Thanks owed

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I'm putting a shout out to my site team colleague @dx100uk who is best placed to advise you on this.

When you applied for your overdraft and then during the overdraft increases, was your credit record with the credit agencies already blighted? Did you have other debts with other organisations?

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@dx100ukwill be along soon - I have to ask though. This wasnt your main account was it? 

 

Do you have another account where your income is paid into? If not - Open one with some one. If you do then this should be a bit easier to deal with. 

Banks are calling in a lot of Overdrafts and tightening their Lending Criteria. Its likely that they issued a 60 day notice to terminate the account and along with that the debt associated it with will need to be settled. 

 

Could try an Irresponsible Lending Claim. May work... But you may find difficulty in it succeeding.

 

We could do with some help from you.

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

**Fko-Filee**

Receptaculum Ignis

 

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Sar 1st

get all the statements from day one.

 

Yes ignore moorcroft totally

 

Dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks fkofilee/ dx 

 

ok , Sar sent to NatWest first I will look up contacts details on the forum and get back here once I have received the statement details.

 

yes this was my main account but I swapped to a new account 3 years ago just in case one day they reduced the overdraft with my wages? Hence I have just been paying overdraft charges for a number of years!!

 

owed

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a copy of your credit file would be a serious game changer if it showed late payments/defaults/lots of existing lending at that time.

 

i've recently succeeded for a neighbour in getting a 2016 £32k overdraft written off under an irresponsible lending complaint.

 

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks fkofilee/ dx 

 

ok , Sar sent to NatWest first I will look up contacts details on the forum and get back here once I have received the statement details.

 

yes this was my main account but I swapped to a new account 3 years ago just in case one day they reduced the overdraft with my wages? Hence I have just been paying overdraft charges for a number of years!!

 

owed

 

Wow dx that would be a game changer?

 

I have used all my free credit file checks up so will have to sign up for 1. Will it give reference to what was happening in the years around the account agreeing the overdrafts? Should I upload a redacted credit file so you can have your thoughts on where it stood at the time ?

 

Owed

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Good job on the account changing, always better to have moved and be aware of what could happen. 

As for the CRA - No dont worry about the credit file entry. 

How many defaults did you have when you applied for an overdraft? 

 

We could do with some help from you.

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

**Fko-Filee**

Receptaculum Ignis

 

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as they do.

 

an sar to natwest will not tell you where your debts were recorded......

 

you will need a copy of credit files at that time for any IRL complaint to ever succeed, 

that will not be in an sar to NW.......

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi everyone

Just had my statements back from Natwest which show constant money going in to cover the over draft charges on a regular monthly basis.

1, Have I got just cause to put in a claim regarding the charges?

2, I have signed up to equifax but i am unable to find out how i get information regarding if i had any defaults for other loans/payday loans at the time the overdraft was obtained which I assume will assist when submitting an irl?

 

Any guidance will be appreciated. 

 

owed

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On 16/12/2022 at 13:47, fkofilee said:

Could try an Irresponsible Lending Claim. May work... But you may find difficulty in it succeeding.

this is what was pointed too earlier , from the sar it will be possible to workout when the OD was applied for and granted. that gives you the date you need credit file history for.

 

you indicate it was about 6yrs ago, so most other credit in existence at the time would have been probably defaulted already, if it was those are removed from a credit file when the default reaches it 6th birthday along with the data you need about it.

 

this is why regularly checking and retaining copies of a credit file is always a worthy move, even if you are not in trouble at that time.

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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you cant go back in time no.

cra files are today.. thats it/.

 

use the fos cisheet and their od int rate. (cell d15)

put in every penalty charge on its individual date

the sheet does the rest

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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i have already told you the spreadsheet to use.

 

you can only reclaim fixed sum penalty fees.

ie returned dd fee £25

letter charge £20

overlimit £25

etc etc

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 3 months later...

Hi Everyone

 

I sent an IRL to Natwest with regards to the multiple overdraft increase acceptance and loan taken out on the current account and this is their redacted reply attached. 

I have now escalated this the FOS and awaiting a response!

 

I have highlighted in red some contradictory statements and also the fact they they say that it is my fault that I used the loan that was applied for whilst being £2600 overdrawn?

 

Any advice will be welcomed.

 

owed

 

IRL reply.pdf

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the fos wont swallow all that baloney!!

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks dx do you think I have a case for IR?

is there anything I need to do or prepare whilst this sits to be processed. Do I inform Natwets that I have passed this on to FOS?

 

owed

Edited by Gracelands
Logged in on wife’s profile
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yes a very good case 

thats a std response 

 

let the FOS do their bit.

it could be months if not a year wait mihd.

 

did you send EVERYTHING in/out to the FOS on say a penstick, or simply a letter?

 

it might have been better to have consulted us first if all you sent was some speculative letter.

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Sorry dx didn’t like to trouble anyone I log I don’t need to?

 

read a few threads at work and then went onto the FOS web site and filled their standard complaint form adding the Natwets response, not sent them anything yet?

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to stop unnecessary fos delays id send them a penstick with every doc or comms to date

you must have a ref no. from the fos already?

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks dx, I received a reply to my complaint from fos on 26/04/23 with the standard email " we are very busy, because we are busy we will only get in touch with you if we can help you, if we can help you we will try to get in touch with you within 7 days but it may take longer"?

 

Unfortunately they have not provided a case number at the moment sorry!

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